To those who pray to Mary...

[Heidi]

I still hear you giving credit to Mary for our salvation instead of Christ because Jesus came from Mary's womb. Is that correct? This only happens when human beings worship anyone other than God. Dividing lines become very fuzzy on who is our saviour. But they don't in born again Christians! We know who our saviour is!We can give all our praises to only one! But keep up your defense of Mary. It only proves my point even more! ;-) The Mary of the catholic church is nothing like the Mary of the bible. In fact, anyone who reads the bible without ever having gone to the catholic church would see how bizarre it is to turn mary into a goddess. The mary of the bible was a human being, not a goddess. The mary of the catholic church has become idolized into a virgin, statues with gold and bronze crowns, and our saviour! This borders on the delusional.

 

[notapseudonym]

If you still hear that you may want to have your ears checked.

 

[Heidi]

If you still hear that you may want to have your ears checked.

"Thus, it would be theologically correct to say that Salvation comes to us through Mary. Christ does come through Mary. Christ is born of Mary, that is how Jesus comes to us... as a MAN. "

And I suggest you take a class in reading comprehension. Notice that catholicxian also says that Jesus was a man instead of the Son of God. This of course is blasphemy. It also conveniently forgets that Jesus was also conceived by the Holy Spirit. But that, of course isn't as important as Mary. It is giving Mary the credit for our salvation and seeing Jesus as not divine. This confirms the Mary worship of the catholic church a lot better than anyone can. ;-)

 

[Confusion]

Heidi, remember, read thoroughly :angel:

Christ is born of Mary, that is how Jesus comes to us... as a MAN

Was not Jesus part Human? The Word Made Flesh. Jesus came it us as a human did he not?
Was he also God? Of course, I'm sure CatholicXian just assumed everyone here at a Christian Forum Board would know what she meant...
I mean, why would anyone want to through every word of hers under a magnifing glass and pick at it...

So I shall do the same to you

Notice that catholicxian also says that Jesus was a man instead of the Son of God. This of course is blasphemy.

How can you speak of blasphemy when you yourself are doing the same.
Scriptures themselves cleary show Jesus as both man and God. How can you say Jesus was not in anyway man? This is spoken repeatedly in Scriptures.
Blasphemer.

See... that is what you did to Xian...

The rest of your post is just, well pure gibberish so I'll leave it alone.

Also, Since you seem so set on "That isn't in Scripture" stance, So once again I link you to the Biblical Challenge i started... Take a shot at it, shouldn't be hard: http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=15853

Also, I once again request that you post direct teachings of a belief then comment on them instead of claiming your opinions to be their teachings. For some odd reason you've ignored my PM on the subject and just... attack myself and a few beliefs upon the request.

Thanks,
Confusion

 

[CatholicXian]

to clear things up on BOTH sides.

Jesus Christ=100% God & at the same time 100% human ( = Christ is FULLY God and FULLY man)

 

[Confusion]

to clear things up on BOTH sides.

Jesus Christ=100% God & at the same time 100% human ( = Christ is FULLY God and FULLY man)

Doesn't matter, heidi has me on ignore so... she won't know what you mean.

 

[CatholicXian]

to clear things up on BOTH sides.

Jesus Christ=100% God & at the same time 100% human ( = Christ is FULLY God and FULLY man)

Doesn't matter, heidi has me on ignore so... she won't know what you mean.

I meant to clarify my position, and to add to Heidi's post (since she left out Christ's humanity)

 

[Heidi]

Well, if you catholics want to make up your own bible about Mary, then be my guest. You haven't produced one phrase of scripture to show that Mary was a virgin all of her life, nor that we should pray to her or bow down to statues in her honor. This is all made up and the catholics know it. So you can disagree with Paul's words about believing a different gospel than he preached at your own peril. It's your souls that are at stake, not mine. I want nothing to do with false gospels, so there's no point in debating this further with you.

 

[Confusion]

...

Could someone please quote this so Heidi can see it?

-------------

Heidi,
As you have said "You haven't produced one phrase of scripture to prove..."
I would like to bring to your attention a Challenge I made in this forum.
Found at:
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=15853

It asks for biblical proof linking the OT and NT together using just OT quotes.

As for one who believes in strictly in Scripture verse, I believe you would find this an interesting challenge.

Please, come and give it a try

Confusion

 

[notapseudonym]

Perpetual Virginity of Mary:
To begin OT - Gen 25:33, Exod 13:2, Ezek 44:2
NT - Mark 15:40; Luke 6:15-16; Matt 10:3, 27:56, John 19:25, Mark 3:31-35; 1 Cor 15:6; luke 2:41-52;

You asked for Bible verses.
But what do these verses have to do with Mary's virginity? Well, a lot. Notice all the men named, we are told who their fathers are. Are these not the men whom you think are Mary's other children and Jesus' brothers?

 

[Heidi]

Mark, 6:3, Isn't this Mary's son and brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon?" So where does the bible say Joseph was married before? Or perhaps Mary had affairs & she was keeping the children of the other men. :o Or perhaps the bible is lying. Those are the only explanations for Jesus's brothers other than they came from Mary & Joseph. So the scripture you produce that tries to show that Mary was a virgin all of her life shows the exact opposite. Insinuating that scripture is lying only leads to more made-up gospels. One lie always leads to another to try to prove the first lie true. ;-) But the truth does not contradict itself.

I know you can be easily fooled but not Jesus's true sheep. We listen to his voice, not his mother's voice, which is why we believe the bible and the catholics do not. All his mother said about Jesus is that he is out of his mind and she wondered why he would be preaching in the temple. That's the Mary of the bible. But in the Mary of your imagination, she can be anything you want her to be, just like the Gnostics believe that Jesus & Mary Magdalene were married.

I only responded to your post because you produced scripture, But your scripture only confirmed my beliefs even more and shows how many more lies you have to make up in order to continue your beliefs. But instead of changing the RCC doctrine, you will try to change the bible. That clearly shows you worship the pope and not God or you would believe that the bible is the word of God. But you don't because it conflicts with the RCC doctrine. And that is where your loyalty is. All cults do the same thing. ;-)

 

[CatholicXian]

Mark, 6:3, Isn't this Mary's son and brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon?" So where does the bible say Joseph was married before? Or perhaps Mary had affairs & she was keeping the children of the other men. :o Or perhaps the bible is lying. Those are the only explanations for Jesus's brothers other than they came from Mary & Joseph.

They are not the ONLY explanations. We have discussed the OT references before that "brother" has a more universal and fraternal meaning in the Scriptures and in Christianity-- it is Western culture which tends to make the term more exclusive.

I only responded to your post because you produced scripture, But your scripture only confirmed my beliefs even more and shows how many more lies you have to make up in order to continue your beliefs. But instead of changing the RCC doctrine, you will try to change the bible. That clearly shows you worship the pope and not God or you would believe that the bible is the word of God. But you don't because it conflicts with the RCC doctrine.

CCC 102 "Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word; his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely: 'You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.'"

CCC 103 "For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord's Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God's Word and Christ's Body."

CCC 104 "In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God." In the sacred books, the Father who is in Heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."

 

[Heidi]

Mark, 6:3, Isn't this Mary's son and brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon?" So where does the bible say Joseph was married before? Or perhaps Mary had affairs & she was keeping the children of the other men. :o Or perhaps the bible is lying. Those are the only explanations for Jesus's brothers other than they came from Mary & Joseph.

They are not the ONLY explanations. We have discussed the OT references before that "brother" has a more universal and fraternal meaning in the Scriptures and in Christianity-- it is Western culture which tends to make the term more exclusive.

I only responded to your post because you produced scripture, But your scripture only confirmed my beliefs even more and shows how many more lies you have to make up in order to continue your beliefs. But instead of changing the RCC doctrine, you will try to change the bible. That clearly shows you worship the pope and not God or you would believe that the bible is the word of God. But you don't because it conflicts with the RCC doctrine.

CCC 102 "Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word; his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely: 'You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.'"

CCC 103 "For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord's Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God's Word and Christ's Body."

CCC 104 "In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God." In the sacred books, the Father who is in Heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."

Sorry, but again your attempts to change scripture to fit the RCC doctrine instead of the other way around won't work.

Mark 3:35, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you." "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. "Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said; "Here are my mother and sisters and brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother,." Jesus had to explain to them what the real meaning of brother and sister and mother was. So it was clear that the disciples didn't already know that or Jesus would never have had to draw the comparison.

Nobody would ever have had to try to dispute this issue if the catholic church hadn't declared Mary a virgin. And since it contradicts scripture, the catholics have to try to invent lies that are so far-fetched, they dig themselves into deepr and deeper pits that will eventually last throughout all of eternity. Since they believe that all popes are from God, they now have to justify murder that previous popes committed as being from God, or selling forgiveness for money, or worshipping statues, praying to people. They justify all pagan practices simply because they think the pope is God. Oh they say he isn't God because they know it's wrong to think so, but their behavior contradicts this. They will defend the pope at all costs, even to the extent of changing the bible. To catholics, the popes simply cannot be wrong. That shows that they do indeed think of him as God. ;-)

 

[cj]

But there, you see, is a crucial difference in wording.

And yet, not in motive.

Its the motive that God considers, and the motive of the RC institution is to deceive so that a hierarchy can be established among the believing body.

This is why scripture directs us to view the fruit.

Your claim was that Catholics believe we are saved BY Mary...the quote you provided says that salvation comes to us THROUGH Mary.

Which is not found in scripture. Therefore, taking the liberty to add in that which is not there strongly suggests that one believes it a necessary part of the formula...... which in truth it isn't.

The simple fact is, by their testimony, many RC followers declare that their salvation is of Mary.

And this is proved in your own speaking below.....

Mary contained within her the treasury of all good things (namely Christ).....

This is not true, in fact, it is nothing short than a gross lie.

Mary's person is the same as any other human, her person is made up of body, soul, and spirit. Jesus was carried by Mary in a physical way only, in her womb, and the physical aspect of a man is the least of their person. Nothing of His divinity was in the other two aspects of Mary's being, her soul or her spirit. Thus to say that Mary contained within her the treasury of all good things is a gross exaggeration of the actual reality.

..... and it was through her obedience to God's Will that salvation (Christ) came to us by the mystery of the Incarnation.

This is also a gross lie.

Mary, as with any other human being, was completely dependant on the mercy of God. Her obedience issued out of God's mercy towards her. God gave her life out of her mother's womb, God fed her and clothed her and housed her. God chose her home, her environment, her relatives and friends. It is God who was the source of anything positive that came out of Mary, as scripture says, "For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure."

How much you would deny God's word, that you may try to uphold a false doctrine.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

A syllogism.

Christ=Salvation. This we will agree on, correct?

This is all that is necessary to agree on. What remains to be gained is simply the reality of this in relation to creation.

Christ (Salvation) was born through an instrument of God's choosing, Mary, correct?

Incorrect, in its gross misleading.

Concerning the birth of Jesus, Mary was a clay vessel that, as an instrument, was useful to God in Him gaining the human aspect of His Son.

Salavation, the risen Christ, had a glorified body that was such out of God and not Mary.

The fact is, the risen Christ has nothing in Him of Mary.

Thus, it would be theologically correct to say that Salvation comes to us through Mary.

No it would not.

Salvation is a matter of the risen Christ entering into our spirit and regenerating it with resurrection life. This only became a possibility after Jesus had died on the cross, been buried, risen, ascended, and descended as the life-giving Spirit that enters into our spirit as we believe.

Christ does come through Mary.

No, Christ comes through the Holy Spirit and was only manifested in the flesh.

The human aspect of Christ, which was in its unglorified state and thus was passing away (or in death) is what this Christ was manifested in while He walked this earth through incarnation and human living (John 1:1, 14). In the flesh means in the likeness, in the fashion, of man (Rom. 8:3; Phil. 2:7-8). Christ appeared to people in the form of man (2 Cor. 5:16), yet He was God manifested in man.

Christ is born of Mary, that is how Jesus comes to us... as a MAN.

Absolutely........ as the man who died on the cross, but not as the One is resurrected and seated on the throne of God, and that comes to live in us.

A true, human of flesh and blood... born of a woman chosen by God. Salvation (Christ) comes through Mary ONLY in the sense of Theotokos.. Mary's motherhood. NOTHING in virtue of Mary, but EVERYTHING in virtue of Jesus Christ, the Savior (... Salvation).

Absolutely..... but once again, Jesus died on the cross.

But, your mentioning the matter of virtue is interesting...... yes, Mary had nothing in herself, everything was of Christ, even her own salvation, based on the fact that this Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.

A question..... do you know what virtue really is?

In love,
cj

 

[Steve]

I understand what Catholic XT-ian is saying, cuz I heard it all my life.

Certainly isn't very scriptural, Cath. But then, neither is the RCC when you get down to it.

It's all this extra-Biblical stuff that is propounded as doctrine. All graces do NOT flow through the hands of Mary. Oy, such rank heresy!!! Even the Orthodox don't go that far, for Heaven's sakes!

The late Pope received a petition from, I think, 11 million people who wanted Mary named as Co-Redemptrix. I think if that happened, that would have been the greatest of all heresies. Fortunately, he backed down.

Too bad he didn't back down on a number of other things, like kissing the Koran. And saying that anamists and Hindus and Muslims and Catholics wworship the same god.

I. Don't. Think. So.

 

[CatholicXian]

The fact is, the risen Christ has nothing in Him of Mary.

Then Jesus was no longer human? How does that work?

Christ does come through Mary.

No, Christ comes through the Holy Spirit and was only manifested in the flesh.

The human aspect of Christ, which was in its unglorified state and thus was passing away (or in death) is what this Christ was manifested in while He walked this earth through incarnation and human living (John 1:1, 14). In the flesh means in the likeness, in the fashion, of man (Rom. 8:3; Phil. 2:7-8). Christ appeared to people in the form of man (2 Cor. 5:16), yet He was God manifested in man.

Christ's flesh came from Mary. My statement was not to the exclusion of the Holy Spirit.

Christ is born of Mary, that is how Jesus comes to us... as a MAN.

Absolutely........ as the man who died on the cross, but not as the One is resurrected and seated on the throne of God, and that comes to live in us.

So then there are 2 Jesus'?? How does that work? How does Jesus cease to be human after the Resurrection? Does this imply that He was not fully God before the Resurrection in your view, cj?

But, your mentioning the matter of virtue is interesting...... yes, Mary had nothing in herself, everything was of Christ, even her own salvation, based on the fact that this Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.

A question..... do you know what virtue really is?

Is this something of a Socratic question? ;-) "Habitual and firm disposition to do the good"--however, that was not the sense in which I was using the word in my statement. In saying that everything was in virtue of Christ, I was saying that everything was effective/by the power of Christ.

 

[CatholicXian]

It's all this extra-Biblical stuff that is propounded as doctrine. All graces do NOT flow through the hands of Mary. Oy, such rank heresy!!! Even the Orthodox don't go that far, for Heaven's sakes!

Secondarily. All grace is first won by Christ on the Cross.

The late Pope received a petition from, I think, 11 million people who wanted Mary named as Co-Redemptrix. I think if that happened, that would have been the greatest of all heresies. Fortunately, he backed down.

Too bad he didn't back down on a number of other things, like kissing the Koran. And saying that anamists and Hindus and Muslims and Catholics wworship the same god.

Mary as Co-Remptrix does NOT make her another redeemer, or put Mary on par with God. Quick Latin lesson: "co" means "WITH" (NOT 'equal') "trix" means "woman", thus, "CoRedemptrix" translates to "woman WITH the Redeemer". JPII did not back down, he referred to Mary as CoRedemptrix, I think at least 7 times--furthermore, the push is for the dogma, the teaching is already Catholic doctrine and therefore already must be ascribed to by anyone professing themselves to be Catholic. Now, of course, there is only one Redeemer, we (as Catholics) DO distinguish between what is unique of Jesus and secondary to Mary… We see Mary intimately involved (through the grace of God) in Redemption (yes, it is accomplished by Christâ€â€obviouslyâ€â€but Mary is there, intimately participating), in Genesis 3:15 we see that the woman (Mary) is intimately involved in the crushing of the serpent's head, and in Luke 1:38 Mary's "yes" to God's plan initiates her participation in the mission with her Sonâ€â€the body she gave to Christ is the instrument of Redemption (see Hebrews 10:10). And this role of Mary is confirmed a short while later in the words of Simeon (Luke 2:35)â€â€the presentation in the temple is a foreshadowing of Calvary, where a mother offers her Son to the Father (the temple is a place of sacrifice). At the foot of the Cross, Mary consents to the immolation of her Sonâ€â€she gives up her right as Mother to protect her offspring, she not only endured this, but positively consented to it for the Redemption of all humanity by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is Redeemer, Mary is the "woman WITH the Redeemer" as we see her there at the foot of the Cross.

 

[guibox]

Mary as Co-Remptrix does NOT make her another redeemer, or put Mary on par with God. Quick Latin lesson: "co" means "WITH" (NOT 'equal') "trix" means "woman", thus, "CoRedemptrix" translates to "woman WITH the Redeemer"...We see Mary intimately involved (through the grace of God) in Redemption (yes, it is accomplished by Christâ€â€obviouslyâ€â€but Mary is there, intimately participating)...At the foot of the Cross, Mary consents to the immolation of her Sonâ€â€she gives up her right as Mother to protect her offspring, she not only endured this, but positively consented to it for the Redemption of all humanity by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is Redeemer, Mary is the "woman WITH the Redeemer" as we see her there at the foot of the Cross.

So what is the sense of action to proclaim Mary as 'a woman with the Redeemer'? Hasn't she always been? Hasn't John been the 'disciple with the Redeemer'? I don't think your claim is what most Catholics believe. You position is redundant if there is no action or significance to 'proclaiming' Mary as 'co-redemptrix'. Is it a proclamation of Mary's indirect influence on salvation by bearing the Christ? Why proclaim it or make it dogma? Why does she need to be officially recognized in this capacity if it is as harmless as you say it is?

No, I think it goes deeper than that. Your own words speak for the majority of Catholics, and not your explanation:

We see Mary intimately involved (through the grace of God) in Redemption (yes, it is accomplished by Christâ€â€obviouslyâ€â€but Mary is there, intimately participating)

This quote tells me that to be a 'co-redemptrix' means to have a part in the process of salvation, be it directly or indirectly. This is false.

Other than bearing Christ, Mary has no involvement in salvation.

 

[Steve]

I agree, Gui.