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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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total depravity
- Thread starter jasoncran
- Start date
Are we going for a ride?
Theodore A. Jones
Member
Are you asking what is in common to either camp?
Theodore A. Jones
Member
Yeah ur right. Everything would be. Happy?
Don't tell me there's something wrong with happy? Or perhaps some people are not happy unless they are finding something wrong. That certainly would explain the Calvinist Arminian feud. Two men facing each other arguing over which way is left.
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francisdesales
Member
I think you enjoy this Joe.
jasoncran
Member
not really. in fact not even close. i for the record dont buy into osas , and save less then six months while on this forum in my 15 plus year walk i havent believed in osas as most of the home churches that i went to dont believe in osas.the current home church doesnt.
jasoncran
Member
mondar seldom did we agree on calvin but i am not afraid to learn the difference as well one would gain and not loose by simply looking to the bible and see what is the closest to the truth. while i am not in agreement with your camp. i know better then to say all reformers are elitist. many are indeed humbled.
i listen to any pastor whom the holy spirit uses and lately the deepest biblical truth is coming from a calvinist pastor. he is preaching on jonah and man i will never look at the book the same and its in short the gospel. we are so much sinner and God is so full of mercy and grace towards us.
but i guess to eventide that means tullian is very prideful. those are his words paraphrased. he even went on to say that we could spend years(eons) on this earth and still never be as holy as god.
elitist indeed.
Well, we will see about the "welcome."
The first text I would present (but by no means the only) would be 1 John 5:1. But in using that text I have a problem (unless you can read some greek). Let me first quote the first part of the sentence in both English and Greek.
NAS---1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God:
GNT 1Jn 5:1 πας ο πιστευων οτι ιησους εστιν ο χριστος εκ του θεου γεγεννηται
I have bolded two words in Greek. The 2nd one is the perfect tense of "begotten." I mention that it is a perfect tense verb because it places the action as a past event with present consequences. It is generally translated by the english verb of being... is begotten, however the English term "is" does not adequately express the past tense of the greek verb. The english participle "pas O pisteuwn" speaks of all who believe, or everyone who believes. The present tense participle is the nominative subject of the sentence. I mention that the subject of the sentence is present tense because it must be the present result of the action of the verb.
To bring this down to English, you cannot understand the verb "begotten" as being properly present tense. It is past tense and must precede the participle "Faith."
There is much much more evidence, but this should be a start.
I'm sorry, I love what you've written, but does not all of scripture point to this fact? That there are those who will believe and those who won't and those who believe are of God? I don't get what the difference is. For to me to quicken something it has to first have something to quicken, doesn't it?.
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Eventide
Member
Mondar, correct me if I'm not hearing you correctly here.. are you saying that the translaters have it wrong and that it should read, whosoever is begotten of God believes that Jesus is the Christ ?
Scripture interprets scripture right.. ?
John 1 tells us that He came to His own and His own received Him not.. but as many as received Him to them gave He power to become the sons of God.
Would you suggest that Israel was not actually His own.. that He had not begotten them..? And if what you're suggesting is true, that those who are begotten of Him believe that He is the Christ.. then how could they not receive Him..?
Also, why would Paul write that it was after we heard the gospel and after we believed that we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.. wouldn't he write that we were begotten of Him FIRST and that this was the reason why we trusted in Him ?
Theodore A. Jones
Member
Both systems are equal. Neither is right. Ur just deceving yourself.
Theodore A. Jones
Member
RE "the english participle" English or Greek? And state in English the corrected statement. RE "commands" in 1 Jn. 5:3, what commands?
Well, I did not mean that the translation is wrong. The problem is that the greek perfect tense has no exact parallel in English. The tense of the verb "begotten" (γεγεννηται) is a perfect tense verb. The perfect tense is always obvious because of the duplication of the first syllable. It also has the aorist root change. Whenever you see a perfect tense verb it denotes a past action. The English verb "is" makes it sound like it is present tense, but there is present results to a perfect tense verb, so the translation is not actually wrong. The greek perfect tense detonates a past action with present results.
In 1 John this tense occurs with the same verb in 2:29. Notice in 2:29 that the English is "is begotten." The Christian is begotten in the past, and in 2:29 the present tense result is righteousness.
The same tense and verb occur in 3:9, and several other times in 1 john. It is the same identical verb tense and grammatical construction.
More later.
Scripture interprets scripture right.. ?
John 1 tells us that He came to His own and His own received Him not.. but as many as received Him to them gave He power to become the sons of God.
Would you suggest that Israel was not actually His own.. that He had not begotten them..? And if what you're suggesting is true, that those who are begotten of Him believe that He is the Christ.. then how could they not receive Him..?
Also, why would Paul write that it was after we heard the gospel and after we believed that we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.. wouldn't he write that we were begotten of Him FIRST and that this was the reason why we trusted in Him ?[/QUOTE]
Re: total depravity
If Joe is a Calvinist.. then he'd be led to believe that God regenerated him first so that he could believe.. although he wouldn't need to ask Jesus into his heart because he would already be regenerated.
If Joe was just about any other flavor of believer.. then he would be convicted of his sin, of Christ's righteousness, and of the judgment to come.. he would experience Godly sorrow and the goodness of God would lead him to repentance.. and he would trust in Christ for the forgiveness of his sins.. and then God would baptize him into that one body by the Spirit.. after he trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel, and after he believed.
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Eventide you seem to love labels! Joe is just a partying sinner.
To use your words.
If Joe was just about any other flavor of believer.. then he would be convicted of his sin, of Christ's righteousness, and of the judgment to come.. he would experience Godly sorrow and the goodness of God would lead him to repentance.. and he would trust in Christ for the forgiveness of his sins.. and then God would baptize him into that one body by the Spirit.. after he trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel, and after he believed.
So one day Joe woke up and he, Joe, had changed his heart?
Reba, it depends..Originally Posted by reba
But you did not tell me what happened to change Joe's heart. Did he just wake up one day and ask Jesus into his heart?
If Joe is a Calvinist.. then he'd be led to believe that God regenerated him first so that he could believe.. although he wouldn't need to ask Jesus into his heart because he would already be regenerated.
If Joe was just about any other flavor of believer.. then he would be convicted of his sin, of Christ's righteousness, and of the judgment to come.. he would experience Godly sorrow and the goodness of God would lead him to repentance.. and he would trust in Christ for the forgiveness of his sins.. and then God would baptize him into that one body by the Spirit.. after he trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel, and after he believed.
Absolutely..
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Eventide you seem to love labels! Joe is just a partying sinner.
To use your words.
If Joe was just about any other flavor of believer.. then he would be convicted of his sin, of Christ's righteousness, and of the judgment to come.. he would experience Godly sorrow and the goodness of God would lead him to repentance.. and he would trust in Christ for the forgiveness of his sins.. and then God would baptize him into that one body by the Spirit.. after he trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel, and after he believed.
So one day Joe woke up and he, Joe, had changed his heart?
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Eventide
Member
Sure, if you believe that the gospel of God comes from within Joe, and that the Holy Spirit's conviction comes from within Joe..
It's obvious to me that you can't hear anything except what you want to hear.
are you being sarcastic?
I am trying to hear you.
We know what is in our heads/brain when we write something. The guy reading has his own brain. I am trying to hear you.
Joe is a sinner.
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It is good to discuss the context. However, the issues on verse 3 do not directly affect the order in salvation. To be more exact, the propositions of verse 3 do not speak directly (maybe indirectly) to the issue of regeneration as the cause of faith. Let me try to be more clear. Please read this with a bible in your lap.
The context certainly deserves to be read carefully, and much more needs to be said that what I am going to say in this short post.
The whole thing begins in verse 1 with the concept of "the begotten of God." That is obviously the issue. Count the number of times the word "begotten" occurs in 1 John in chapters 2 through 5. Even count the numbers of time the word occurs in 5:1-4. The word occurs 4 times in those 4 verses. The context is listing the effects or results of this spiritual birth (begotten). The effects or results of the birth can be listed as:
1--- Faith ( 1a )
2--- Loving God and God's children ( 1b )
3--- Keeping his commandments ( 2 )
4--- Over coming the world. ( 4 )
It is obvious by the list above that I skipped verse 3, the exact verse that Theo mentioned. But if you look at what verse 3 is saying, it is saying that keeping the commandments is a mark of the ones who love God.
Now, let me also mention the structure of the verses. Notice the repetition.
vs 1--- ...and whosoever loveth him that begat = Vs 3--- For this is the love of God
* Both clauses speak of the one loving God.
Vs 1--- ...loveth him also that is begotten of him. = Vs 2--- 2 Hereby we know that we love the children of God
* Bot clauses speak of loving the Children of God.
Vs 1--- Whosoever believeth = Vs 4--- even our faith
* This is the book ends... on each side is the concept of faith. In verse 1 it is a verb form "to believe" and in verse 4 it is a noun.
CONCLUSION
In the context, faith is the issue. Faith comes from being born of God. How do you know you have faith? Go to the list...... loving the children of God, loving God, and keeping his commandments. The problem comes only when you reverse the concept. If you reverse the concepts of the passage and say that you become a child of God by keeping his commandments, loving God, and loving God's children, then you misread the passage. If you read it that the marks of the Child of God is loving God, loving Christians, and keeping his commandments, then you got it right.
The most important part is the context, and the context is about being "begotten." It all comes from the new birth of being a child of God. Without God's action of giving the new birth (begotten) there would be no faith, no loving God, no loving the brethren, and no keeping commandments. In other words, without God first acting, we would only be rebels and haters of God.
FINAL NOTE:
Two issues... Is the whole world "begotten?" Or is it only a chosen few? In other words, is the atonement universal, or limited only to those God regenerates? If everyone in the world is "begotten" then everyone in the world loves God, loves the children of God, keeps the commandments, and has faith.
Also.... do you love the children of God? John introduced that theme back in Chapter 2....
9 He that saith he is in the light and hateth his brother, is in the darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is no occasion of stumbling in him.
The person who keeps commandments is noticeable because you see him loving the brethren. He is not the one who has to justify his own evil deeds or nasty words. He is the one that loves the brethren.