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Total Depravity

Let's start off with a definition from a Calvinistic Source on this matter.

"This universal depravity of men is no slight evil. The whole human race, by their apostasy from God, are totally depraved. By total depravity, is not meant that all men are equally wicked; nor that any man is as thoroughly corrupt as it is possible for a man to be; nor that men are destitute of all moral virtues."

Hodge, C. (1997). Systematic theology (Vol. 2, p. 233). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Arminians too acknowledge man's sinfulness, though to varied extents and the real difference is the degree of sinfulness that Calvinists assert regarding humanity. Also, key to their understanding is how this affects man's ability to respond to the gospel, which they will assert that it requires regeneration.

We will now discuss the merits of this view and how it compares to Scripture.

Enjoy!
 
Genesis 6:5
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man wasgreat in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Total depravity

Genesis 9:23
And Shem And Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not.their father's nakedness.

Total depravity ended (just partial depravity by Ham).

Seeing the destruction of mankind, must have made an impact on the 8. The covenant helped.

IMHO, there was total depravity, but the flood did help. Why do we ignore the end of total depravity. There was a remenant from then on.

eddif
 
IMO there is no such thing as total depravity, God gave man a choice and he made the wrong one.

God in His own time decided to make man for fellowship, a creature able and willing to by choice come to Fellowship with GOD.

In the beginning God created the heaven and earth and it was good.

God created man and woman and it was good.

The next point we jump to in this study is man disobeying God. And we often come to some, I think, unfounded conclusions. Possibly we need to start with WHY God created all the world and Mankind in the first place. We need this foundation before we get to the fall and a medieval intermix of ideas from many sources.


Which point do we need as the basis, the foundation of our theology?


1. God created Man for Fellowship and gave man “The Image of God” so he could truly fellowship with God. Man has to have enough of the “Image of God” to Truly Commune with and Relate to God. Man was made to Rule with Dominion over the earth. God gave man enough free will so that he could and has the right to make choices on his own, and God will honor the choices.


2. God from eternity knew man would sin, creation and God’s plan was to provide a foundation for the plan of saving Grace. When Adam disobeyed God he became totally depraved and cannot come to God by choice. Man has no free will or a will so corrupted that he cannot use it to know God.
The question has been asked, “Why did God create the world and man if He knew man would sin?” Like so many questions this one may be placing the emphasis in the wrong place.

Look at a few ideas that may help us understand.

1. The universe, was made by God for MAN to have a home, A place where God and Man could fellowship. God, eternal, Holy, self-existent, unchanging, all knowing, sovereign, made the world and man because HE WANTED TOO. God was making a creature for fellowship, love, and service. Someone to commune with, this fellowship, I think, is the key!

2. God did not gain from, have too, need too make man. All this is about fellowship. Fellowship with a creature that could an would choose to fellowship with Him.

3. God is eternal. He does not live in eternity, minute by minute, day by day, God INHABITS eternity, self-existent, NOW. All of eternity, every second of time, is now present before God. Yes, He saw the broad way, He saw the choices people would make, not to love and worship and fellowship with Him. Yes, He saw all the ones that by free choice would choose not to love or know Him. IS 57:15

4. But, so long ago when God looked at eternity He saw the ones that choose to love Him. Yes, He saw the narrow way that few find, He saw all our sins and failures. But, He looked beyond all that and saw fellowship with the ones that choose to follow Him. He saw in eternity that there would be some that elect by their free moral choice to serve and fellowship with Him.

5. Yes, He saw His holiness and righteousness and He knew the price of man’s sin would have to be paid. Yes, He saw the Cross. Before time He knew He would go to that old rugged cross in my place…HE DID IT ANYWAY!



I do not know where in your theology you need to place this, but it is a fact of the Bible story, The Relation between God and man is FELLOWSHIP not Grace! Grace comes later to fix a problem and restore fellowship.


Some say man cannot have a free will because the sovereignty of God would be limited. Nothing can happen that is not the will of God. OK, God’s will is that the creature in His world can choose to serve Him or not.

Religion has resulted in the invention of a new meaning for the word "sovereign," which basically means God controls everything. Nothing can happen but what He wills or allows. However, there is nothing in the actual definition that states that. The dictionary defines "sovereign" as, "1. Paramount; supreme. 2. Having supreme rank or power. 3. Independent: a sovereign state. 4. Excellent." None of these definitions means that God controls everything.

It is assumed that since God is paramount or supreme that nothing can happen without His approval. That is not what the Scriptures teach. In 2 Peter 3:9, Peter said, "The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." This clearly states that it is not the Lord's will for anyone to perish, but people are perishing. Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there at" (Matt. 7:13). Relatively few people are saved compared to the number that are lost. God's will for people concerning salvation is not being accomplished.The Sovereignty Of God By Andrew Wommack

The “Not” and all that follows from people not obeying God is the result of people choosing to disobey God, using a free will choice that God gave them. How important is that choice? God seeing eternity, knowing some would choose the world and not obey Him, Then looking to all who would obey and fellowship with Him, loved us so much, EVEN SEEING THE CROSS; HE DID IT ANYWAY!

Everyone in Gods eternal Kingdom will be there because they chose to be, It is all about fellowship with God, CHOOSING to FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD!
 
At some point here we come to the “Image of God in man”. There are almost as many opinions to the meaning of this as there are people. Still, I will venture to offer one more.

Given: God made man for fellowship.

Given: God and man are Persons.

Given: God and man have reason (knowledge), feelings (emotion) and the

ability to act (free will).

I feel the best definition of the Image of God in man is,

The ability to , “With knowledge of result”, MAKE A CHOICE.

No other creature in all creation has such an ability. I will further state that for God to truly and personally fellowship with man, man must have the Image of GOD “AT LEAST TO A LEVEL TO TRULY FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD.

Think about this the eternal infinite sovereign God made finite sovereign man with a Free Will to FELLOWSHIP. They had to have enough in common TO FELLOWSHIP!


The teaching on this subject; apart from “everyone” having their own description of “The Image”, the teaching has been very poor and fails to show the wonderful majesty of God. The eternal infinite sovereign God made finite man with a sovereign free will and moral responsibility. But, more than just free will “The Image” includes the moral attributes of God, holy, wise, good, merciful, loving, and sovereign. Man was made to fellowship with God.

When “the fool” said in his heart, using the free choice God gave him we get to result listed in Psalms 14:1 and 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. נבל nabal, which we render fool, signifies an empty fellow, a contemptible person, a villain. One who has a muddy head and an unclean heart; and, in his darkness and folly, says in his heart, “There is no God.” This Fool does not represent or include the entire race of man.


Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


ֶצֶלם ṣelem: A masculine noun meaning an image, a likeness, a statue, a model, a drawing, a shadow. The word means image or likeness; its most celebrated theological and anthropological use was to depict human beings as made in God's own image (Gen_1:26-27; Gen_5:3).

ָרָדה rāḏāh: A verb meaning to rule, to have dominion, to subjugate. This Hebrew word conveys the notion of exercising domain, whether legitimate or not, over those who are powerless or otherwise under one's control. (Just for Fun, Wycliffe translated it Sovereign, Tyndale Rule.)


In our image, after our likeness - What is here said refers to his spirit. This was made in the image and likeness of God. Now, as the Divine Being is infinite, he is neither limited by parts, nor definable by passions; therefore he can have no corporeal image after which he made the body of man. The image and likeness must necessarily be intellectual; his mind, his soul, must have been formed after the nature and perfections of his God. The human mind is still endowed with most extraordinary capacities; it was more so when issuing out of the hands of its Creator. God was now producing a spirit, and a spirit, too, formed after the perfections of his own nature. God is the fountain whence this spirit issued, hence the stream must resemble the spring which produced it. God is holy, just, wise, good, and perfect; so must the spirit be that sprang from him: there could be in it nothing impure, unjust, ignorant, evil, low, base, mean, or vile. It was created after the image of God; and that image, St. Paul tells us, consisted in righteousness, true holiness, and knowledge, Eph_4:24 Col_3:10. Hence man was wise in his mind, holy in his heart, and righteous in his actions. Were even the word of God silent on this subject, we could not infer less from the lights held out to us by reason and common sense. . (Adam Clark)

And let them have dominion - Hence we see that the dominion was not the image. God created man capable of governing the world, and when fitted for the office, he fixed him in it. We see God’s tender care and parental solicitude for the comfort and well-being of this masterpiece of his workmanship, in creating the world previously to the creation of man. He prepared everything for his subsistence, convenience, and pleasure, before he brought him into being. . (Adam Clark)

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.


God in the garden shed blood to cover sin and shame. He taught Adam about the sin offering and that the Messiah would one day come. ADAM LEFT THE GARDEN UNDER THE BLOOD, IN RIGHT STANDING WITH GOD! Still a free moral agent with the right to choose to obey GOD or not!


But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is the type of Him who was to come; … For if by one man's offense death reigned by one, much more they who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.) RO 5:14;17


Even in the Old Testament When anyone obeyed God and offered the required offerings of sacrifice looking forward to the Messiah they had the Grace to be right with God.


God made coats of skins - It is very likely that the skins out of which their clothing was made were taken off animals whose blood had been poured out as a sin-offering to God; for as we find Cain and Abel offering sacrifices to God, we may fairly presume that God had given them instructions on this
 
Let's start off with a definition from a Calvinistic Source on this matter.

"This universal depravity of men is no slight evil. The whole human race, by their apostasy from God, are totally depraved. By total depravity, is not meant that all men are equally wicked; nor that any man is as thoroughly corrupt as it is possible for a man to be; nor that men are destitute of all moral virtues."

Hodge, C. (1997). Systematic theology (Vol. 2, p. 233). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Arminians too acknowledge man's sinfulness, though to varied extents and the real difference is the degree of sinfulness that Calvinists assert regarding humanity. Also, key to their understanding is how this affects man's ability to respond to the gospel, which they will assert that it requires regeneration.

We will now discuss the merits of this view and how it compares to Scripture.

Enjoy!

It seems to me that even the name of the doctrine is to lead one in a certain direction. In this description is said that man is not thoroughly corrupt nor destitute of all moral virtues, and yet the doctrine is called "Total Depravity".
 
I'll just add a little for anyone who may not know that Total Depravity is the first doctrine that is represented by the T in the acronym T.U.L.I.P.
"Calvinism is a system of biblical interpretation taught by John Calvin. Calvin lived in France in the 1500's at the time of Martin Luther who sparked the Reformation."

"The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot.""
http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

So are there scriptures that show/prove man is capable of choosing or desiring to seek God?
 
I'll just add a little for anyone who may not know that Total Depravity is the first doctrine that is represented by the T in the acronym T.U.L.I.P.
"Calvinism is a system of biblical interpretation taught by John Calvin. Calvin lived in France in the 1500's at the time of Martin Luther who sparked the Reformation."

"The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot.""
http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

So are there scriptures that show/prove man is capable of choosing or desiring to seek God?
How does this scripture fit; for seeking God?
Genesis 4:26
And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Under John's baptism there is a certain level of relationship with God.
Under Jesus there is eternal life .
With Holy Spirit there is empowerment for service.

It appears that they are intended to go together (did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed ?). Acts also shows that man is not perfect (even after Acts 2:4).

Total perfection of man is completed at the resurrection and judgement throne.

At the time of Enos all was not finished

I seem to be one of the few nuts that sees Romans 7:25 in an honest way. I will use modern man (maybe us on this site). With our minds we serve the law of God, but ask around and sin still exists in the flesh. Oh our minds (our new creation mind of Christ) are alive with us in Christ and Christ in us, but it appears the flesh is not yet glorified ( insert a better word than glorified if needed ).

Some want our condition to be worse, and some want our condition to be better. The honest truth? I think (regretfully) that Romans 7:25 is the truth. All my Pentecostal buddies throw ashes on their heads and tear their garments LOL. All my Presbyterian buddies want me not to have a mind that swings from church chandeliers. All my friends here hope I will find their truth. LOL

Total depravity? Why did God send the flood? If God presents a solution does it work?

And by the way, all this is not to be answered just by the quoted post author, but IMHO all this shows we are limited in seeking God, but not in our mind. Our mind lifts up Christ Jesus and he draws all men to himself.

eddif
 
Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God may use compassion or fear as needed. The love of God will give us a hug or send us to rehab as needed (or instruct church leadership to deal with problems ).

Our natural will needs help.
Romans. 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

eddif
 
Let's start off with a definition from a Calvinistic Source on this matter.

"This universal depravity of men is no slight evil. The whole human race, by their apostasy from God, are totally depraved. By total depravity, is not meant that all men are equally wicked; nor that any man is as thoroughly corrupt as it is possible for a man to be; nor that men are destitute of all moral virtues."

Hodge, C. (1997). Systematic theology (Vol. 2, p. 233). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Arminians too acknowledge man's sinfulness, though to varied extents and the real difference is the degree of sinfulness that Calvinists assert regarding humanity. Also, key to their understanding is how this affects man's ability to respond to the gospel, which they will assert that it requires regeneration.

We will now discuss the merits of this view and how it compares to Scripture.

Enjoy!
This doesn't accurately capture what this point fully claims. For Calvinists, total depravity includes the idea that man is not able to believe the gospel, or even understand it.

From this follows logically all the rest of TULIP. Because man is unable to believe, God has chosen to save some unconditionally (point 2). This actually means that God will regenerate those He chose so that they CAN believe. For most Calvinists, one must be regenerated in order to believe. Yet, there are no verses that teach this.

Because no one can believe, and God therefore chooses who He will save, and that unconditionally, Christ died ONLY for those God chose to save (point 3). Another point that cannot be supported from Scripture. From all this, point 4 is that God's grace is irresistible, meaning that those God chose to save unconditionally cannot resist God's regeneration, and they cannot refuse to believe.

From that, the 5th point is perseverance of the saints (those God chose to save unconditionally). This is easily refuted from Scripture from Luke 8:13.
 
This doesn't accurately capture what this point fully claims. For Calvinists, total depravity includes the idea that man is not able to believe the gospel, or even understand it.
I actually noted that here:

"Also, key to their understanding is how this affects man's ability to respond to the gospel, which they will assert that it requires regeneration."

Also, do you think that man is of his own power able to respond to the gospel?

From that, the 5th point is perseverance of the saints (those God chose to save unconditionally). This is easily refuted from Scripture from Luke 8:13.
Can you elaborate on your understanding of Luke 8:13?
 
God made coats of skins - It is very likely that the skins out of which their clothing was made were taken off animals whose blood had been poured out as a sin-offering to God; for as we find Cain and Abel offering sacrifices to God, we may fairly presume that God had given them instructions on this
Since you wrote a third of a book, it would take forever to address all that. So, I will only ask one question.

If this is true, why did God, repeatedly declare, all through the Bible (in both OT & NT), that He does not, and never did, want sacrifices? In several verses, He even talks in disdain about us offering Him animal sacrifices.
 
It is a simple answer, He did not want sacrifices; God wanted Fellowship, freely offered by a choice to know Him. God said "Disobey Me and DIE" the debt had to be paid. God in mercy made a plan to pay that debt. Sacrifices looking forward to Christ, Grace looking back to the cross But God paid the debt HE REQUIRED!

Yes it is a long discussion but some topics need long answers that try to fully explain the idea.

Total depravity as a doctrine seems to start with Augustine, he mixed Philosophy, Gnostic teachings and Latin Bible (he did not know Greek or Hebrew and based doctrine in Latin bible and "Experience") Calvin and Luther were following his teaching. The bible does not teach Total Depravity this comes from a misunderstanding of scripture and Gnostic beliefs of Augustine.
 
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How does this scripture fit; for seeking God?
Genesis 4:26
And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Under John's baptism there is a certain level of relationship with God.
Under Jesus there is eternal life .
With Holy Spirit there is empowerment for service.

It appears that they are intended to go together (did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed ?). Acts also shows that man is not perfect (even after Acts 2:4).

Total perfection of man is completed at the resurrection and judgement throne.

At the time of Enos all was not finished

I seem to be one of the few nuts that sees Romans 7:25 in an honest way. I will use modern man (maybe us on this site). With our minds we serve the law of God, but ask around and sin still exists in the flesh. Oh our minds (our new creation mind of Christ) are alive with us in Christ and Christ in us, but it appears the flesh is not yet glorified ( insert a better word than glorified if needed ).

Some want our condition to be worse, and some want our condition to be better. The honest truth? I think (regretfully) that Romans 7:25 is the truth. All my Pentecostal buddies throw ashes on their heads and tear their garments LOL. All my Presbyterian buddies want me not to have a mind that swings from church chandeliers. All my friends here hope I will find their truth. LOL

Total depravity? Why did God send the flood? If God presents a solution does it work?

And by the way, all this is not to be answered just by the quoted post author, but IMHO all this shows we are limited in seeking God, but not in our mind. Our mind lifts up Christ Jesus and he draws all men to himself.

eddif
Good post, eddif. :)

Why did God send the flood? Why did the Father send the Son?
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
 
God in the garden shed blood to cover sin and shame. He taught Adam about the sin offering and that the Messiah would one day come. ADAM LEFT THE GARDEN UNDER THE BLOOD, IN RIGHT STANDING WITH GOD! Still a free moral agent with the right to choose to obey GOD or not!

Please see this wonderful TRUTH!
GOD gave Adam the answers, the blood sacrifice for atonement, Keep MY commandments, Adam left the Garden under the Blood, KNOWING what was required to serve God, Looking forward to Christ. Total Depravity and TULIP say we are to sinful to come to God. That simply is not what the Bible says.
 
Even our best stinks..

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

tob
 
Even our best stinks..

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

tob
Of coarse this is true, OUR righteousness is putrid.
 
Also, do you think that man is of his own power able to respond to the gospel?
Placing trust in someone or something does not take any so-called "power". When you drive across a bridge over a very deep valley, how much power did it require in order for you to trust that bridge? I suggest it required no power at all. When you talk to people, you are free to believe what they say, or not believe what they say. How much power is involved in whether to believe them or not? I suggest it requires no power.

Can you elaborate on your understanding of Luke 8:13?
Sure. Jesus noted some believers who will quit believing when temptations come.

"“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Some posters make the mistake of thinking that Jesus was speaking of falling away from salvation. No, He was clearly pointing out that some only "believe for a while". The words "fall away" refer to "believe for a while."

There are several verses that plainly indicate that believers were encouraged to "continue/remain in the faith" or "remain true to the Lord". Acts 11:23, Acts 14:22, Phil 1:25 and Col 1:23 (NASB).
 
Placing trust in someone or something does not take any so-called "power". When you drive across a bridge over a very deep valley, how much power did it require in order for you to trust that bridge? I suggest it required no power at all. When you talk to people, you are free to believe what they say, or not believe what they say. How much power is involved in whether to believe them or not? I suggest it requires no power.


Sure. Jesus noted some believers who will quit believing when temptations come.

"“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Some posters make the mistake of thinking that Jesus was speaking of falling away from salvation. No, He was clearly pointing out that some only "believe for a while". The words "fall away" refer to "believe for a while."

There are several verses that plainly indicate that believers were encouraged to "continue/remain in the faith" or "remain true to the Lord". Acts 11:23, Acts 14:22, Phil 1:25 and Col 1:23 (NASB).
That thar bridge. LOL
What if some gang had been taking bolts out of guard rails and forcing vehicles to hit the rails and plummet to the canyon floor? What if 9 lives had been lost in the last month alone? Satan comes to steal, kill, destroy. False doctrine is presented (you must be circumsized
and keep the law of Moses). Or even
Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

It takes the full armor to overcome.

The disciples needed to wait for power. They were not going on a vacation.

eddif
 
That thar bridge. LOL
What if some gang had been taking bolts out of guard rails and forcing vehicles to hit the rails and plummet to the canyon floor?
Kinda like placing one's faith in Allah for those 72 black haired virgins, huh. Ain't gonna happen. We need to realize that it isn't our action of believing that keeps the bridge up, any more than it's our action of faith that takes us to heaven.

One must put their trust into someone/thing that is trusty. And many people have been deceived. Just as your example demonstrated. The bridge wasn't trusty, but the driver didn't know that. Bummer.

What if 9 lives had been lost in the last month alone? Satan comes to steal, kill, destroy. False doctrine is presented (you must be circumsized
and keep the law of Moses). Or even
Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

It takes the full armor to overcome.

The disciples needed to wait for power. They were not going on a vacation.
eddif
I have no idea of what your point is here. What about 9 lost lives? What about satan stealing/killing/destroying? What about the law of Moses? What about disciples waiting for power? The context of my post was about the false idea that it takes "power" to believe something. Which it doesn't, as I pointed out by the bridge illustration.
 
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