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Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.

The word "echad" can also mean "only," the same is true in the English language.
This line of reasoning has already been addressed in this or another related thread.

Here is the relevant argument once more.

Consider this text from 1 Corinthians 8:

Therefore concerning the eating of (H)things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

I will argue that this text demonstrates that Paul believes that Jesus shares divinity with God the Father. This argument has two essential elements: (1) that Jewish monotheism was never an inner analysis of the nature of “God” (i.e. an analysis of the possibility, or lack thereof, of multiple “persons” within “God”) but was rather a polemic against pagan gods; and (2) that Paul clearly stitches Jesus into the Shema, the most central of Jewish declarations about God.

Pre-conceptions are so difficult to shake. Many who come to the Trinity debate do so in a state of relative ignorance about what the Bible (and other historical sources) tell us about the nature of the Jewish Old Testament claim that there is only “one god”. Almost everyone, including many people who affirm the Trinity, think that this is a claim that there can be no “inner multiplicity of persons” within the Godhead. And I am not sure how Trinitarians who believe this accommodate such a position with their view that there are in fact, three persons in the Godhead.

However, this is simply not what the Jew is saying when s/he claims that there is only one God. What the Bible (and history) tells us, instead, is that this “God is one” claim is essentially a battle-cry against pagans – by declaring “our God is one”, the Jew is really saying that the gods of the pagans are worthless idols. So the declaration “our God is one” is really directed outward at the pagans their gods, it is not an inward-looking analysis of the nature of Israel’s God.

And Paul clearly has precisely this outward-looking view. In the text from 1 Corinthians, Paul quotes a number of Old Testament passages, including the famous shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 (Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!), and sets the “God is one” claim right in the middle of a critique of pagan gods. In doing so, he is doing precisely what is done in the Old Testament. When Paul asserts the “oneness” of Israel’s God, he is not talking about the inner nature of the Godhead – he is plugging into to the running Jewish polemic against pagan gods. And as will be demonstrated next, it is clear that Paul is, in fact, making the argument that, indeed, there is multiplicity in the Godhead.

Here, again, is the famous shema text which Paul alludes to in the 1 Corinthians text and which would be well known to any Jew:

Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

Now not what Paul does with this – he says this:

there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ

Note how in the shema the terms “Lord” and “God” are both terms used to refer to the “one”. And yet Paul has teased these two descriptors apart, applying the latter to “the Father” and the former to Jesus. Do you see what Paul is doing – he is taking the quintessential Jewish expression of the oneness of Israel’s God and he is placing Jesus right in the middle of that (along with the Father, of course). How much clearer can Paul possibly be - Jesus is to be understood as part and parcel of that which is referred to when the Jew declares “the Lord our God is one”. Therefore, we cannot read Paul as doing anything other than declaring the divinity of Jesus.

So here we have a Biblical argument – not one that appeals to external sources – that shows that Paul sees Jesus as belonging to the referent of this most Jewish of sayings: “the Lord our God is one”.
 
But the point is that echad is more of less the equivalent of our word "one" and can mean "a compound or collective one" or mean "absolute or singular one." We use one to say "I have one dollar" and we use it to say "one nation under God." Therefore, Moses's use in Deut. 6:4 can literally just mean there is one God, as opposed to two or ten thousand. I don't think we should go beyond what the text is saying.

When our Lord God said, “Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil…” suggests that the LORD God was not alone by himself, correct?

That is quite interesting but I'm not so sure I would agree, if I'm understanding you correctly that is. We need to be able to understand what God says when he speaks, and if he is actually three despite saying that he is one, then that creates all sorts of difficulties for everything else he reveals to us.

Of course not..... In fact, the Scripture has been teaching us all along that God is a compound unity of three distinct and separate Gods....…. Look…

Here’s a good Biblical example of separation and distinction of our God from each other… simultaneously as recorded in the Scripture.

During Christ's baptism:

The Father is God (in heaven)
+ Jesus who is also God (on the River Jordan)
+ The Holy Spirit who is also God (descending on Jesus)
___________________

= ONE GOD (As far as the Mystical Union of God is concerned) but THREE GODS (as far as man is concerned)

“For there are three (numeric) that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three (numeric) are one (unity).” (1 John 5:7)

I have to give this more thought though. Do you agree that they are all the same substance and each God in a way that is truly God, yet only one Being? In short, do you believe the doctrine of the Trinity?

Yes and No. As a matter of fact, I don’t have a problem with the three Persons in ONE God … collective one that is...... = my version of Trinity.

The fact is, the usage of the word “Echad” (Collective One) in Gen. 2:24 and Deut. 6:4… is not applied to the distinctions WITHIN one entity. It was applied to a multiple or collective entities. You may draw ONE circle with three distinct colors WITHIN but that can hardly be called “collective one” because the entity (i.e., circle) remains one.

God Bless
 
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Drew wrote: Consider this text from 1 Corinthians 8:

Therefore concerning the eating of (H)things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

There is no mention of the Holy Spirit in that passage. And there is no mention of a Trinity.
 
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It has just disproved it.
Trinity is either 3 Gods that are just 1 God, which is mathematically impossible. OR it is three 1/3 Gods that make up 1 God, which is mathematically true but is not what the scriptures say.
Once again, math can neither prove nor disprove God. I will not be addressing this silliness again.

mamre said:
You are spinning dangerously. Jesus Christ IS NOT a distinct state of God. He is the SON OF GOD. Neither the Father, nor the Holy Ghost are distinct states of God. This is not scripture.

This is NOT Christian doctrine at all.
The point is this: Scripture shows that Jesus is God but it also clearly shows he is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit, and that there is only one God.


mamre said:
Yes, I agree with you very much, language indeed limits us. But Math doesn't.

So, you say 3Persons = 1God

The problem with this is that when you say 3P than it may or may not be 3 Gods. We need to be precise as the truth is precise. And we must agree with the scriptures. Therefore, what you are saying is that a P is may not necessarily be a G. Or, in other words, the Persons in the Trinity may or may not be Gods.
I have been precise.

mamre said:
Lets say they are 3P then:

You said again: Trinity is One Being made up of Three other Beings. Since the Scriptures say that Jesus is God and the Holy Ghost and the Father are Gods also, I will stick with the scriptures.
Once again I have to tell you that that is not what I have said.

If you are going to continually twist what I have stated then I am done discussing this with you. You clearly do not know what the doctrine of the Trinity states and re-word it to set up straw man arguments.
 
If Trinitarianism is true, then why didn't Yahwah or the prophets say so? Why did it take people who were not prophets of Yahwah, but men who were recent converts from Paganism to reveal this?

Please address Drew's post on this matter.

JudaicChristian said:
The word "echad" can also mean "only," the same is true in the English language.
JudaicChristian said:

Which is what I have stated.
 
If you are going to stick with scripture, throw the math out.
If you are going to stick to an equation, throw scripture out.

I love math and science, but I would never apply a mathematical formula to the trinity. :screwloose

Pizzaguy,

Every, and a mean EVERY truth comes from God, no matter where you find it. Every true knowledge comes from God no matter where you find it. He is the source of all truth. If I throw math out I am throwing truth out. How can I obtain a knowledge of God if I reject truth and accept speculations and philosophies of man?

Consider this:
An engineer uses math to find the truth (precise measurements, foundation, wind factor, etc.) on how to build a bridge that stands. A biochemist uses math to find out the truth about the dosage of elements in order to create a medicine for a specific illness. Musicians use math to put the notes, tempo, beat, etc. in a precise manner as to create a sound that pleases the ear and sooths the soul. And so on and so forth.

Math deals with truth. Truth, as you know, comes from God. Math has been an instrument for good because it allows men to find the truth about things, about the laws of the universe, which, by the way was created by God.

If you throw math away, you throw basically civilization away. Math is one of the instruments our Father in Heaven has given us to find knowledge, to find about His creation and therefore about Him. When scientists find a law of nature they may not admit (or know) it, but they found out a little bit about God Himself. As the scriptures say, everything bears witness of the existence and majesty of God. If I throw math out I am blinding myself and would have to live in fear of the unknown.

So I stick with scripture and with math, because both come from God and, therefore, are way better then the interpretations of man. Math as well as the scriptures, help you to not err.

have a great day,
mamre
 
Faith or math, it makes no difference. 1 in 3, or 3 in 1. Both can be true in math or faith. Since the days of Abraham there have been Trinities, beginning in Babel. Abraham would have known about such things because he grew up near Babel and Nineveh. It is not beyond mans understanding in math or faith, it just simply is not taught. All of the scriptures that suggest such a thing are contested as having been falsified, as a matter of historical documentation.
 
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Pizzaguy,

Every, and a mean EVERY truth comes from God, no matter where you find it. Every true knowledge comes from God no matter where you find it. He is the source of all truth. If I throw math out I am throwing truth out. How can I obtain a knowledge of God if I reject truth and accept speculations and philosophies of man?

Consider this:
An engineer uses math to find the truth (precise measurements, foundation, wind factor, etc.) on how to build a bridge that stands. A biochemist uses math to find out the truth about the dosage of elements in order to create a medicine for a specific illness. Musicians use math to put the notes, tempo, beat, etc. in a precise manner as to create a sound that pleases the ear and sooths the soul. And so on and so forth.

Math deals with truth. Truth, as you know, comes from God. Math has been an instrument for good because it allows men to find the truth about things, about the laws of the universe, which, by the way was created by God.

If you throw math away, you throw basically civilization away. Math is one of the instruments our Father in Heaven has given us to find knowledge, to find about His creation and therefore about Him. When scientists find a law of nature they may not admit (or know) it, but they found out a little bit about God Himself. As the scriptures say, everything bears witness of the existence and majesty of God. If I throw math out I am blinding myself and would have to live in fear of the unknown.

So I stick with scripture and with math, because both come from God and, therefore, are way better then the interpretations of man. Math as well as the scriptures, help you to not err.

have a great day,
mamre

You are trying to use math from a natural world and apply it to the supernatural. It just does not work. I reference Isaiah 55:8-9.

I think pizza guy will agree with this as well. :)
 


When our Lord God said, “Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil…†suggests that the LORD God was not alone by himself, correct?



Of course not..... In fact, the Scripture has been teaching us all along that God is a compound unity of three distinct and separate Gods....…. Look…

Here’s a good Biblical example of separation and distinction of our God from each other… simultaneously as recorded in the Scripture.

During Christ's baptism:

The Father is God (in heaven)
+ Jesus who is also God (on the River Jordan)
+ The Holy Spirit who is also God (descending on Jesus)
___________________

= ONE GOD (As far as the Mystical Union of God is concerned) but THREE GODS (as far as man is concerned)

“For there are three (numeric) that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three (numeric) are one (unity).†(1 John 5:7)



Yes and No. As a matter of fact, I don’t have a problem with the three Persons in ONE God … collective one that is...... = my version of Trinity.

The fact is, the usage of the word “Echad†(Collective One) in Gen. 2:24 and Deut. 6:4… is not applied to the distinctions WITHIN one entity. It was applied to a multiple or collective entities. You may draw ONE circle with three distinct colors WITHIN but that can hardly be called “collective one†because the entity (i.e., circle) remains one.

God Bless


The baptism of Jesus Christ where the three members of the Godhead were present is not an evidence for a "compound God" or for the Trinity theory. It is simply an evidence that they are three and that they are distinct and separated persons. There is nothing compound about it. On the contrary, the interaction shows clearly that they are three separate persons.

The "concept" of Trinity is not in the scriptures.

You don't need the concept of trinity to show that there is ONLY ONE God to us.

Just read the scriptures:
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

(emphazis added)

Who is the ONLY ONE GOD to us? The scriptures say THE FATHER.

The scriptures say also that all things belong to Him. All means everything else, including Jesus Christ (who confirmed that), and the Holy Ghost. Everything that is not Him, belongs to Him, and the Son also belongs to Him.

Paul explains clearly that there is no Trinity: TO US THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, THE FATHER.

What part of that scripture you don't like?

Think of this scripture as this:
How many biological fathers (true father) do you have or can have? Only one.
How many Heavenly Fathers (the only God to you) do you have or can have? ONLY ONE.

The same way you have ONLY one father on earth, you have ONLY one Father in Heaven.
That is why Jesus Christ refers to Him as 'our Heavenly Father,' which is the only God for us.

have a good one,
mamre
 
You are trying to use math from a natural world and apply it to the supernatural. It just does not work. I reference Isaiah 55:8-9.

I think pizza guy will agree with this as well. :)

I too agree perfectly with that scripture. That is why I have written all theses posts, because the Trinity is not the though of God. It is the thought of man. The concept of Trinity is not in the scripture. Look at 1Cor 8:5-6.

Besides, Math is not a false thinking. It is a true thinking and everything that is true comes from God. If we open our spirits to Him we can understand His thoughts by and by. And, if we are humble we can be in the higher way with Him. Jesus showed and prepared the way for us to do just that.

mamre
 
It looks like the ankle bitters have began putting there 2 cents in. Do you wish to continue, or is it time to delete this thread? It does not matter to me.
 
The baptism of Jesus Christ where the three members of the Godhead were present is not an evidence for a "compound God" or for the Trinity theory. It is simply an evidence that they are three and that they are distinct and separated persons. There is nothing compound about it. On the contrary, the interaction shows clearly that they are three separate persons.

The "concept" of Trinity is not in the scriptures.

You don't need the concept of trinity to show that there is ONLY ONE God to us.

Just read the scriptures:
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(emphazis added)

Who is the ONLY ONE GOD to us? The scriptures say THE FATHER.

The scriptures say also that all things belong to Him. All means everything else, including Jesus Christ (who confirmed that), and the Holy Ghost. Everything that is not Him, belongs to Him, and the Son also belongs to Him.

Paul explains clearly that there is no Trinity: TO US THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, THE FATHER.

What part of that scripture you don't like?

Think of this scripture as this:
How many biological fathers (true father) do you have or can have? Only one.
How many Heavenly Fathers (the only God to you) do you have or can have? ONLY ONE.

The same way you have ONLY one father on earth, you have ONLY one Father in Heaven.
That is why Jesus Christ refers to Him as 'our Heavenly Father,' which is the only God for us.

have a good one,
mamre

Dear mamre,

But... you guys don't even know who and what's the name of the invisible Almighty God Father is... the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ... how could you argue about this with me?

Unless of course you believe YHWH is the invisible God and not the Son, himself, the Christ. Then prove it.

Have ye not known... Have ye not heard that the Son of God is the Lord God of the Old Testament... our Father?

Also, do you really believe that the God of the Old Testment (the Son) is a different God of the New Testament?

I am all ears....


PS: Also, I believe you;re intentionally misquoting me above (see in red color) - "compound God" - in order to provide your straw man's argument using the concept of trinity... falaciously... against me.

Now, here again is my quote below... let me know which compound unity of God... you are having problem understanding. Thanks

Of course not..... In fact, the Scripture has been teaching us all along that God is a compound unity of three distinct and separate Gods....…. Look…

Here’s a good Biblical example of separation and distinction of our God from each other… simultaneously as recorded in the Scripture.

During Christ's baptism:

The Father is God (in heaven)
+ Jesus who is also God (on the River Jordan)
+ The Holy Spirit who is also God (descending on Jesus)
___________________

= ONE GOD (As far as the Mystical Union of God is concerned) but THREE GODS (as far as man is concerned)

“For there are three (numeric) that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three (numeric) are one (unity).” (1 John 5:7)
 
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Faith or math, it makes no difference. 1 in 3, or 3 in 1. Both can be true in math or faith. Since the days of Abraham there have been Trinities, beginning in Babel. Abraham would have known about such things because he grew up near Babel and Nineveh. It is not beyond mans understanding in math or faith, it just simply is not taught. All of the scriptures that suggest such a thing are contested as having been falsified, as a matter of historical documentation.

There certainly is no other subject that has succeeded to roll complexity into what would otherwise be a relatively simple discussion of the Bible's message. And that is powerful incentive for Satan to get behind one or the other of these views and push them.

Think about all the important things of scripture which are relegated to second place in favor of using certain sections of scripture for arguing the Trinity.

The primary point Paul had in mind when he wrote Philippians 2:5-11 was an attitude we can imitate of Christ. Certainly we cannot imitate thinking it not robbery to be equal to God.


(Sorry. Somehow I omitted here that I had changed to speaking about Hebrews chapter one as another example.) Another How many people are aware that Paul is there discussing with the Hebrews who their Hebrew brother Jesus was in the flesh. The importance of this discussion was to firmly establish among them and in their minds how to defend that Jesus was indeed the foretold Messiah and what his functions are as that Messiah. Making it about Jesus being God distracts from Paul's theme and misrepresents Paul's words.


There are many places in the scriptures where the writer's mind-set is obscured by infusuing the Trinity belief upon the scripture context.


For that reason this is no small matter in urgency to sort our way through.

JudaicChristian, I found your Thread Post very well done. It is not yet as complete as it could be but very well said but for minor points.


I hope that as iron sharpens iron we can add what we see together so that both of us might obtain an even more powerful presentation on this subject.


In some ways this may even involve other subjects. I look forward to exchange with you.
 
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This line of reasoning has already been addressed in this or another related thread.

Here is the relevant argument once more.

Consider this text from 1 Corinthians 8:

Therefore concerning the eating of (H)things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

I will argue that this text demonstrates that Paul believes that Jesus shares divinity with God the Father. This argument has two essential elements: (1) that Jewish monotheism was never an inner analysis of the nature of “God†(i.e. an analysis of the possibility, or lack thereof, of multiple “persons†within “Godâ€) but was rather a polemic against pagan gods; and (2) that Paul clearly stitches Jesus into the Shema, the most central of Jewish declarations about God.

Pre-conceptions are so difficult to shake. Many who come to the Trinity debate do so in a state of relative ignorance about what the Bible (and other historical sources) tell us about the nature of the Jewish Old Testament claim that there is only “one godâ€. Almost everyone, including many people who affirm the Trinity, think that this is a claim that there can be no “inner multiplicity of persons†within the Godhead. And I am not sure how Trinitarians who believe this accommodate such a position with their view that there are in fact, three persons in the Godhead.

However, this is simply not what the Jew is saying when s/he claims that there is only one God. What the Bible (and history) tells us, instead, is that this “God is one†claim is essentially a battle-cry against pagans – by declaring “our God is oneâ€, the Jew is really saying that the gods of the pagans are worthless idols. So the declaration “our God is one†is really directed outward at the pagans their gods, it is not an inward-looking analysis of the nature of Israel’s God.

And Paul clearly has precisely this outward-looking view. In the text from 1 Corinthians, Paul quotes a number of Old Testament passages, including the famous shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 (Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!), and sets the “God is one†claim right in the middle of a critique of pagan gods. In doing so, he is doing precisely what is done in the Old Testament. When Paul asserts the “oneness†of Israel’s God, he is not talking about the inner nature of the Godhead – he is plugging into to the running Jewish polemic against pagan gods. And as will be demonstrated next, it is clear that Paul is, in fact, making the argument that, indeed, there is multiplicity in the Godhead.

Here, again, is the famous shema text which Paul alludes to in the 1 Corinthians text and which would be well known to any Jew:

Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

Now not what Paul does with this – he says this:

there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ

Note how in the shema the terms “Lord†and “God†are both terms used to refer to the “oneâ€. And yet Paul has teased these two descriptors apart, applying the latter to “the Father†and the former to Jesus. Do you see what Paul is doing – he is taking the quintessential Jewish expression of the oneness of Israel’s God and he is placing Jesus right in the middle of that (along with the Father, of course). How much clearer can Paul possibly be - Jesus is to be understood as part and parcel of that which is referred to when the Jew declares “the Lord our God is oneâ€. Therefore, we cannot read Paul as doing anything other than declaring the divinity of Jesus.

So here we have a Biblical argument – not one that appeals to external sources – that shows that Paul sees Jesus as belonging to the referent of this most Jewish of sayings: “the Lord our God is oneâ€.


I have never really felt like this was all that complicated.
1 John For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these THREE are one.
steam, water,and ice, all three are H2O. 1 substance in three forms. just like you are mind ,body and spirit. 3 parts 1 human being. dont over think it God the father would be the mind and intelect of The Godhead. jesus would be his physical image. and the holy spirit would be just that the will and spirit of God. 3 manifestations of 1 being.
 
The question here is, the sacrifice of one man can save all men, or God's self-sacrifice saved men. The anti-Christ would like you to believe in the former in order to ridicule Jesus Christ.

John 20:28
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Jesus Christ didn't reject Thomas, it means that He accepted Thomas treating Him as God. And it is out of your own pride to think that you know better than Thomas (the Thomas at that moment).

Jesus did not declare Himself God because openly declaring God is a direct offense to the Jews and will be subject to death penalty. He doesn't want the Jews to find such a fault in Him as He's supposed to die as a clean sheep (even the Jews should not be able to find fault in Him).

And Jesus Christ Himself called God the Father His God. As a result, His Trinity is the only valid explanation.

Now, choose your own stance, being with Christ and God, or being with the anti-Christ. Be warned, your dragging of souls away from God may cause the backfire onto yourself, as God cares about souls.
 
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Genesis 126 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image,...
The words "let us" is an interpretation for the Hebrew word "we" imperfect. It is used a number of times in scripture to refer to ones self. AKA the "Royal We." In those places it should have been translated as "I" for the English language. All of the Trinity proof text are either poor translations or complete fabrications. Yahshua was a immortal being from the kingdom of heaven placed in Mary's womb. In Heaven he was known as Peniel, but born named Yahshua. While visiting the Judaic Christian Forum you may want to read some of the other threads.

Funny how people love to rewrite scripture to make it fit what they personally believe.

Sorry, but that is complete nonsense.

I don't think it is right to send people from this forum to some other forum to read their threads.
 
Homoousios
The Nicene Christian Greek term ὁμοούσιος was used before the formation of the Nicene Creed by the Gnostics also, but it didn't carry the same meaning. It regarded the fact that all deities come from the same source, and was revealed through emanations, much like the Kabbalah teaches that the divine light emanates from Ein Sof, and takes form in the lower worlds.
Origin may have been the first Christian to use that term, and he attributed Jesus divinity to a lesser degree than to God the Father.

In the Nicene Creed, it is clear that the Son is "very God of very God," so ὁμοούσιος is taken to mean absolutely of the same eternal substance as the Father. homoousios ὁμοούσιος, a Nicene Christian Greek term meaning "being of the same substance".

Ein Sof (or Ayn Sof) (Hebrew אין סוף), in Kabbalah, is understood as God prior to His self-manifestation in the production of any spiritual Realm, probably derived from Ibn Gabirol's term, "the Endless One" (she-en lo tiklah). Ein Sof may be translated as "no end," "unending," "there is no end," or Infinite.
 
Funny how people love to rewrite scripture to make it fit what they personally believe.

Sorry, but that is complete nonsense.

I don't think it is right to send people from this forum to some other forum to read their threads.
It is my choice and the choice of the mods here. This thread here may only be temporary. It is a lot of work to re-edit a long thread for another forum.
 
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