total depravity

[reba]

Eventide

I would add that He didn't choose us.. but that He chose us in Christ, and we know that we were placed into the body of Christ AFTER we heard the gospel, and AFTER we believed it. We didn't believe after we were regenerated, we were regenerated after we believed..

The dead man good ol partying Joe rose up out of his death in sin all by himself? Got himself cleaned up enough so God could/would regenerate him?

When i read your paragraph above that is what i see. Do i have your meaning confused? if So in what way?

 

[Eventide]

Eventide i tried to tell you what you asked.. Can /will you see if you can make me understand what you mean with this quote/

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Thanks

Reba.. I was going to start a thread concerning this although I will not have a lot of time to respond over the next couple weeks.. the basic jist of it is this..

Peter tells us that Paul writes some things that are 'hard to be understood'.. and I believe that election is one of these things..

ALL Election is IN CHRIST for one simple reason.. HE IS the elect of God, the chosen one in whom He delights..

NONE, zero, notta, are chosen in Adam.. every last one condemned in the flesh..

Flesh gives birth to the flesh.. Spirit gives birth to the Spirit..

Paul teaches us clearly that from the beginning God chose us for a reason.. sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.. this ties in perfectly to Eph 1:13.. that it was after hearing the gospel and then after we believed, that God places us into CHRIST..

We're members of HIS BODY.. and that is why we are the elect.. because we're in HIM.. the one who is the elect. Not because God unconditionally chose some and not others.. He chooses ALL in Christ for He is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world..

Think about it Reba.. God tells all that if they will come after Him that they must DENY THEMSELVES, take up their cross and follow HIM.. for if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it.. and if we lose if for HIM and the gospel that we shall save it.. Paul tells us that we are crucified with Christ and nevertheless we live.. YET NOT I he says, but CHRIST liveth in me..

Now in all seriousness.. who would think that God is choosing them rather than Christ ?

 

[Eventide]

Eventide



The dead man good ol partying Joe rose up out of his death in sin all by himself? Got himself cleaned up enough so God could/would regenerate him?

When i read your paragraph above that is what i see. Do i have your meaning confused? if So in what way?

Where's the gospel come from Reba.. from Joe's own self or from God.. ? Where's the Holy Spirit's conviction come from Reba, from Joe or from within himself ?

What part of this don't you agree with.. it's the word of God.. that we trusted in Christ AFTER hearing the GOSPEL, and that AFTER we believed, God sealed us with the Holy Spirit of promise.

 

[ivdavid]

IF all men have the choice to either accept or reject the free gift of salvation in Christ.. then how does it imply that those who DO believe are better than those who do not..?

What prevents one from making the right choice? What enables one to make the right choice? I'd say sin prevents us and God alone enables us to make that choice itself. Why would you want to argue against what good I claim God to be doing in man and instead attribute such good to man himself - shouldn't God increase and man decrease? Doesn't it magnify the love and mercy of God that He would save us even when we didn't seek Him nor choose Him? What do you gain by denying this and what do you stand to lose by conceding this?

Again, is the flesh able to obey the commandments of God in the Gospel?

On the other hand.. IF I was allowed to believe and others are not allowed to believe.. as in your case.. then THAT would certainly be special.

Be specific - allowed to believe by whom? Not allowed to believe by what? If you think I'm saying that God does not allow people to believe - then you're quite mistaken. It is sin in the flesh that does not allow people to believe - emphasis on the flesh. That's why one needs a new nature to overcome sin - a regenerated nature. Follows, right?

How about the rich man who walked away from the LORD..

And why didn't we walk away? Are we inherently better than the rich man to have made the right choice there? Have we made the right choices in our life until that point in time to find us equipped enough to have more love for the Lord than for money or any other heart-hardening sin? If so, aren't these then the traits of goodness within us which could be said to be lacking in people like that rich man? Can you see the implications of your position?

another simple biblical fact is that I must believe in order to be saved..

True. But believe what? What must one believe to be saved?

So you're saying that I'm being dishonest ?

Well, you do know what my concern is. The good samaritan chose to help the victim while the others didn't choose to - the samaritan's choice is considered good while the others' is considered evil. Every such choice entails a good and an evil. Similarly, choosing to obey the Gospel is good and choosing not to is evil. I'm simply asking what the differentiating factor is that resulted in the believers committing this good while the others committed evil, given that both these groups of people contain the exact same sinful fleshly nature. The only available answers are that these people did such good out of an inherent goodness or that these people manifested the good work done in them by God alone. What is your pick - A simple and direct answer would do. Or perhaps you're not sure and are waiting for God to lead you into truth. Can you specify which one it is so we can bring closure to this line of discussion - or are we going to continue rephrasing the same stuff in various other ways?

I cannot in all good honesty subscribe to a view that would put us back under the law of works and apart from grace.

 

[reba]

Eventide thanks for trying....( to help me understand your thoughts)
thanks for responding

I believe our names are written in Lamb's book of life.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

This tells me when the names were written.

His Book Christ's book Yes in Him..

To me Lazarus would have never rose from his grave had Christ not called him. Lazarus heard with his dead ears because of who was doing the calling. Jesus didn't call out " all you guys who are int he graves wake up" He chose Lazarus.
Because of the power of God because He is the creator of all life Lazarus had to come forth. I do not believe Lazarus had a choice to disobey God's command to come forth.

We will just go back and forth with this so i will go away for a while again.

I am thankful we there are brothers and sister in the Lord who can be family and not always agree. IT proves to me Christians are not an cult amongst other things. God Bless

 

[Eventide]

Eventide thanks for trying....( to help me understand your thoughts)
thanks for responding

You're welcome Reba..