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Tongues

..heard it in their own language...

And in addition, in every single Bible occurrence of someone being gifted with tongues, it was known language where others understood it. And that's the purpose of the gift of tongues, to overcome the language barrier, so others can understand what is being said about Jesus and the gospel.:thumbsup
 
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

I know angel can be messenger it isn't always. I would think in this verse to say men and messengers would be kinda redundant.

I do agree with much of what you post.


Although I will not set here and allow generations of family to be called criminals against God, with out speaking up. People who i know to have been blessed of God, who served, who love the Lord. Maybe misguided, maybe fooled, maybe right.

Those are some harsh words you use on fellow Christians. We all know we are all sinners saved only by His Grace/Mercy.

Sorta brings to mind the words of our Lord

Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

I agree. It's so easy to stand on a soap box and CONDEMN, CONDEMN, CONDEMN, but how many will come here and stand on a soap box and CONFESS, CONFESS, CONFESS, their own wrong doings?

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
 
And in addition, in every single Bible occurrence of someone being gifted with tongues, it was known language where others understood it. And that's the purpose of the gift of tongues, to overcome the language barrier, so others can understand what is being said about Jesus and the gospel.:thumbsup
You will get no argument from me.

TS, please check your PMs. Thanks.
 
In addition to this tongues issue I would like to add something else.

Why would the Holy Spirit seek to speak through a person in sounds that are meaningless to all who listen? If the gift of tongues is to edify, which it is, why would it not manifest itself in the language of those present, that all might be enlightened and thereby benefited?

Let me ask you, what is the true purpose of the gift of tongues?

It is not their purpose to work a change in the person's life. They are, rather, the work of the Spirit through him for the instruction and salvation of others. Yet in the Pentecostal movement tongues is being grossly misused as a self-edification tool and others are even taught that they aren't born of the Holy Spirit unless they talk in gibberish tongues and some Pentecostal movements even have classes to teach others to talk in gibberish..and that's about as evil as you can get!:nono2

They provide power for witnessing..to lead others to Jesus and share the Gospel..it's not so a whole bunch of people can stand in a room and talk gibberish amongst themselves!

The true purpose of the gift of tongues - to edify and instruct unbelievers in their own language - is not being served by the gibberish of the modern "tongues" movement. Read 1Cor 14:22.

When Jesus sent His followers to the world with the commission of proclaiming the wonderful story of salvation, He marvelously equipped them to communicate that message through the gift of "understandable tongues." Those who heard them speak took note of them that they had been with Jesus. (See Acts 4:13.) It was needed in order to overcome the language barrier.

The Bible teaches that it is a gift, and must be received by faith. Paul's doctrine is "that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Galatians 3:14 It is by faith, not by feeling. In claiming the promise of forgiveness, we do not demand a sign from God that He has fulfilled His word, like Pentecostals do when they demand everyone speaks in gibberish tongues to prove they are saved and have the Holy Spirit. We know it is done because He said it would be. In the same way, we should claim the promise of the Spirit by faith, not requiring some special evidence from God that He kept His promise. By demanding signs and evidence people are doubting the Word of God.

Acts 2:9-11 records sixteen different language groups who were present as the Spirit-filled disciples stepped outside the house to start witnessing.

Here is a simple description of the true gift of tongues. It is not the uttering of some ecstatic language of heaven. The tongues were real languages that people could understand, and every person of every race was edified and enlightened by hearing the gospel preached in his OWN mother tongue and was led to JESUS as a result. It could be UNDERSTOOD!

On certain occasions it was needed in order to overcome the language barrier.

Subsequently, at Corinth, the gift began to be misused to such a degree that it was creating confusion in the church. Paul had to devote a full chapter of his first letter to the Corinthian church to correcting the problem

Let us take a close look at 1 Corinthians 14, in which the tongues problem is brought into focus. Over half of the verses in this chapter mention the words edify, understanding, learning, or teach. It is obvious that the Corinthian church was not using the gift as it was supposed to be used. Over and over Paul urged that tongues be used only to teach the barbarian, unbeliever, or unlearned. Apparently some were creating great confusion by speaking any foreign language they knew, even while others were talking, and also when no one present could understand the language they spoke.

The burden of the entire chapter is that no one use the gift of tongues except to edify someone who could not be reached otherwise. Interpreting of tongues was also to be utilized only for instructing those who could not understand without a translation.

1Cor 14:
Verse 4, "edifieth the church."
Verse 5, "except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying."
Verse 6, "except I shall speak to you ... by knowledge."
Verse 7, "except they give a dis-tinction in the sounds ..."
Verse 8, "if the trumpet give an uncertain sound ..."
Verse 9, "except ye utter ... words easy to be understood."
Verse 11, "if I know not the meaning of the voice ..."
Verse 12, "seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church."
Verse 13, "pray that he may interpret."
Verse 14, "my understanding is unfruitful."
Verse 15, "Pray with the under- standing ..."
Verse 16, "seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest."
Verse 17, "the other is not edified."
Verse 19, "that I might teach others."
Verse 20, "be not children in understanding."
Verse 22, "tongues are for a sign ... to them that believe not."
Verse 23, "unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"
Verse 26, "Let all things be done unto edifying."
Verse 27, "And let one interpret."
Verse 28, "If there be no interpreter, let him keep silence."
Verse 30, "Let the first hold his peace."
Verse 31, "that all may learn ..."
Verse 33, "For God is not the author of confusion."
Verse 34, "Let your women keep silence."
Verse 35, "if they will learn anything ..."
Verse 40, "Let all things be done decently and in order."

Those who read this chapter of 1cor 14 for the purpose of finding ecstatic utterance can locate a couple of verses which seem to gave them support. But when those verses are studied in the context of all the rest of the chapter, and with an actual foreign known language in mind, they all can be seen to harmonize. Paul's discourse here is built around his contention that "tongues are a sign ... to them that believe not." Verse 22.

Why would the Holy Spirit seek to enlighten or instruct someone in truth by going through all the process of a strange tongue and translation when the listener could understand plain English to begin with? If the gift of tongues is for edifying the unbeliever, how perverse and evil it seems just to talk among believers in a garble of words whose meaning must depend on the absolute veracity of another believer, whose "interpretation" provides no objective test for accuracy.

Be very careful folks! This unknown/gibberish tongues is not a true gift from God, but is Satan's counterfeit tongues! Be very careful as when you speak in unknown tongues you are CURSING God and not knowing it.

I want to share with you a true story. There was a women involved in the Pentecostal gibberish tongue movement and she has since left and share in a book about an experience. She says; There was a person talking in unknown tongues, and another went to that person and addressed the spirit and said; "In Jesus name I ask you what have you got to say about Jesus"? Then the person who was talking in gibberish tongues started to CURSE God in English.

So there we have it.. this Pentecostal gibberish tongues movement is NOT of God but is directly from Satan and is Satan's counterfeit tongues!
 
Please show more respect to those who are Pentecostal on this board. There is no need to be so offensive and rude. Not to mention the fallacies of some of your arguments. Very conveniently, it would seem, you left out verses 2-4a, 14a, 15a,c.
 
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If we can't discuss this in an objective manner and without name calling like evil and perverse concerning otherwise Godly and Bible believing believers, we're just going to call it a day and lock down the thread.

I disagree with this movement (I'm also against the Latter Day Rain movement) and have discussed and debated this topic many times and never once had to resort to such names. Scripture supporting your case is all ones needs. God's word and truth can stand up against any scrutiny. :yes
 
Please show more respect to those who are Pentecostal on this board. There is no need to be so offensive and rude. Not to mention the fallacies of some of your arguments. Very conveniently, it would seem, you left out verses 2-4a, 14a, 15a,c.

verses 2-4a, 14a, 15a,c do not take over the context of the chapter to teach that gibberish and unknown tongues is a biblical principle. Did Jesus or the Disciples walk around in large areas talking gibberish amongst themselves? Did they? If not, why then seeing you teach it's a biblical principle?

Was Stephen showing "respect" when he stood up and corrected the false teachers? Was Paul? Was John the Baptist? Was Jesus?

Many people claim they have been "disrespected and offended" just because someone has corrected their beliefs. The truth is the truth, no matter how many people feel it's disrespectful or offensive. Muslims also tell me when I share to them about Jesus that I am being disrespectful and offending them. But truth is truth, and will continue to be shared, no matter who is offended and no matter who thinks it's disrespectful. God's truth will continue!:thumbsup

NOTE: Notice carefully, I am addressing a "system and theological belief" and not calling any individuals evil! Most people get all emotionally charged up and make false accusations as a result. In fact, Mat 18:4, God calls his people out of Babylon. Notice the verse says, COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE..indicating that God has HIS children in an false and evil system. So that's what I do, I address the evil and false systems, not the individuals!

Only a mature Christian can see that difference...and immature Christians cannot stand being challenged and resort to making false accusations instead. I hope the admins are wise enough to see this difference.
 
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1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

I know angel can be messenger it isn't always. I would think in this verse to say men and messengers would be kinda redundant.

I do agree with much of what you post.


Although I will not set here and allow generations of family to be called criminals against God, with out speaking up. People who i know to have been blessed of God, who served, who love the Lord. Maybe misguided, maybe fooled, maybe right.

Those are some harsh words you use on fellow Christians. We all know we are all sinners saved only by His Grace/Mercy.

Sorta brings to mind the words of our Lord

Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

1Co 13:1 has nothing to do with speaking in gibberish tongues. And notice in every instance in Bible where an angel appeared to people they always spoke in KNOWN LANGUAGES! And so did Jesus and the Disciples and the gift of tongues is for unbelievers to hear the good news in their native tongue and not for believers!

1 Corinthians 14:22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

I have read out 1 Corinthians 14:22 to Pentecostals before and I have seen some of them get so angry their faces turn red. Pentecostals do not like 1 Corinthians 14:22.

And may I ask you a question... if you were there when Stephen stood up and called the false teachers, "YOU STIFF NECKED HYPOCRITES", would you have accused Stephen for being out of line? Answer honestly. But before you answer, realise the Bible says Stephen was filled with the Holy Spirit at the time.

I address false doctrine, and there is no doubt that Pentecostal tongue movement is a false doctrine. Now I realise many Pentecostals will get very upset and offended by this, and will even resort to falsely claiming I am calling them evil, because they are so emotionally upset, that they will resort to making false accusations. But my reasons in exposing the Pentecostal tongues movement is to help others not be deceived, and let me make something very clear.. I believe there are many of God's children in the Pentecostal movement..but God is calling them all OUT of the false system and false doctrines.

And notice, not once have I ever called a Pentecostal evil as I was falsely accused of doing. I am talking about doctrines, Christian movements, methods of teaching Bible, systems and theological teachings.
 
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verses 2-4a, 14a, 15a,c do not take over the context of the chapter to teach that gibberish and unknown tongues is a biblical principle.
But they are still very much a part of the context. They don't completely agree with your position which is why you left them out.

TruthSeeker2012 said:
Did Jesus or the Disciples walk around in large areas talking gibberish amongst themselves? Did they? If not, why then seeing you teach it's a biblical principle?
Why do you presume to know that all tongues are "gibberish"? Could it not also be the case that there are languages being spoken that you just don't know? Of course that can be the case, which is why your argument here is fallacious.

TruthSeeker2012 said:
Was Stephen showing "respect" when he stood up and corrected the false teachers? Was Paul? Was John the Baptist? Was Jesus?
Do not think that you are anything like them.

Many people claim they have been "disrespected and offended" just because someone has corrected their beliefs. The truth is the truth, no matter how many people feel it's disrespectful or offensive. Muslims also tell me when I share to them about Jesus that I am being disrespectful and offending them. But truth is truth, and will continue to be shared, no matter who is offended and no matter who thinks it's disrespectful. God's truth will continue!:thumbsup
First, you are presuming you are correct. Second, based on that presumption you are calling things evil that you probably shouldn't be.

TruthSeeker2012 said:
NOTE: Notice carefully, I am addressing a "system and theological belief" and not calling any individuals evil! Most people get all emotionally charged up and make false accusations as a result. In fact, Mat 18:4, God calls his people out of Babylon. Notice the verse says, COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE..indicating that God has HIS children in an false and evil system. So that's what I do, I address the evil and false systems, not the individuals!
"Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks," yes? Calling what certain adherents do and say evil, is akin to calling them evil.

TruthSeeker2012 said:
Only a mature Christian can see that difference...and immature Christians cannot stand being challenged and resort to making false accusations instead. I hope the admins are wise enough to see this difference.
Ah, poisoning the well while you're at it too. Be careful who you call mature and immature.
 
But they are still very much a part of the context. They don't completely agree with your position which is why you left them out.


Why do you presume to know that all tongues are "gibberish"? Could it not also be the case that there are languages being spoken that you just don't know? Of course that can be the case, which is why your argument here is fallacious.


Do not think that you are anything like them.


First, you are presuming you are correct. Second, based on that presumption you are calling things evil that you probably shouldn't be.


"Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks," yes? Calling what certain adherents do and say evil, is akin to calling them evil.


Ah, poisoning the well while you're at it too. Be careful who you call mature and immature.

1. I disagree! Those verses say nothing about talking in gibberish to yourself or to others. In fact Bible says that if nobody can interpret the tongues, then to stay silent! "If there be no interpreter, let him keep silence." So a room full of Pentecostals talking in gibberish tongues where nobody can understand them or interpret them is going against Scripture.

2. Did Jesus and Disciples talk in gibberish tongues for all to see and hear?

3. Did an angel ever appear that began talking in gibberish tongues to people where nobody could understand them?

4. What is the purpose of the gift of tongues? To lead people to Jesus or for self-edification?

5. Do you accept this verse? 1 Corinthians 14:22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers...

6. NOT EVERYONE receives the same gift according to Bible, NOT EVERYONE will receive the gift of tongues, So a room full of Pentecostals who are ALL speaking tongues is not biblical!

7. Every single occurrence of tongues in the Bible was KNOWN LANGUAGES! It was given to overcome the language barrier so people could share the Good News with people of different languages.

8. The gifts were never given as a purpose to work a change in the person's life. They are, rather, the work of the Spirit through him for the instruction and salvation of others. This is not being served in the Pentecostal tongues movement.

9. Do you believe that a person is not born of the Holy Spirit unless they talk in tongues? yes or no?
 
1. I disagree! Those verses say nothing about talking in gibberish to yourself or to others. In fact Bible says that if nobody can interpret the tongues, then to stay silent! "If there be no interpreter, let him keep silence." So a room full of Pentecostals talking in gibberish tongues where nobody can understand them or interpret them is going against Scripture.

2. Did Jesus and Disciples talk in gibberish tongues for all to see and hear?

3. Did an angel ever appear that began talking in gibberish tongues to people where nobody could understand them?

4. What is the purpose of the gift of tongues? To lead people to Jesus or for self-edification?

5. Do you accept this verse? 1 Corinthians 14:22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers...

6. NOT EVERYONE receives the same gift according to Bible, NOT EVERYONE will receive the gift of tongues, So a room full of Pentecostals who are ALL speaking tongues is not biblical!

7. Every single occurrence of tongues in the Bible was KNOWN LANGUAGES! It was given to overcome the language barrier so people could share the Good News with people of different languages.

8. The gifts were never given as a purpose to work a change in the person's life. They are, rather, the work of the Spirit through him for the instruction and salvation of others. This is not being served in the Pentecostal tongues movement.

9. Do you believe that a person is not born of the Holy Spirit unless they talk in tongues? yes or no?
Please address my points.
 
Please address my points.

I already did. Just because you didn't like my answers, is not my fault. You cannot keep asking me to address your points till you get the answer you want.

Now please stop sidestepping and address my questions. Thank you.
 
I already did. Just because you didn't like my answers, is not my fault. You cannot keep asking me to address your points till you get the answer you want.

Now please stop sidestepping and address my questions. Thank you.
I'm not sidestepping. Saying "I disagree" and posting a bunch of questions does not mean that you have addressed my points. You are continuing to presume certain things that you really shouldn't.
 
I'm not sidestepping. Saying "I disagree" and posting a bunch of questions does not mean that you have addressed my points. You are continuing to presume certain things that you really shouldn't.

You said, "But they are still very much a part of the context." And I replied, "I disagree". I don't believe they are part of a gibberish context at all. And at the end of the day, we need to look towards the Angels in the Bible and Jesus and His Disciples..and they ALL spoke in known languages and never did an Angel or Jesus or the Disciples talk in gibberish to people. That's proof enough for me.:thumbsup

Now please answer my questions, Thank you.

1. Did Jesus and Disciples talk in gibberish tongues for all to see and hear?

2. Did an angel ever appear that began talking in gibberish tongues to people where nobody could understand them?

3. What is the purpose of the gift of tongues? To lead people to Jesus or for self-edification?

4. Do you accept this verse? 1 Corinthians 14:22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers... If yes, then what does this verse mean and what is it teaching us?

5. Do you believe that a person is not born of the Holy Spirit unless they talk in tongues? yes or no?
 
The subject of "tongues" is difficult for some because they become almost wholly subjective about it rather than what the Bible teaches about it.
 
The subject of "tongues" is difficult for some because they become almost wholly subjective about it rather than what the Bible teaches about it.

Amen.:thumbsup

They follow what they have been conditioned to believe, and do not study the Bible for themselves to realise that the gibberish tongues is not from Scripture at all, and as a result, they believe gibberish tongues not because of Scripture but because of eisegesis.
 
I will not question the sincerity of those I do not know, but "tongues" are the easyist to counterfeit.
 
Amen.:thumbsup

They follow what they have been conditioned to believe, and do not study the Bible for themselves to realise that the gibberish tongues is not from Scripture at all, and as a result, they believe gibberish tongues not because of Scripture but because of eisegesis.
This goes both ways. Many/most of those who don't believe in tongues have been conditioned to believe they are false and as such they interpret the Bible incorrectly.
 
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