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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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total depravity
- Thread starter jasoncran
- Start date
On the issue of universal vs. partial atonement I trust God alone will say. For God could have caught all in one giant net only to choose what He caught as He saw fit. This raises the point that all might be begotten according to what exists to quicken. For God says He will make the valleys into mountains and make the mountains into valleys. It's as if the whole point is to accept that God declares one's station and it is all good according to Him and we should not glory or be ashamed of whatever God appoints us to, as our carnal nature seems to do.
Eventide
Member
And even quoting from Eph 1:13 your response was that Joe changed his own heart...? ? ?
Is that how you interpret Eph 1:13.. where Paul is writing to the church of God and teaches them that they trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel.. and that after they believed that they were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise...
You consider that Joe changing his own heart..?
No I do not believe we change our own hearts. Stuff can sure get messed up in posts!
I believe God changes the heart of man.
But you did not tell me what happened to change Joe's heart. Did he just wake up one day and ask Jesus into his heart?
This is my question again i dont see an answer so if ya answered tell me where.
..
I believe God changes the heart of man.
But you did not tell me what happened to change Joe's heart. Did he just wake up one day and ask Jesus into his heart?
This is my question again i dont see an answer so if ya answered tell me where.
..
Eventide
Member
Not only did I tell you how Joe's heart was changed.. I told you how ever member of the body of Christ's heart was changed.. and Eph 1:13 tells us precisely that.. when each and every member was baptized into that one body (His) by the same Spirit.. and that was AFTER we heard the gospel and AFTER we believed.
So feel free to tell me your explanation of Eph 1:13..
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
So how did Joe hear? What or who happened to open Joe's ears? Joe just decide one day to go to a church? Did a street preacher just happen to snag him?
So how did Joe hear? What or who happened to open Joe's ears? Joe just decide one day to go to a church? Did a street preacher just happen to snag him?
Eventide
Member
With his ears ?
:toofunny
What made Joe hear. That was funny ET.
You know the question i am asking. Did Joe wake up after a party and decide to go to church, so he could hear?
Or does God open the ears and hearts of man?
We are not talking removing foam ear plugs and more than ripping open a chest and heart.
What made Joe hear. That was funny ET.
You know the question i am asking. Did Joe wake up after a party and decide to go to church, so he could hear?
Or does God open the ears and hearts of man?
We are not talking removing foam ear plugs and more than ripping open a chest and heart.
Eventide
Member
Could Adam hear the voice of God after the fall in the garden Reba ?
Could the rich young ruler hear the voice of God ?
How about the Pharisee's who perceived that Jesus was talking about them.. could they hear God's voice.. ?
How about the Israelites at Pentecost who were pricked in their heart after hearing the gospel and told to be baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.. ?
It amazes me that TD preachers render the gospel powerless..
How about those who were not pricked in their hearts after hearing the Gospel - does that imply the Gospel was powerless in their case? What are you saying is the actual difference that results in one coming to faith in Christ and another not doing so? If I've understood correctly, I think that's what Reba wants to know.Eventide said:
And anyway, I thought Total Depravity was one of the doctrines, nearly everybody in Christianity officially agreed upon - or am I wrong about that.
To get this clarified, do we need a change of heart to believe or do we need to believe to get a change of heart? What changes when we have this change in heart - Is it a mere change in perspective or does our very nature change? If it's the latter, why does our nature need changing?
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
I am not very good at this sort of thing but i will try to convey what is in my heart.
The word of truth is laid out in the preceding verses. The truth of who we are in Christ Jesus and how we became His. Verse 4. To my thinking the we here is the church, His body, etc. He choose us according to His will and we believe this the Seal of the Spirit binds us together past and future in Him for His glory and completion of His plan..
If i were to take the verse out of the context God put it in it would read very different. It is not a single verse but part of a whole Scripture was not written in chapter and verse.. although they are handy :yes
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
we heard the word
in whom also after that ye believed,
so then we believed
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
so we are sealed with the spirit.
The word of truth God is talking about is in the preceding verses and why are we sealed with the Holy Spirit. to grow His kingdom... His church His body....
Please dont be too hard on me I am not good at this stuff.....
Eventide
Member
Not at all.. the free gift is also available to those who do not accept it, although it must be met with repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ.
And what would you liike to hear, that those who do believe the truth consider themselves better than those who don't.. ?
The gospel presents an ultimatum to everyone equally.. continue living your life the way that you are and suffer the consequences or submit to the truth.. deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Christ.
There are countless examples of why many are not willing to come to the light... although if you'd like to charge that it's because we think that we're better than those who do not believe... or that we believe through our own effort/power/goodness.. then go right ahead. It's nothing new, just the same old misrepresentation.
And perhaps you also thought that many believe through their own effort/power/goodness.
If the gospel of God concerning His Son didn't change your mind and heart, then I'm not sure what can change it. And of course we know that you believe that God had to regenerate you first so that you could believe the gospel.. and because you believe that.. you must then question why everyone else who doesn't see it your way comes to believe.. and then of course we get the typical it's our own effort/power/goodness..
Eventide
Member
Did you notice the part where it says that after you heard the gospel, and after you believed, that we were sealed with the Spirit of promise.. ?
Why would anyone want to reverse that order..? Why would anyone teach others that you were regenerated first and then you believed..?
I would add that He didn't choose us.. but that He chose us in Christ, and we know that we were placed into the body of Christ AFTER we heard the gospel, and AFTER we believed it. We didn't believe after we were regenerated, we were regenerated after we believed..
So where does this context teach that we were regenerated so that we believed ?
It's not about what I like to hear - it's about what truth we assent to. And I don't honestly believe that you consciously consider yourself any better than the rest - but that's the undeniable implication of what you're stating. Personally, I don't think it's wrong to say that we will continue to hold on to what seems to be contradictory beliefs until such time that God sees fit to resolve them. It's not necessary that one has to resort to denial of the issue itself.Eventide said:
What are the main reasons among these countless examples that they didn't come to the Light? And how didn't those hamper us who came to believe in God? Are we inherently better equipped than them to be able to resist that which hardened them?
Again, I don't expect you to resolve this here and now - that's the work of God. But we could all at least try to be honest to the concerns being raised - I don't know if you'd agree...
Perhaps you missed this - but why again does our nature need changing, assuming you do believe it needs changing?
jasoncran
Member
are we also arguing against or for limited atonement? ok. this is where i see td with limited atonement. one is only atoned when christ comes into your heart. and to answer ivdavid's post.
we need jesus as we are so depraved and in need of a savior, God isnt obligated to save us but do so out of mercy and love that he has for us.
we need jesus as we are so depraved and in need of a savior, God isnt obligated to save us but do so out of mercy and love that he has for us.
Is there anyone who'd argue against what you've said here - I think it's pretty straightforward that only those who are in Christ by the Spirit are atoned for.
I'm in complete agreement on this. I'd only add that God does this not for our sake as such but for His Name's sake (Eze 36:22).jasoncran said:
Eventide
Member
IF all men have the choice to either accept or reject the free gift of salvation in Christ.. then how does it imply that those who DO believe are better than those who do not..?
On the other hand.. IF I was allowed to believe and others are not allowed to believe.. as in your case.. then THAT would certainly be special.
Not sure I follow.. denial of what issue ?
How about the rich man who walked away from the LORD.. you believe that he walked away because he wasn't regenerated in order to believe.. and imo that's sheer nonsense.. because we're told exactly why he walked away..
So you're saying that I'm being dishonest ? Are you kidding me ?
Flesh gives birth to flesh.. and the Spirit gives birth to the Spirit.. it's a simple biblical fact.. we must be born again.. and another simple biblical fact is that I must believe in order to be saved..
I agree that this will not be resolved because so many are being taught that they're the elect.. that God chose them for no reason.. and that all the rest don't have a chance.. and imo, it's practically impossible for those who buy into this doctrine to see that they're wrong about it.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Total Depravity means man is dead in sin by nature ! Eph 2:1,5
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
The word dead is the greek word nekros and means:
properly
a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless
b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate
2) metaph.
a) spiritually dead
1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
2) inactive as respects doing right
b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
We by nature are born dead in sin in that we have no life from God, period !
Jn 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Don't get it twisted in what Jesus is saying here, He is not suggesting that one has to eat and drink of the flesh and blood of Him as a condition to get life, but that if one does not eat and drink of Him , then its because they do not have life in them. Eating and Drinking are activities that are done by Living People not dead ones..
We as men by nature are not able to eat and drink of the son of man, we do not have the ability !
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
The word dead is the greek word nekros and means:
properly
a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless
b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate
2) metaph.
a) spiritually dead
1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
2) inactive as respects doing right
b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
We by nature are born dead in sin in that we have no life from God, period !
Jn 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Don't get it twisted in what Jesus is saying here, He is not suggesting that one has to eat and drink of the flesh and blood of Him as a condition to get life, but that if one does not eat and drink of Him , then its because they do not have life in them. Eating and Drinking are activities that are done by Living People not dead ones..
We as men by nature are not able to eat and drink of the son of man, we do not have the ability !
Eventide i tried to tell you what you asked.. Can /will you see if you can make me understand what you mean with this quote/
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Thanks
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Thanks