Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

[JudaicChristian]

[/SIZE]
What does the following mean regarding the Father: "from whom are all things"?

I have not done an indepth study of that verse, but I suspect that it is a translation issue, or it has been tampered with. Look here at the NIV: 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
We know very well that Yahwah is called God, and that Yahshua is a god. Also the both are called (Lord / lord.) The statement is not biblically correct according to other scriptures. Take this into concideration: Dan 7:21. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;... Dan 7:25. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:... Dan 8:11.Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,(Yahshua) and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away,(Rome) and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.(The temple)... Dan 8:12. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth(Scriptures) to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

 

[Who Says]

So many insist on seeing the phrase "are one" as saying "are one and the same person".

But throughout all its uses it means, "are one in accord".

In other words the Son perfectly and completely submits to the will of the Father to work what the Father purposes.

And that is what we and heaven are too supposed to do.

How did Jesus say to pray? Matthew 6:9-10 "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

 

[Free]

I have not done an indepth study of that verse, but I suspect that it is a translation issue, or it has been tampered with. Look here at the NIV: 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
We know very well that Yahwah is called God, and that Yahshua is a god. Also the both are called (Lord / lord.) The statement is not biblically correct according to other scriptures. Take this into concideration: Dan 7:21. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;... Dan 7:25. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:... Dan 8:11.Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,(Yahshua) and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away,(Rome) and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.(The temple)... Dan 8:12. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth(Scriptures) to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

That doesn't really answer my question.

But throughout all its uses it means, "are one in accord".

If they are merely "one in purpose," then why did the Jews accuse Jesus of blasphemy and try to stone him for making himself God (John 10:30-33)? Surely if he was only "one in accord" with the will of the Father the Jews would not have accused him of such things since they wanted the will of God done.

 

[JudaicChristian]

That doesn't really answer my question.



If they are merely "one in purpose," then why did the Jews accuse Jesus of blasphemy and try to stone him for making himself God (John 10:30-33)? Surely if he was only "one in accord" with the will of the Father the Jews would not have accused him of such things since they wanted the will of God done.

When translating into English a scholar will determine if a word should be upper or lower case.(God or a god) Also, the scholar will determine if the sentence should use the article "a" in the sentence.
God is not a man: In Numbers 23:16; "God is not a man..." defies the possibility that Yahshua The Messiah is God. The text states that: Yahwah is not an ("iys/man) that He should lie, nor the son of (Adam/Man")...
Psalm 80:17
Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself.
Matthew 22:44
" 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." '

Matthew 26:64
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
1 Peter 3:22
who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with messengers, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Matthew 22:41
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Messiah ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. 43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'lord'? For he says, 44" 'The Lord said to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." 45If then David calls him 'lord,' how can he be his son?"

 

[JudaicChristian]

Opposition to the Trinity: Among Bible verses cited by opponents of Trinitarianism are those that claim there is only one God, the Father. Other verses state that Jesus Christ was a man. Although Trinitarians explain these apparent contradictions by reference to the mystery and paradox of the Trinity itself, some Non-Trinitarians argue that there is little, if any, Biblical basis for the Trinity. This is a partial list of verses implying opposition to Trinitarianism: One God
•Matthew 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."'"
•John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
•1Corinthians 8:5-6: "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
•1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
•James 2:19: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."
•John 14:28: “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’t If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
Son and Father
•Mark 13:32: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
•John 1:18: "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
•John 14:28: "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
•John 17:20-23: "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
•John 20:17: "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
•Acts 7:55-56: "But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."
•Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
•Corinthians 15:24-28: "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
•Revelation 3:14: "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:"
Holy spirit as Gift of holy spirit
•John 7:39: "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
•John 14:16: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; "
•John 14:26: "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
•John 15:26: "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"
•John 16:7: "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
•Acts 2:17-18: "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: "
•Acts 2:38:"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
•Acts 10:45: "And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost."
•Romans 8:15: "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."
•1 Corinthians 2:12: "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."
•Galatians 3:2: "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"
•Galatians 3:14: "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
•Galatians 4:6: "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."
•Ephesians 1:13: "In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
•1 John 3:24: "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."
•1 John 4:13: "Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit."
•1 Thessalonians 4:8: "He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit."
Old Testament
•Daniel 7:13: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
•Psalms 110:1: Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
•Judges 3:15: But when the people of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up for them a deliverer, Ehud, the son of Gera. The same Hebrew word is used both to translate "savior" and "deliverer". If God is the only true savior, as is Jesus, according to the Trinity doctrine, then the term "savior" or "deliverer" could not apply to anyone else. This would then imply a contradiction to the Trinity doctrine or imply that Jesus had been sent to Earth prior to events in the new testament.
Ontological differences
•John 13:16, Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me."(John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father(John 14:26) and Jesus(John 16:7,13), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
•John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth."
•John 17:1-3 Jesus prays to God.
•Hebrews 2:17,18 Hebrews 3:2 Jesus has faith in God.
•Acts 3:13 Jesus is a servant of God.
•Mark 13:32 Revelation 1:1 Jesus does not know things God knows.
•John 4:22 Jesus worships God.
•Revelation 3:12 Jesus has one who is God to him.
•1stCorinthians 15:28 Jesus is in subjection to God.
•1stCorinthians 11:1 Jesus' head is God.
•Hebrews 5:7 Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God.
•Acts 2:36 Jesus is given lordship by God.
•Acts 5:31 Jesus is exalted by God.
•Hebrews 5:10 Jesus is made high priest by God.
•Philippians 2:9 Jesus is given authority by God.
•Luke 1:32,33 Jesus is given kingship by God.
•Acts 10:42 Jesus is given judgment by God.
•Acts 2:24, Romans 10.9, 1 Cor 15:15 "God raised [Jesus] from the dead".
•Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34 Jesus is at the right hand of God.
•1 Tim 2:5 Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man.
•1 Cor 15:24-28 God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus.
•Philippians 2:6 Jesus did not believe being one with God was possible
•Matthew 27:46: "Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?""
•Mark 15:34: "And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, "Eloi Eloi lema sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?""

 

[Free]

When translating into English a scholar will determine if a word should be upper or lower case.(God or a god) Also, the scholar will determine if the sentence should use the article "a" in the sentence.
God is not a man: In Numbers 23:16; "God is not a man..." defies the possibility that Yahshua The Messiah is God. The text states that: Yahwah is not an ("iys/man) that He should lie, nor the son of (Adam/Man")...
Psalm 80:17
Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself.
Matthew 22:44
" 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." '

Matthew 26:64
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
1 Peter 3:22
who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with messengers, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Matthew 22:41
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Messiah ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. 43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'lord'? For he says, 44" 'The Lord said to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." 45If then David calls him 'lord,' how can he be his son?"

This still doesn't answer my question. It really seems as though you are evading.

 

[Free]

Opposition to the Trinity: Among Bible verses cited by opponents of Trinitarianism are those that claim there is only one God, the Father. Other verses state that Jesus Christ was a man. Although Trinitarians explain these apparent contradictions by reference to the mystery and paradox of the Trinity itself, some Non-Trinitarians argue that there is little, if any, Biblical basis for the Trinity. This is a partial list of verses implying opposition to Trinitarianism: One God
•Matthew 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."'"
•John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
•1Corinthians 8:5-6: "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
•1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
•James 2:19: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."
•John 14:28: “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’t If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
Son and Father
•Mark 13:32: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
•John 1:18: "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
•John 14:28: "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
•John 17:20-23: "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
•John 20:17: "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
•Acts 7:55-56: "But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."
•Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
•Corinthians 15:24-28: "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
•Revelation 3:14: "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:"
Holy spirit as Gift of holy spirit
•John 7:39: "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
•John 14:16: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; "
•John 14:26: "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
•John 15:26: "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"
•John 16:7: "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
•Acts 2:17-18: "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: "
•Acts 2:38:"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
•Acts 10:45: "And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost."
•Romans 8:15: "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."
•1 Corinthians 2:12: "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."
•Galatians 3:2: "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"
•Galatians 3:14: "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
•Galatians 4:6: "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."
•Ephesians 1:13: "In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
•1 John 3:24: "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."
•1 John 4:13: "Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit."
•1 Thessalonians 4:8: "He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit."
Old Testament
•Daniel 7:13: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
•Psalms 110:1: Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
•Judges 3:15: But when the people of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up for them a deliverer, Ehud, the son of Gera. The same Hebrew word is used both to translate "savior" and "deliverer". If God is the only true savior, as is Jesus, according to the Trinity doctrine, then the term "savior" or "deliverer" could not apply to anyone else. This would then imply a contradiction to the Trinity doctrine or imply that Jesus had been sent to Earth prior to events in the new testament.
Ontological differences
•John 13:16, Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me."(John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father(John 14:26) and Jesus(John 16:7,13), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
•John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth."
•John 17:1-3 Jesus prays to God.
•Hebrews 2:17,18 Hebrews 3:2 Jesus has faith in God.
•Acts 3:13 Jesus is a servant of God.
•Mark 13:32 Revelation 1:1 Jesus does not know things God knows.
•John 4:22 Jesus worships God.
•Revelation 3:12 Jesus has one who is God to him.
•1stCorinthians 15:28 Jesus is in subjection to God.
•1stCorinthians 11:1 Jesus' head is God.
•Hebrews 5:7 Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God.
•Acts 2:36 Jesus is given lordship by God.
•Acts 5:31 Jesus is exalted by God.
•Hebrews 5:10 Jesus is made high priest by God.
•Philippians 2:9 Jesus is given authority by God.
•Luke 1:32,33 Jesus is given kingship by God.
•Acts 10:42 Jesus is given judgment by God.
•Acts 2:24, Romans 10.9, 1 Cor 15:15 "God raised [Jesus] from the dead".
•Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34 Jesus is at the right hand of God.
•1 Tim 2:5 Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man.
•1 Cor 15:24-28 God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus.
•Philippians 2:6 Jesus did not believe being one with God was possible
•Matthew 27:46: "Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?""
•Mark 15:34: "And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, "Eloi Eloi lema sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?""

The doctrine of the Trinity adquately explains these verses as well as the ones that explicitly and implicitly claim Jesus is God. That is where all non-trinitarian theology, that I've seen, fails.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Let us look at John 1:17-18. The KJV reads: (17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (18) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
The NIV reads: (17) For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (18) No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Comparing two popular English Bibles; the King James Version (from the “Byzantine†group of manuscripts) and the NIV (from the “Alexandrianâ€-see below for an explanation) and you can easily see the differences in text. Not just a “word or a clause†here or there, but whole phrases [Matthew 19:17, 20:16, 20:22-23, 24:36, 25:13; Mark 2:17, 6:11, 7:8, 9:49, 10:24, 12:4, 14:27; Luke 4:4, 4:8, 4:18, 6:45, 11:4, 11:44, 20:23, 22:18, 22:30, 22:68, 24:46; John 17:12; Revelation 1:8, 1:11, 2:20], whole sentences [Matthew 6:13, 18:11, 23:14; Mark 7:16, 9:44, 9:45-46, 11:26, 12:30; Luke 9:55-56, 11:2, 11:11, 17:36, 23:34], even whole paragraphs Mark 16:15-18; John 7:53-8:11 added or deleted in various manuscripts at the whims of the Christian scribes.
Many of these changes occur in theologically sensitive areas, which arouses a good deal of suspicion, to say the least. To give an example: in the King James Version, the passage of John 9:35 is translated as: Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, "Do you believe in the Son of God?" The phrase Son of God, has the theological connotation of divinity, and is quite different from the phrase the son of man, which does not. However, son of man is how the verse reads in the earlier versions of newly discovered texts Papyri 66 and 75, which have been dated about the year 200 C.E., a good two hundred years before any text which contains the phrase the Son of God. To say that changing the word “man†to the word “God†does not “change the meaning of the passage†is certainly stretching the truth. Furthermore, this is not an isolated incident by any means.

 

[Who Says]

That doesn't really answer my question.



If they are merely "one in purpose," then why did the Jews accuse Jesus of blasphemy and try to stone him for making himself God (John 10:30-33)? Surely if he was only "one in accord" with the will of the Father the Jews would not have accused him of such things since they wanted the will of God done.

A son is and was considered the equal of his father. It is the old saying, "The branch does not fall far from the tree."

Remember, It did not say, "Making himself God", it said, "Making himself equal to God."

If they thought he was claiming to actually be God they'd not have missed the chance to say that outrightly. I don't believe that is what they did at John 10:33 based upon Jesus' responce showing how he understood them.

Even the Pharisees claimed to be equal to Abraham if you look closely at what they say.

Surely you do not want your son to be less than you? What loving father would?

And if you search in the context before and after that verse you will find that Jesus had told them he was God's Son as the reason they said that about him.

As I asked, "Surely you do not want your son to be less than you? What loving father would?"

Even John the Baptist testified: John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

You would defend your loyal son whom you sent on a mission for you that way too, wouldn't you? You would have his back without fail. You would never desert him.

Now you could argue that his Father let him be abused and killed. But that was only out of love for us. The Father also gave Jesus the power to raise his life back up.

So you say Jesus resurrected his self. No he did not. He raised his self back up at his Father's call just as Lazarus raised himself out of the tomb at Jesus' call. Jesus gave Lazarus the power to do that because his Father allows Jesus that power. And Jesus' Father gave Jesus the power to raise himself up in that same way that Jesus gave it to Lazarus.

This is not difficult to understand and seeing it the correct way makes much more sense. In the desire to see Jesus as God many lose their ability to reason non-fancifully.

The key to understanding anything the Bible teaches is in becoming like a child who has not yet learned to make everything complicated by his reasonings. Complex reasoning is men's wisdom, not God's. God speaks to us in a simple easy to understand common sense way. It is only our pride that causes us to turn it into fantastic things. Our pride likes for us to see it as complicated so that we can pat ourselves on the back for being better than others or more secure that we are saved than others because we think we understand what we think are complex things hidden from most men's ability to understand.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Could it be that the article “a†is missing do to the scripture being translated from Aramaic or Hebrew?


Definite and indefiniteThe prefixed definite article ha- (with germination of the first consonant in the noun, except where Hebrew phonological rules prohibit the gemination) indicates definiteness.

There is no indefinite article, so that, for example, יד yad can mean either simply ‘hand’ or “a hand.â€

Sporadically in the Bible, especially in Israelian Hebrew material, and more regularly in Mishnaic Hebrew, the numeral “1â€, masc. אחד ehad, fem. אחת ahat serves as the indefinite article, thus, e.g., אחד or איש is ehad, either “one†-man or “a†-manâ€, depending on the context.

John 10:33. "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." (or: a god)
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

Genesis 3229 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.†But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?†Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.â€
31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel,...

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

 

[Free]

A son is and was considered the equal of his father. It is the old saying, "The branch does not fall far from the tree."

Remember, It did not say, "Making himself God", it said, "Making himself equal to God."

If they thought he was claiming to actually be God they'd not have missed the chance to say that outrightly.

Incorrect:

Joh 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." (NIV)

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (NASB)

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.' (YLT)

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (KJV)

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God." (ESV)

They didn't miss their chance. They clearly recognized that Jesus was claiming to be God.

And if you search in the context before and after that verse you will find that Jesus had told them he was God's Son as the reason they said that about him.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. The Jews understood Jesus's statements--that he was God's Son and was one with the Father--as claiming to be God. Even if one argues that he was only claiming equality with the Father, that still supports a trinitarian position.

This is not difficult to understand and seeing it the correct way makes much more sense. In the desire to see Jesus as God many lose their ability to reason non-fancifully.

The key to understanding anything the Bible teaches is in becoming like a child who has not yet learned to make everything complicated by his reasonings. Complex reasoning is men's wisdom, not God's. God speaks to us in a simple easy to understand common sense way. It is only our pride that causes us to turn it into fantastic things. Our pride likes for us to see it as complicated so that we can pat ourselves on the back for being better than others or more secure that we are saved than others because we think we understand what we think are complex things hidden from most men's ability to understand.

Who Christ is is absolutely central to our salvation. I do not think that "The key to understanding anything the Bible teaches is in becoming like a child," is a position that can be supported biblically. Indeed, even Paul states to get off the milk. The Bible is far more complex than, IMO, most Christians realize. It is a very difficult book to understand as it has many levels of understanding, which is made all the more difficult by it's antiquity--by our distance from both the language and the events.

 

[Free]

Could it be that the article “a” is missing do to the scripture being translated from Aramaic or Hebrew?


Definite and indefiniteThe prefixed definite article ha- (with germination of the first consonant in the noun, except where Hebrew phonological rules prohibit the gemination) indicates definiteness.

There is no indefinite article, so that, for example, יד yad can mean either simply ‘hand’ or “a hand.”

Sporadically in the Bible, especially in Israelian Hebrew material, and more regularly in Mishnaic Hebrew, the numeral “1”, masc. אחד ehad, fem. אחת ahat serves as the indefinite article, thus, e.g., אחד or איש is ehad, either “one” -man or “a” -man”, depending on the context.

John 10:33. "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." (or: a god)
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

Genesis 3229 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.” But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel,...

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Your last couple of posts are like a form of Poisoning the Well. You are not trying to explain what is said but rather casting doubt either of what was said or the source of the statements.

I don't understand why my question would be difficult to answer and why you're evading.

What does the following mean regarding the Father: "from whom are all things"?

 

[Who Says]

All we need do is compare the both statements:

John 5:18 "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

John 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

That is why I point out that the Pharisees argued that Jesus was not better than them because they also had Abraham as their father.

There is a good chance it is as JudaicChristian says but I have found that if we always seek to keep it as simple as possible it seems that we always also end up finding a very simple and perfectly reasonable answer that does not require us to have a whole lot of our own wisdom. And I assert that we need to avoid our own wisdom as though it is a plague.

In the Pharisees minds they were all equals as sons with Abraham. They were Abraham's flesh from Abraham's body. When Jesus said he was before Abraham he basicly told them he was greater than Abraham. That combined with his telling them that he was God's Son (rather than Abraham's son since he could not be before Abraham and be Abraham's son), this coupled with their refusal to believe that he was anything but man born of flesh out of Nazareth is what caused them to gnash the accussation against Jesus claiming he said he was God.

If they really thought he had ever said he was God they would not ever had accused him of only saying he was equal to God. On top of that we never find Jesus himself saying he is God. We do see Jesus told them after that John 10:33 statement of the Pharisees:

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 10:35 may support what JudaicChristian says. But it could just be that he recognized that his saying he was God's Son was viewed as saying he was God just as they were Abraham's body.

Obviously Jesus understood the Pharisees in terms of him making himself equal with God.

My point is we can approach this two directions that both may be reasonable evidence supporting that Jesus never claimed to be God.

Since Jesus answered them saying, "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" I therefore cannot see what the Pharisees said at John 10:33 to be proof of anything other than their hateful seeking to find fault with Jesus, even imagining lies against him.

Still, I highly doubt Jesus could have understood the Pharisees to be claiming he said he was actually God or what Jesus said at John 10:35 would make no sense.

 

[Who Says]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. The Jews understood Jesus' statements--that he was God's Son and was one with the Father--as claiming to be God. Even if one argues that he was only claiming equality with the Father, that still supports a trinitarian position.


Who Christ is is absolutely central to our salvation. I do not think that "The key to understanding anything the Bible teaches is in becoming like a child," is a position that can be supported biblically. Indeed, even Paul states to get off the milk. The Bible is far more complex than, IMO, most Christians realize. It is a very difficult book to understand as it has many levels of understanding, which is made all the more difficult by it's antiquity--by our distance from both the language and the events.

For the bulk of your post that I omitted above I will just refer you to my post #294.

I did not say Jesus claimed equality. Jesus was much more humble than that. I said the Pharisees accused him of claiming because of the comparison to the way they view their relationship with their fleshly fathers. You must remember that these men believed they were entitled to the promises of Abraham just because they were Abraham's flesh. So naturally they would interpret Jesus as thinking that way when he told them God was his Father and that he was even before Abraham.

But I also believe Jesus' Father glorified Jesus with a great measure equality as reward for his perfect loyalty. And I believe any good father treats his loyal son, the apple of his eye, that way. Are we even so asleep that we cannot see that for God to listen to our petitions on behalf of others or for him to consult with Abraham about the destruction of Sodom is glorifying us with a measure of equality? God leads in the example that Jesus showed of putting himself below and serving. You do not know God at all if you see him like our human rulers who we cannot even talk to they are so good.

In that second paragraph above you are comparing apples and oranges. Two entirely different things. What you describe is about maturing in spiritual understanding.

These next verses are about childlike humility and being empty enough and hungry enough to learn:

Matthew 18:4 "Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

I don't mind if men want to make something simple complicated. That is their business. they don't confuse me. I don't necessarily like that they confuse others but I don't vex over it as I know I am nothing special and I only needed to surrender my heart to humility emptying myself of what I thought I knew and God began taking over teaching me. So I know that if they don't also do that it is on them. The best I can do for others is love them enough to share with them as I depend upon God and resist beginning to try to control things my own way.

But I want to add one more thing. I do not see anyone being condemned by God for believing Jesus is God or just the Son of God.

It will be the arguing about and hating of your brother either way you view who Jesus is that gets you condemned.

If you can learn to love as Jesus loves and keep God's commandments as Jesus does in a loving way, then you will live to find out how things like this really are later.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Your last couple of posts are like a form of Poisoning the Well. You are not trying to explain what is said but rather casting doubt either of what was said or the source of the statements.

I don't understand why my question would be difficult to answer and why you're evading.

What does the following mean regarding the Father: "from whom are all things"?

Romans 11:35 “Who has ever given to God,(Yahwah)
that God(Yahwah) should repay them?”
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Hebrews 2:10. For it became him, for whom are all things,(YAHWAH) and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation(YAHSHUA) perfect through sufferings.

11For both he that sanctifieth(YAHWAH) and they who are sanctified are all of one: (UNIFIDE) for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren(US)

According to these passages it is from Yahwah that all things came. It is my understanding that through Yahshua that all are made whole and complete in unity with Yahwah, through Yahshua.

 

[Eventide]

So here's a question...

WHO lives within the Christian..

1. The Father

2. The Son

3. The Holy Spirit

4. All of the above

5. None of the above

 

[Scotth1960]

The trinity IS a hard thing to grasp, I admit. As a 34 year baptist, even I have trouble wrapping my head around the "3 in 1" thing.

I would spend more time on it, but I don't see why I should. Christ died for my sins, I accepted His gift of salvation and try to live as He'd want me to. THAT is Christianity to me, THAT I can wrap my mind around - but the vast things of heaven are beyond my reach - like the stars are beyond my reach.

I have compared my intellect to God as my dog's is to mine - but that does not even work, God's intellect is WAY father ahead of mine, that mine is ahead of my dog's. I don't stand a chance of understanding something like the trinity - and anyone who claims to fully understand it, or understand the depth of God's love, or a thousand other deep truths of God - is deceiving us (and probably themselves, too).

If you dont' believe in the trinity, they you BETTER prepare to explain it when God speaks of "we" or "us" (depending on how it's translated) when He speaks of Himself.

Friend, I think we just need to trust and believe in God with our heart, and lean not on our own limited understanding. We will not understand God or His love. How He so loves us (John 3:16) is a great mystery, considering all people sometimes do to disobey God. He is love, inspite of the fact of human unworthiness. I'm no different than you. None of us can understand the Trinity, of "the depth of God's love", as you say it. Take care.

 

[JudaicChristian]

If 99% of the Trinity doctrine can be proved as misunderstood scripture, not correctly translated, or a complete fabrication; then shall we say that the 1% that we can not disprove is proof of a Trinity? There is a reason why Orthodox Judaism and Judaizing Christians never believed in a Trinity.

 

[warhorse]

If 99% of the Trinity doctrine can be proved as misunderstood scripture, not correctly translated, or a complete fabrication; then shall we say that the 1% that we can not disprove is proof of a Trinity? There is a reason why Orthodox Judaism and Judaizing Christians never believed in a Trinity.

Choosing not to believe does not change what is. 1% means your position is 100% wrong. Before christ came, no one thought of him as God. You have started with an incorect pos and followed it to its natural conclusion. UNSUSTAINABLE.