Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

[JudaicChristian]

Why not answer the question..

WHO lives within the Christian..?

The Father,
The Son,
The Holy Spirit,
All of the above,
None of the above..

Whomever we love, lives in our hearts and minds. Like I said before, "Holy Spirit" is a name title for Yahwah our Holy Father. Your question has been answered, but are you listening?

 

[JudaicChristian]

The Judaizing Christians who were in possesion of the original scriptures and copies; when they were captured by the Catholics, they would be burned alive along with the scriptures. The Catholics would then replace their scriptures with their own version of the word of God.

Here is a sample of Catholic scriptures.


The Ten Commandments

Protestant:First

Catholic:Second

Hebrew:third
1Pr. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

1Ca. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

1He. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

2Pr.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and (keep my commandments).

2Ca.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

2He.Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and (keep My commandments).

3Pr.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

3Ca.Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.

3He.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

4Pr. (Remember) the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

4Ca. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.

4He. (Remember)the sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work. But the seventh day is the sabbath in honor of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt not do any work, neither thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5Pr.Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

5Ca.Thou shalt not kill.

5He.Honour thy father and thy mother in order that thy days may be prolonged upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

6Pr.Thou shalt not kill.

6Ca.Thou shalt not commit adultery.

6He.Thou shalt not kill.

7Pr.Thou shalt not commit adultery.

7Ca.Thou shalt not steal.

7He.Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8Pr.Thou shalt not steal.

8Ca.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

8He.Thou shalt not steal.

9Pr.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

9Ca.Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife.

9He.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10Pr. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

10Ca.Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods.

10He.Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

Daniel 7:25. He will think to change times and laws.
Gods time and laws is the seventh day Sabbath and His commandments. Old and New Testament scripture has been changed to make people think that the commandments no longer apply.

 

[Eventide]

Whomever we love, lives in our hearts and minds. Like I said before, "Holy Spirit" is a name title for Yahwah our Holy Father. Your question has been answered, but are you listening?

According to scripture this is not true.. people do not live in our hearts because we love them. I love my wife and my children (and many others) although they do not LIVE within my heart.

Scripture also testifies that the Father is within the Christian, and that Christ lives within the Christian, and that the Holy Spirit lives within the Christian.

Do you have Christ in you, according to scripture ?

 

[Who Says]

Romans 11:35 “Who has ever given to God,(Yahwah)
that God(Yahwah) should repay them?”
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Hebrews 2:10. For it became him, for whom are all things,(YAHWAH) and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation(YAHSHUA) perfect through sufferings.

11For both he that sanctifieth(YAHWAH) and they who are sanctified are all of one: (UNIFIDE) for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren(US)

According to these passages it is from Yahwah that all things came. It is my understanding that through Yahshua that all are made whole and complete in unity with Yahwah, through Yahshua.

It should be noted that "through him" at Romans 11:36 is the same Greek word the KJV translates both "for him" and "by him" there at Hebrews 2:10. (dia)

The reason the same word is used twice at Hebrews 2:10 is to denote that the thing described in verse 11 takes place through Christ as a mediator between God and man in a two way action, God through Christ toward us and we toward God through Christ.

 

[JudaicChristian]

According to scripture this is not true.. people do not live in our hearts because we love them. I love my wife and my children (and many others) although they do not LIVE within my heart.

Scripture also testifies that the Father is within the Christian, and that Christ lives within the Christian, and that the Holy Spirit lives within the Christian.

Do you have Christ in you, according to scripture ?

If what you say is literally true, then God is not a Trinity, but a multitude.

 

[Who Says]

Holy Spirit is a name title for Yahwah our Holy Father, and Christ is a separate being apart from the Father. They are not one and the same, but unified. We are also called to be one with the Father. Why do I keep getting the feeling that some are not read the link page.

The problem here is that the word spirit is one of those multi-purpose words with seven different meanings attached to it in scripture, hinged on its root meaning "something invisible which exerts a force to cause a result".

The spirit in the air at a football game is one sense and it is often used that way in the Bible.

There is a will of the spirit and a desire of the flesh. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. That is about a force of character.

I had to take a long nap after walking a long distance today but will present you a few things on this before too long that will jog your brain cells.

"Do you have Christ in you, according to scripture ?" Not literally, NO. We have the spirit of Christ in us which merely means our spirit is conformed to his spirit. That way (particularly as to the elect) we are able to be holy as a part of his body that his Father's spirit can dwell among us in that body, we being that body's members. But it works only that way whether elect or non-elect to be a part of the bride. Some of us are but bridesmaids. Still that is how it works for us.

Your divisions over this subject will not end until you properly understand what the spirit is. Until then fancily stories like those belonging to children will keep it confused.

And trying to help others see how this really goes is comparable to trying to tell little children that Santa Claus is not real. We are often perceived as cruel and as haters by some merely for trying to help free them of their childhood fantacies.

I also want to emphasize that having a few child-like stories to grow out of is not anything but normal.

I am sure that God looks at our hearts and is amused more often than we realize. It is we humans that slice and dice each other with these things as though they indicate something negative about us. That is the evil God hates and not the innocent child-like imagination itself.

Still, if we desire to mature as Christians we must humbly work on maturing our powers of understanding.

Cursed is the one who pridefully elevates his own stature in his imagination by hating others because of such things. And such a one does not need us to sit in judgment over him for that to be so. Such a one curses his own self by means of his seeing himself as a judge.

May we not fall into the same trap because of his sin. May we not prove to be like him, even toward him, because of him.

 

[Eventide]

If what you say is literally true, then God is not a Trinity, but a multitude.

Well, sorry to inform you that the bible DOES teach that the Father is within the Christian, that Christ is within the Christian, and that the Holy Spirit lives within the Christian..

Do you deny that ? Don't take my word for it, read it for yourself.

Is Christ in you ?

 

[JudaicChristian]

Well, sorry to inform you that the bible DOES teach that the Father is within the Christian, that Christ is within the Christian, and that the Holy Spirit lives within the Christian..

Do you deny that ? Don't take my word for it, read it for yourself.

Is Christ in you ?

Are the scriptures that follow after Matt 13:10 literal or parable?

Matthew 13:10
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?â€

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

John 17:22
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one...

1 Corinthians 10:17
Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

 

[Eventide]

Are the scriptures that follow after Matt 13:10 literal or parable?

Matthew 13:10
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?â€

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

John 17:22
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one...

1 Corinthians 10:17
Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

Answering a question with a question.. ?

We are one with God because we ARE the body of Christ.. and that's our hope of glory isn't it..? Christ in us !

 

[Who Says]

Well, sorry to inform you that the bible DOES teach that the Father is within the Christian, that Christ is within the Christian, and that the Holy Spirit lives within the Christian..

Do you deny that ? Don't take my word for it, read it for yourself.

Is Christ in you ?

Not only does it use expressions like:

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

But it also says of Christ: Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Hey, you must have sympathy for anyone that is confused by such language.

Let's follow that last one through just a bit:

How do we put on Christ?

Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him"

Colossians 3:12 "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;"

Colossians 3:14 "And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness."

That is why Romans 8:9 But ye [as Christ's body] are not [walking] in the [will of your own] flesh, but in the [will of Christ's] Spirit, if so be that the [will induced of the] Spirit of God dwell in you [as Christ's body]. Now if any man have not the [will and motivation induced of the] Spirit of Christ [but is instead guided by his own selfish will and motivations], he is none of his (That is, does not belong to Christ and cannot be Christ's body). (The point is simply that one cannot claim to be the body of Christ if they are not motivated by the same will and spirit that motivates Christ.)

Romans 8:10 "And if [the spirit of] Christ be in you [who are the body of Christ], the body [of Christ being impaled at Calvary *** ] is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. "

*** Romans 6:7 "For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall (or, should) also live (by spirit) with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."


Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him (God) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you (the body of Christ), he (God) that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies (individually as in the purification of the utensils used in the temple) by his Spirit that dwelleth in you (the body of Christ).

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Take careful note how I adhered closely to the use of the plural Greek pronouns in the texts with the little explanatory thoughts I inserted for clarification purposes. Look them up if you need convincing that they ought to be understood as plural.

 

[Eventide]

lol Hey, you must have sympathy for anyone that is confused by such language.

You're right, not many people seem to understand or believe that Christ is in them.

 

[Who Says]

You're right, not many people seem to understand or believe that Christ is in them.

I would reword that slightly.

Not many people seem to understand how Christ lives in them.

They want to see Christ live in them like a Greyhound bus driver, who says "and leave the driving to me" while they just lay back in their comfortable bus seat doing nothing.

They miss the point that none of Paul's counsel concerning it would have even been necessary if that were so. We have to maintain Christ in us for him to live in us. That means keeping ourselves clean and usable in the temple of Christ's body. We participate in keeping Christ's body holy that the spirit of God be able to dwell among us as body members in the visible body of Christ walking this earth.

Romans 12:1 ¶I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

And this way we cooperate with Christ as he cleanses and beautifies his body that it shines brightly as a witness to this world of the goodness of God's holiness.

1 Corinthians 3:17 "If any man [as an individual] defile the temple of God [which is Christ's body], him shall God destroy; for the temple of God [Christ's body] is holy, which temple ye [ye, plural in the Greek, "all of you together"] are.

You can also let the spirit of the world live in you.

You can also let the spirit of the wicked one live in you.

You can let the spirit of your favorite TV movie star live in you or your favorite football hero live in you. You can put them on and imitate them.

The difference is that if you want God to bless you and your life then you must make only His Son your role model. Then as you put on the image of Christ in your life you will become as a son to God and he will care for you as a son.

Get those other icons and idols out of the way. They only assist you to corrupt the glory of the image of God you were created to be.

Romans 1:22 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."

Most are so busy admiring and emulating impressive human heroes that they pattern themselves in their spirit after theirs.

They admire the lion for its courage, the bull for its strength, the hawk for its alertness, the leopard for its stealth, and on and on, while they go about ignoring God. They willingly pattern themselves after the traits of these things rather than patterning themselves after God's Son.

And no wonder, for they could have patterned themselves after God's son if Adam had not sinned. They thus became lost worshiping the creation more than the creator. Those things are impressive but only in a very small way compared to God. Even when they are used honorably they are but a small reflection of God's glory.

Romans 1:25 "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."

If anyone does not understand that this is what this all is all about, then they have not begun to learn yet.

We can be as Romans 12:2 says, "conformed to this world", or we can choose to conform to no one but Christ who is the perfect image of God and the brightness of His [the Father's] glory.

So then as church elect we are faced with how to help others to see this and how to deal with those that resist it (for it is necessary that we protect and maintain the holiness of the body of Christ).

We have every kind of example around us from extreme disregard and permissiveness, to a recreation of harsh Pharisaical type rule.

Yet, the scripture is complete in telling us how to do it properly.

 

[Eventide]

Not many people seem to understand how Christ lives in them.

With respect to this.. who do you see the OLD MAN and the NEW MAN as, in scripture.. ie, put off the old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts, and put on the NEW MAN who is created in righteousness and true holiness..

Do you see your OLD man as yourself.. born naturally through your parents according to the flesh..?

How about the NEW man.. do you see that as Christ in you..?

 

[Who Says]

With respect to this.. who do you see the OLD MAN and the NEW MAN as, in scripture.. ie, put off the old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts, and put on the NEW MAN who is created in righteousness and true holiness..

Do you see your OLD man as yourself.. born naturally through your parents according to the flesh..?

How about the NEW man.. do you see that as Christ in you..?

Watch out for word games on that subject. Let's keep it simple. Remember that it is ONE New Man in Christ. Therefore it compares to ONE Old Man in the first Adam who sinned and which we were naturally born to. And individually our choice is to exhibit by the actions of our faith which body it is that we are a part of. We cannot be a part of both or that is infidelity.

If we claim to be a part of Christ's undefiled body then we must be dead to the flesh that was the Old defiled Adam, walking in its own concept of good and evil and pursuing its own will as though it were sufficient. Grace will cover some degree of the error in our walk as we genuinely strive to put on the spirit of Christ making it our own, but that is a mercy that will not last forever if we fail to appreciate its purpose.

This is the point of 2 Corinthians 6:1 "And you also we, as God's fellow workers, entreat not to be found to have received His grace to no purpose." (WEY)

2 Corinthians 6:1 "We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain." (KJV)

 

[Eventide]

Watch out for word games on that subject. Let's keep it simple. Remember that it is ONE New Man in Christ.

I agree to keeping it simple.. that's why I was asking.. do you believe that the new man IS Christ in you.. ?

 

[Who Says]

I agree to keeping it simple.. that's why I was asking.. do you believe that the new man IS Christ in you.. ?

Every time I come back and look at your question it seems as though you are asking something different than I at first thought. My brain and my body are going through a bad spell.

But I have to say, no. The new man IS NOT Christ in me, it is me and many others in him.

There is only ONE New Man and that is Christ's body. Ephesians 2:15 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

We are (if we are a part of his body) Ephesians 2:10 God's "... workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

The New Man is the body of Christ. The Bible is very clear about that. I can be no more than a newly created member organ of the body of that New Man. If that Man is made New his body parts also have to be made New. But a body part by itself does not make a man. The man requires all his body parts and they would be nothing without the head.

But reasonably if I were part of your body you would have your spirit working in me rather than me operating in you by means of my own independent spirit, right? After all I would have to fulfill the needs of your body and only your spirit knows what your body needs are. I mean else I would cause conflict to your body and your body would not be healthy.

How many people have you ever known that were such big fans of Elvis that they tried to act like him, talk like him, walk like him, and for all practical appearances be him? Look at the fad James Dean got started with motorcycles. We have our John Waynes and GI Joes, our Rambos and our Karate Kids. It is plenty evident when we look around us that we humans have a capacity to emulate the spirit of another human. Anyone that thinks video games are not shaping our children's minds and attitudes are deaf, dumb, and blind. That is what putting on Christ is about, only with the added advantage that the putting on of Christ is the one thing out of all of those things that the Father will bless. It is not the mystical thing many fanciful thinkers desire it to be.

 

[Oats]

Do not beat your ass in front of the angel of the Lord!:waving

? : ?

 

[Eventide]

There is only ONE New Man and that is Christ's body.

Ok, so you do believe that Christ is in you.

 

[Who Says]

OK, so you do believe that Christ is in you.

I was working on that last post when you posted this.

Perhaps you can identify specifically what it is I am saying that is confusing you? For I believe that throughout my posts I have answered that question many times.

Christ does not literally live in men. Here is the verse that men use to claim that Christ does. But what is it really saying?

Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

That then brings what Paul said down to this: Romans 1:17 "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Paul there says that Christ living in him depends upon "the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God". So it is our faith in Christ that causes us to walk in the footsteps of Christ. And if we by faith walk as Christ walks that is as if Christ lives in us. For we walk according to his will (his spirit) rather than our own. And that means something because it is a choice we make. It is not something that is done for us. It is something we choose to do. And when we choose to do it God blesses our efforts at doing it. He reaches in to help us with a little help, but not so much as would harm our growth to maturity.

Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 ¶Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Do you realize that even the old man there at Colossians 3:9 is the one body of flesh of Adam?

 

[Elijah674]

I was working on that last post when you posted this.

Perhaps you can identify specifically what it is I am saying that is confusing you? For I believe that throughout my posts I have answered that question many times.

Christ does not literally live in men. Here is the verse that men use to claim that Christ does. But what is it really saying?

Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

That then brings what Paul said down to this: Romans 1:17 "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Paul there says that Christ living in him depends upon "the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God". So it is our faith in Christ that causes us to walk in the footsteps of Christ. And if we by faith walk as Christ walks that is as if Christ lives in us. For we walk according to his will (his spirit) rather than our own. And that means something because it is a choice we make. It is not something that is done for us. It is something we choose to do. And when we choose to do it God blesses our efforts at doing it. He reaches in to help us with a little help, but not so much as would harm our growth to maturity.

Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 ¶Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Rom. 8:1 might help your good post?
--Elijah