Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

[Who Says]

I disagree with your religious assumption.

Either you tell us who the Father is... or declare that YHWH, is not God. Only then... you will have a basis of argument. You can NOT have it both ways.

The fact is, If you agree, that, it was the Son of God (YHWH) himself - not the invisible God Father - who physically made or formed man from the dust of the ground (Gen.2:7)... based on the Scripture... then, technically the Son is our Father in heaven... not the invisible God himself... the Father of YHWH.... whose name is not yet been revealed to anyone at this time.

Now, do you know the name of the invisible FATHER of whom you say he is your God?


I will be waiting for your answer. Thanks

John 8
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, ("ek" literally "out of") whom are all things, and we, ("eis" literally "into" or, "toward and into") him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, ("dia" literally "through") whom are all things, and we ("dia" literally "through") him.

I see a picture there clearly painted in words.
We see on one side of the picture "God" as YHWH.
We see on the other side of the picture "we".
And it shows like a line with an arrow coming out of YHWH directed to us and a line with an arrow coming out of us directed toward God.
It does not show us stopping at the Son but passing through him "dia" to God, even as it does not show God stopping at the Son but passing through "dia" him to us.

Ponder your prepositions in that verse.

 

[4given]

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, ("ek" literally "out of") whom are all things, and we, ("eis" literally "into" or, "toward and into") him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, ("dia" literally "through") whom are all things, and we ("dia" literally "through") him.

I see a picture there clearly painted in words.
We see on one side of the picture "God" as YHWH.
We see on the other side of the picture "we".
And it shows like a line with an arrow coming out of YHWH directed to us and a line with an arrow coming out of us directed toward God.
It does not show us stopping at the Son but passing through him "dia" to God, even as it does not show God stopping at the Son but passing through "dia" him to us.

Ponder your prepositions in that verse.

Then you and your followers can keep pondering with your religious imagination above.... for all I care. However, the question remains unanswered....

Do you know who the FATHER is.... of whom ye say he is your God?

3rd Request.

 

[4given]

Jesus is God and was with the Father before the beginning of the Physical World. When God said, Let there be Light (Gen. 1:3), Jesus or YHWH came forth (begotten) from the invisible Spirit of Love into the Physical World and became the Only God ever Physically formed or that ever will be Physically formed. He was Not Created, since He was already God... at the bosom of the Father in the beginning.

Jesus or YHWH, was the Light of the 1st 3 Days, just as He will be the Light of Heaven, which has No need for the Sun nor Moon to shine in it (Rev. 21). Without Jesus was Not anything made which was made, because Everything Physical (formed or fashioned) was made by the Physical Hands of the Only God, the Only Image, the Only Begotten, of the Invisible Spirit of God. When we get to Heaven, we will truly understand that Jesus is the One God... we've been dealing with from the beginning..... for In Him dwelleth ALL of the fulness of the Godhead, Bodily (physically).

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Therefore, Jesus Christ, the Son, is God .... our FATHER.in Heaven..... contrary to mamre's religious views and assumptions.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I fall into the catagory of non-trinitarian and here's what I believe.

First I believe there are many mighty ones or gods (see Psalm 82), but there exists THE GOD and Father of all who created even the gods. I believe the scriptures tell us that the FATHER is an unseen force or breath, terms which are equivalent to the word spirit who when He reveals Himself in man's habitation, does so in slightly physical form that often looks like a man and is for all intents and purposes an avatar. (God's appearance to Abraham in Genesis 18 is an example). This is THE GOD who is from everlasting to everlasting and is the one who caused all things to come into existence.
THE GOD on frequent occasions sends His special or holy spirit into the realm of man and even allows man use benefit from the usage of His spirit in a special way. When this holy spirit comes upon man it endows man with special abilities beyond that of our normal abilities be it knowledge, power, etc. Charactors throughout the Bible from the judges of Israel, to Daniel, to Jesus from the time of his baptism, and Jesus apostles afterward exemplify this. This spirit would seem to be a force that allows man the ability to do "works of God" and doesn't seem to be a separate individual of any "Godhead."
THE GOD is said to have an "Only Generated/Begotten" Son who is the very image of the invisible GOD. This Son was revealed in the world as Jesus of Nazareth some 2000 years ago. We are told in scripture that this Son existed in some way shape of form prior to this time however. Did He exist in the "mind" of THE GOD as the reason for creation or was He literary the 1st creation who then created everything else? Was he murdered in the heavenly realms by the satan and then sort of reincarnated as Jesus? (Remember the Bible in John 8:44 tells us that the devil was a murderer from the beginning). We simply cannot give unquestionable and 100% accurate answers to these inquiries, but we can know that Jesus did play a role in creation as either the creator or the REASON for it.

Colosians 1

while you thank the Father who qualified you to receive a part of the inheritance of the Holy Ones in the light.
13 He drew us to Himself from out of the power of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of the Son of His love. 14 And the ransom price that frees us from our sins has been paid through him. 15 For, he’s the image of the invisible God and the firstborn of all creation. 16 Through him everything in heaven and on the earth was created, both the things that are visible and those that are invisible. Everything has been created through him and for him, regardless of whether they are thrones, or rulerships, or governments, or powers. 17 He was before everything and everything came into existence through him. 18 He’s the head of the body of the congregation; he’s the beginning and the first one to be born from the dead, so that he would be first in everything.
19 [God] saw that it was good for him to be complete in everything, 20 and used [Jesus] to bring everything back into a good relationship with Himself, by making peace through his blood [that was shed] on the pole, regardless of whether these things are heavenly or earthly.

 

[Who Says]

Jesus is God and was with the Father before the beginning of the Physical World. When God said, Let there be Light, Jesus or YHWH came forth (begotten) from the invisible Spirit of Love into the Physical World and became the Only God ever Physically formed or that ever will be Physically formed. He was Not Created, since He was already God... at the bosom of the Father in the beginning.

Jesus or YHWH, was the Light of the 1st 3 Days, just as He will be the Light of Heaven, which has No need for the Sun nor Moon to shine in it (Rev. 21). Without Jesus was Not anything made which was made, because Everything Physical (formed or fashioned) was made by the Physical Hands of the Only God, the Only Image, the Only Begotten, of the Invisible Spirit of God. When we get to Heaven, we will truly understand that Jesus is the One God... we've been dealing with from the beginning..... for In Him dwelleth ALL of the fulness of the Godhead, Bodily (physically).

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Jesus is LORD

I actually believe you and I agree on more than you realize.

I believe we both see the Father as the source of all things. We both know that nothing comes from nothing, all things come from something. And we both agree that that the "something" that all things must have come from must be God.

The only dispute as I see it may be in that some of us who do not support the Trinitarian view (not even all of us) believe that we see in the scriptures that the Son did have a beginning.

How does a Son not have a beginning? Do you see that Proverbs chapter 8 speaks of the Son? Have you ever examined the original language words of Proverbs 8:22?

Proverbs 8:22 "The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past." (The Bible in Basic English)

The KJV rendering of that passage states, "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old."

The Hebrew word there translated "possessed me" is "qanah". Strong's Hebrew Dictionary tells us: qanah -- pronounced: kaw-naw'
a primitive root; to erect, i.e. create; by extension, to procure, especially by purchase (causatively, sell); by implication to own: KJV -- attain, buy(-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess(-or), purchase, recover, redeem, X surely, X verily.

Are you aware that the only way "qanah" can be translated as "possessed" is with an understood sense of having been first purchased?

This does not in any way berate that Jesus is the highest in power and authority by his Father's will both in the heavens and on this earth.

It does not in any way berate Jesus's position in relation to the Father and to all else.

Jesus himself said, The Father is greater than I."

In a sense we are all of the Father just as Jesus. Our illusion is our seperateness. Because if at the start nothing existed but God, then everything has to be made from or ("ek", "out of") God as the building material. And this is why: Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." (KJV)

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Jesus is God and was with the Father before the beginning of the Physical World. When God said, Let there be Light (Gen. 1:3), Jesus or YHWH came forth (begotten) from the invisible Spirit of Love into the Physical World and became the Only God ever Physically formed or that ever will be Physically formed. He was Not Created, since He was already God... at the bosom of the Father in the beginning.

Jesus or YHWH, was the Light of the 1st 3 Days, just as He will be the Light of Heaven, which has No need for the Sun nor Moon to shine in it (Rev. 21). Without Jesus was Not anything made which was made, because Everything Physical (formed or fashioned) was made by the Physical Hands of the Only God, the Only Image, the Only Begotten, of the Invisible Spirit of God. When we get to Heaven, we will truly understand that Jesus is the One God... we've been dealing with from the beginning..... for In Him dwelleth ALL of the fulness of the Godhead, Bodily (physically).

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Therefore, Jesus Christ, the Son, is God .... our FATHER.in Heaven..... contrary to mamre's religious views and assumptions.

I'll start by quoting an English translation of the Greek LXX, which was likely the text used by Jesus and his contemporaries before trinitarian dogma was ableto influence of our more recent translations render the passage.

To us a child has been born, and a son was given to us, upon whose shoulders the kingship will come. And his name will be called, ‘the Messenger of the Great Understanding; the Wonderful Councilor and Mighty God; the Powerful One and Prince of Peace; and Father of the Age that is Coming.’ Then upon this prince I’ll bring peace and health. 7 His rule from David’s throne will be great, and there’ll be no end to his peace. His kingdom will be established on judgments and justice, both now and into the age, for the zeal of Jehovah of Armies will do this.

This talks about the kingship of the Anointed One that he would receive from God, not about the Anointed One being THE GOD. Not that I support this sight or religion, but here's some good info nonetheless Isaiah 9:6 (No. 224)

Secondly, I see you quoted a snipet from Colossians 2 that says; "for in Him dwellest all the fullness of Godhead bodily." You failed to list the remainder of the text though which goes on to say that the same fullness is in Jesus' saved ones. Here's the text in its broader context:

I’m rejoicing, because I’ve noticed the way that you’ve come into line with and become firm in the Anointed One. 6 So, since you’ve accepted the Anointed Jesus (the Lord), [you must] keep on walking with him. 7 Become rooted and built up in him; and become firm when it comes to faith in the things you were taught… overflow with it whenever you’re giving thanks!
8 Watch out so that no one carries you off as a captive with the philosophies and empty hopes of human traditions, because these base things of the system of things don’t come from the Anointed One; 9 for in him lives all the fullness of the divine body… 10 and you’re also one with him [in this fullness]… and he’s the head of all governments and powers.

Colossians 2 from A Non Ecclesiastical NT

Therefore, as you received Jesus the Anointed Lord, walk in him. Be rooted and constructed in him and be established in trust, just as you were taught, and be abundant in thanksgiving. See to it that no one be preying on you through speculation and empty deceit, which is according to human tradition and according to the elements of creation and not according to the Anointed One. Because all of the fullness of God's nature dwells bodily in him, and in him you are filled.​

 

[mamre]

I disagree with your religious assumption.

4given,
You can disagree with anything you want. You have that freedom. However, what you think is not necessarily what the scripture 1Cor.8:5-6 is clearly saying. To us there is ONLY ONE God to whom everything else belongs and comes from (including Jesus). And we have ONE Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we were all created. Please notice how Paul does't use the word God to describe Jesus (even though He is God since before the creation of the earth). It cannot be more clear than that.

However, know this, when you say you disagree with me in this, in fact you are disagreeing with the scripture 1Cor.8:5-6, because that scripture is EXACTLY what I believe and know. So, in effect you are disagreeing with the Apostle Paul (and with God Himself for He is the One that inspired Paul to write that), not me, I didn't state that scripture, I just believe it.

Again: Please don't take my word for it, ask God to witness to you the truth of that scripture.


Please, read on...

Either you tell us who the Father is... or declare that YHWH, is not God. Only then... you will have a basis of argument. You can NOT have it both ways.

As matter of fact, Yes, I know the name of the Father.
It is in the Bible. Read the Bible you will learn it. Actually Jesus mentions that in the NT when He was on the cross. It is also found in the OT. It is not YHWH, that is His Son Jesus Christ's name before Jesus came to earth. But also yes, it has been revealed to men in modern times too.

The fact is, If you agree, that, it was the Son of God (YHWH) himself - not the invisible God Father - who physically made or formed man from the dust of the ground (Gen.2:7)... based on the Scripture... then, technically the Son is our Father in heaven... not the invisible God himself... the Father of YHWH.... whose name is not yet been revealed to anyone at this time.

Yes, not just technically, we can refer safely to God the Son as our Heavenly Father, that is perfectly appropriate. He (Jesus) is our Father also in other ways.

I already addressed this in my last post, didn't you see it? Here it is again.

Jesus declared emphatically that the Father loved Him because He, the Son seek ONLY to do the Father's will. Since Jesus was God before this earth was, He knows the mind of God PERFECTLY. Therefore, there is nothing that the Son does that is not the mind of God the Father (this is in the scriptures). Their harmony is so perfect that Jesus can speak and act, and be referred to as if He was the Father Himself. Can't you see that? Jesus would do nothing different than the Father (this is in the scriptures). So, everything He does is what the Father does (this is the scriptures too). Since He is doing only the will of the Father He can address us as our Heavenly Father also, as whatever He says or does is the same as if the Father were saying or doing.

But as much as Jesus Has everything the Father has, He, Jesus, is NOT 'physically' the father, that is impossible, because Jesus is His son. He cannot be a son e a father of himself.

That is as true as you not being able to be your physical father. You cannot be your father's son and be your father at the same time. But if you are do everything that your father does, people can see some of your father in you.

We can see ALL of God the Father in the Son and call Him Heavenly Father because He is the express image of the Father.

All this is summarized in the scripture below.
John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me...

So the Father gives everything in the Son's hands. He (Jesus) can do whatever He wants because whatever He wants is to do the will of the Father.

It would be a lack of trust from the Father (not that would happen) if He would bypass the Son. The Son does everything by the power of the Father, as He came from the Father (like everything else). Thus we can see all of the Father in the Son, even though, the Father is behind the scene ("invisible").

John 8
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Now, do you know the name of the invisible FATHER of whom you say he is your God?

I will be waiting for your answer. Thanks

Please see the answer above.

4given
[/quote]

 

[4given]

I actually believe you and I agree on more than you realize.

I believe we both see the Father as the source of all things. We both know that nothing comes from nothing, all things come from something. And we both agree that that the "something" that all things must have come from must be God.

The only dispute as I see it may be in that some of us who do not support the Trinitarian view (not even all of us) believe that we see in the scriptures that the Son did have a beginning.

How does a Son not have a beginning? Do you see that Proverbs chapter 8 speaks of the Son? Have you ever examined the original language words of Proverbs 8:22?

Proverbs 8:22 "The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past." (The Bible in Basic English)

The KJV rendering of that passage states, "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old."

The Hebrew word there translated "possessed me" is "qanah". Strong's Hebrew Dictionary tells us: qanah -- pronounced: kaw-naw'
a primitive root; to erect, i.e. create; by extension, to procure, especially by purchase (causatively, sell); by implication to own: KJV -- attain, buy(-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess(-or), purchase, recover, redeem, X surely, X verily.

Are you aware that the only way "qanah" can be translated as "possessed" is with an understood sense of having been first purchased?

This does not in any way berate that Jesus is the highest in power and authority by his Father's will both in the heavens and on this earth.

It does not in any way berate Jesus's position in relation to the Father and to all else.

Jesus himself said, The Father is greater than I."

In a sense we are all of the Father just as Jesus. Our illusion is our seperateness. Because if at the start nothing existed but God, then everything has to be made from or ("ek", "out of") God as the building material. And this is why: Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." (KJV)

First of all, I am not saying that the YHWH is equal to his invisible Father who is greater than He. And I have no problem with that. However, the Son is the only one I know... to be my Lord, my saviour and my God.

I am also glad that we have many common understanding of the Scripture as you said.

However, you failed to mention that in your cited text (Prov. 8:22) ... the meaning or the usage of the word "possessed" in that context actually means it... originated from God .... from the BEGINNING (of physical world) from EVARLASTING (eternity)!

Here's the complete meaning or usage of the word "possessed"... depending on the context of the text.
1) to get, acquire, create, buy, possess
a) (Qal)
1) to get, acquire, obtain
a) of God originating, creating, redeeming His people
1) possessor
b) of Eve acquiring
c) of acquiring knowledge, wisdom
2) to buy
b) (Niphal) to be bought
c) (Hiphil) to cause to possess

And if you read more closely the entire context of the texts (Proverbs 8:22-36), you will see that the Son was BROUGHT FORTH (begotten) into this physical world from the invisible realm of the Father... in the beginning... before the world was.

Proverns 8
v22 The LORD POSSESSED me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. v23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. v24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Therefore, in summary, the Son of God is before the beginning of this physical world... originating from the beginning; from everlasting - from the bosom of the Father.



Thanks

 

[Who Says]

First of all, I am not saying that the YHWH is equal to his invisible Father who is greater than He. And I have no problem with that. However, the Son is the only one I know... to be my Lord, my saviour and my God.

I am also glad that we have many common understanding of the Scripture as you said.

However, you failed to mention that in your cited text (Prov. 8:22) ... the meaning or the usage of the word "possessed" in that context actually means it... originated from God .... from the BEGINNING (of physical world) from EVARLASTING (eternity)!

Here's the complete meaning or usage of the word "possessed"... depending on the context of the text.
1) to get, acquire, create, buy, possess
a) (Qal)
1) to get, acquire, obtain
a) of God originating, creating, redeeming His people
1) possessor
b) of Eve acquiring
c) of acquiring knowledge, wisdom
2) to buy
b) (Niphal) to be bought
c) (Hiphil) to cause to possess

And if you read more closely the entire context of the texts (Proverbs 8:22-36), you will see that the Son was BROUGHT FORTH (begotten) into this physical world from the invisible realm of the Father... in the beginning... before the world was.

Proverns 8
v22 The LORD POSSESSED me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. v23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. v24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Therefore, in summary, the Son of God is before the beginning of this physical world... originating from the beginning; from everlasting - from the bosom of the Father.



Thanks

That is very good so far.

Now let us look at the word "everlasting" in Proverbs 8:23

`owlam -- pronounced: o-lawm' or `olam o-lawm'
from 5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always: KJV -- alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(- lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). (Strong's Hebrew Dictionary)

Can you discern in your own evaluation of that word that we would better tranlatste it as the point when time began? In other words the Son was the mark of the beginning of time as it relates to God?

Ponder that.

`owlam does not mean "everlasting" in an absolute sense.

 

[Drew]

Paul makes this extremely clear, just read the scripture without the eyes of interpretation and you will see:

1Cor.8:5-6

For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Breaking that down:

One God, the Father - We are commanded to worship One God, the Father.

of whom are all things - Everything comes and belongs to God the Father, including Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Ghost.

One Lord, Jesus Christ - This God the Son, however, notice how Paul do use the word God for Jesus here on purpose.

I disagree with your take on what Paul is saying. Please read the following argument and comment.

Consider this text from 1 Corinthians 8:

Therefore concerning the eating of (H)things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

I will argue that this text demonstrates that Paul believes that Jesus shares divinity with God the Father and is also a distinct "person". This argument has two essential elements: (1) that Jewish monotheism was never an inner analysis of the nature of “God†(i.e. an analysis of the possibility, or lack thereof, of multiple “persons†within “Godâ€) but was rather a polemic against pagan gods; and (2) that Paul clearly stitches Jesus into the Shema, the most central of Jewish declarations about God, and does so in a manner that requires us to see Jesus a separate "person" but still in entirely "God".

Pre-conceptions are so difficult to shake. Many who come to the Trinity debate do so in a state of relative ignorance about what the Bible (and other historical sources) tell us about the nature of the Jewish Old Testament claim that there is only “one godâ€. Almost everyone, including many people who affirm the Trinity, think that this is a claim that there can be no “inner multiplicity of persons†within the Godhead. And I am not sure how Trinitarians who believe this accommodate such a position with their view that there are in fact, three persons in the Godhead.

However, this is simply not what the Jew is saying when s/he claims that there is only one God. What the Bible (and history) tells us, instead, is that this “God is one†claim is essentially a battle-cry against pagans – by declaring “our God is oneâ€, the Jew is really saying that the gods of the pagans are worthless idols. So the declaration “our God is one†is really directed outward at the pagans their gods, it is not an inward-looking analysis of the nature of Israel’s God.

And Paul clearly has precisely this outward-looking view. In the text from 1 Corinthians, Paul quotes a number of Old Testament passages, including the famous shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 (Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!), and sets the “God is one†claim right in the middle of a critique of pagan gods. In doing so, he is doing precisely what is done in the Old Testament. When Paul asserts the “oneness†of Israel’s God, he is not talking about the inner nature of the Godhead – he is plugging into to the running Jewish polemic against pagan gods. And as will be demonstrated next, it is clear that Paul is, in fact, making the argument that, indeed, there is multiplicity in the Godhead.

Here again, is the famous shema text which Paul alludes to in the 1 Corinthians text and which would be well known to any Jew:

Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

Now not what Paul does with this – he says this:

there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ

Note how in the shema the terms “Lord†and “God†are both terms used to refer to the “oneâ€. And yet Paul has teased these two descriptors apart, applying the latter to “the Father†and the former to Jesus. Do you see what Paul is doing – he is taking the quintessential Jewish expression of the oneness of Israel’s God and he is identifying multiple persons with that expression. How much clearer can Paul possibly be - Jesus is to be understood as part and parcel of that which is referred to when the Jew declares “the Lord our God is oneâ€. Therefore, we cannot read Paul as doing anything other than declaring that the Old Testament "God that is one" is comprised of two distinct persons.

Paul is no dummy - he knows the Shema and is clearly opening up that concept and identifying a "Father" and a "Lord" within that.

 

[4given]

Do you know who the FATHER is.... of whom ye say he is your God?

3rd Request.

As matter of fact, Yes, I know the name of the Father.
It is in the Bible. Read the Bible you will learn it. Actually Jesus mentions that in the NT when He was on the cross. It is also found in the OT. It is not YHWH, that is His Son Jesus Christ's name before Jesus came to earth. But also yes, it has been revealed to men in modern times too.

LOL…:biglol ...... For the nth times… why not you tell us and post the real name (not title) of the God Father..... of whom ye say he is your God.... on this thread... in order for me to quote you properly…

I am still all ears.

 

[Who Says]

I disagree with your take on what Paul is saying. Please read the following argument and comment.

Consider this text from 1 Corinthians 8:

Therefore concerning the eating of (H)things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

I will argue that this text demonstrates that Paul believes that Jesus shares divinity with God the Father and is also a distinct "person". This argument has two essential elements: (1) that Jewish monotheism was never an inner analysis of the nature of “God” (i.e. an analysis of the possibility, or lack thereof, of multiple “persons” within “God”) but was rather a polemic against pagan gods; and (2) that Paul clearly stitches Jesus into the Shema, the most central of Jewish declarations about God, and does so in a manner that requires us to see Jesus a separate "person" but still in entirely "God".

Pre-conceptions are so difficult to shake. Many who come to the Trinity debate do so in a state of relative ignorance about what the Bible (and other historical sources) tell us about the nature of the Jewish Old Testament claim that there is only “one god”. Almost everyone, including many people who affirm the Trinity, think that this is a claim that there can be no “inner multiplicity of persons” within the Godhead. And I am not sure how Trinitarians who believe this accommodate such a position with their view that there are in fact, three persons in the Godhead.

However, this is simply not what the Jew is saying when s/he claims that there is only one God. What the Bible (and history) tells us, instead, is that this “God is one” claim is essentially a battle-cry against pagans – by declaring “our God is one”, the Jew is really saying that the gods of the pagans are worthless idols. So the declaration “our God is one” is really directed outward at the pagans their gods, it is not an inward-looking analysis of the nature of Israel’s God.

And Paul clearly has precisely this outward-looking view. In the text from 1 Corinthians, Paul quotes a number of Old Testament passages, including the famous shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 (Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!), and sets the “God is one” claim right in the middle of a critique of pagan gods. In doing so, he is doing precisely what is done in the Old Testament. When Paul asserts the “oneness” of Israel’s God, he is not talking about the inner nature of the Godhead – he is plugging into to the running Jewish polemic against pagan gods. And as will be demonstrated next, it is clear that Paul is, in fact, making the argument that, indeed, there is multiplicity in the Godhead.

Here again, is the famous shema text which Paul alludes to in the 1 Corinthians text and which would be well known to any Jew:

Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

Now not what Paul does with this – he says this:

there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ

Note how in the shema the terms “Lord” and “God” are both terms used to refer to the “one”. And yet Paul has teased these two descriptors apart, applying the latter to “the Father” and the former to Jesus. Do you see what Paul is doing – he is taking the quintessential Jewish expression of the oneness of Israel’s God and he is identifying multiple persons with that expression. How much clearer can Paul possibly be - Jesus is to be understood as part and parcel of that which is referred to when the Jew declares “the Lord our God is one”. Therefore, we cannot read Paul as doing anything other than declaring that the Old Testament "God that is one" is comprised of two distinct persons.

Paul is no dummy - he knows the Shema and is clearly opening up that concept and identifying a "Father" and a "Lord" within that.

Paul knows what I highlighted in posts 161 and 165. These numbers changed recently for some reason. They were 160 and 164.

Our illusion is our seperateness. Because if at the start nothing existed but God, then everything has to be made from or ("ek", "out of") God as the building material. And this is why: Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." (KJV)

When we tie this into 1 Corinthians 8:6 as I described in post 160 we see that we are all in the Father as is the Son, we being born as sons to the Son and all of us are the Father's offspring as is the Son, only we in and through the Son.

Our illusion is the seperateness of anyone, including the imagined seperateness of the Father and the Son. The seperateness that exists, only exists in that we were seperated by sin.

So to a large degree we end up arguing over different angles of view of the same diamond.

 

[4given]

Can you discern in your own evaluation of that word that we would better tranlatste it as the point when time began? In other words the Son was the mark of the beginning of time as it relates to God?

Ponder that.

`owlam does not mean "everlasting" in an absolute sense.

Ok then, read and learn...

Of course not. The brightness of the glory of the Son that shinneth in the beginning of creation (Gen.1:3) was the mark of the beginning of time as it relates to the making of our physical world.

God's time is eternal and has no beginning nor end.... while man's time is temporal and will cease to exist when this world is burned.

Next time, do not combine apples and oranges... spiritual and physical....

Nice try but no cigar...

 

[Drew]

Paul knows what I highlighted in posts 160 and 164.

Our illusion is our seperateness. Because if at the start nothing existed but God, then everything has to be made from or ("ek", "out of") God as the building material. And this is why: Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." (KJV)

When we tie this into 1 Corinthians 8:6 as I described in post 160 we see that we are all in the Father as is the Son, we being born as sons to the Son and all of us are the Father's offspring as is the Son, only we in and through the Son.

Our illusion is the seperateness of anyone, including the imagined seperateness of the Father and the Son. The seperateness that exists, only exists in that we were seperated by sin.

So to a large degree we end up arguing over different angles of view of the same diamond.

You are not dealing with my argument - pointing me to two arguments of your own that do not connect to my argument does not constitute dealing with my argument. That said, this cuts both ways - I need to deal with your arguments as well.

 

[mamre]

I disagree with your take on what Paul is saying. Please read the following argument and comment.

Consider this text from 1 Corinthians 8:

Therefore concerning the eating of (H)things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

I will argue that this text demonstrates that Paul believes that Jesus shares divinity with God the Father and is also a distinct "person". This argument has two essential elements: (1) that Jewish monotheism was never an inner analysis of the nature of “God†(i.e. an analysis of the possibility, or lack thereof, of multiple “persons†within “Godâ€) but was rather a polemic against pagan gods; and (2) that Paul clearly stitches Jesus into the Shema, the most central of Jewish declarations about God, and does so in a manner that requires us to see Jesus a separate "person" but still in entirely "God".

Pre-conceptions are so difficult to shake. Many who come to the Trinity debate do so in a state of relative ignorance about what the Bible (and other historical sources) tell us about the nature of the Jewish Old Testament claim that there is only “one godâ€. Almost everyone, including many people who affirm the Trinity, think that this is a claim that there can be no “inner multiplicity of persons†within the Godhead. And I am not sure how Trinitarians who believe this accommodate such a position with their view that there are in fact, three persons in the Godhead.

However, this is simply not what the Jew is saying when s/he claims that there is only one God. What the Bible (and history) tells us, instead, is that this “God is one†claim is essentially a battle-cry against pagans – by declaring “our God is oneâ€, the Jew is really saying that the gods of the pagans are worthless idols. So the declaration “our God is one†is really directed outward at the pagans their gods, it is not an inward-looking analysis of the nature of Israel’s God.

And Paul clearly has precisely this outward-looking view. In the text from 1 Corinthians, Paul quotes a number of Old Testament passages, including the famous shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 (Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!), and sets the “God is one†claim right in the middle of a critique of pagan gods. In doing so, he is doing precisely what is done in the Old Testament. When Paul asserts the “oneness†of Israel’s God, he is not talking about the inner nature of the Godhead – he is plugging into to the running Jewish polemic against pagan gods. And as will be demonstrated next, it is clear that Paul is, in fact, making the argument that, indeed, there is multiplicity in the Godhead.

Here again, is the famous shema text which Paul alludes to in the 1 Corinthians text and which would be well known to any Jew:

Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

Now not what Paul does with this – he says this:

there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ

Note how in the shema the terms “Lord†and “God†are both terms used to refer to the “oneâ€. And yet Paul has teased these two descriptors apart, applying the latter to “the Father†and the former to Jesus. Do you see what Paul is doing – he is taking the quintessential Jewish expression of the oneness of Israel’s God and he is identifying multiple persons with that expression. How much clearer can Paul possibly be - Jesus is to be understood as part and parcel of that which is referred to when the Jew declares “the Lord our God is oneâ€. Therefore, we cannot read Paul as doing anything other than declaring that the Old Testament "God that is one" is comprised of two distinct persons.

Paul is no dummy - he knows the Shema and is clearly opening up that concept and identifying a "Father" and a "Lord" within that.

Drew,

First and foremost, I NEVER said that Jesus is not divine. Jesus GOD the SON. He is coequal with God the Father, but He is NOT the Father. The Father gave Him the power He has (it is in the scriptures).

"Paul is not dummy" - This translates to as if you are trying enter Paul's mind. This indicates unequivocally that you are trying to use the scriptures to suit your interpretation thereof. Paul is gone a long time ago, all we have is his writings, if you say something like that it means you are making an analysis of what he said. Therefore they are only your conjectures (read interpretation).

Hence, the need you have to try to reconcile your preferred scriptures which your presented in this post with 1Cor.8:5-6. Since the scriptures you presented seem to agree with your analysis, then you decided that 1Cor.8:5-6 needs some explanation. However, it is so clear, that there is no need of explanation. You either believe in it or not.

As I have stated before, I am not having a take on anything, I simply believe wholeheartedly the scripture 1Cor.8:5-6 as it is stated in the Bible. I am not interpreting it. I believe it EXACTLY as it is stated. No take, no interpretations. I believe it word by word. Since it is so clear it doesn't need interpretation, any other scripture of necessity must agree with it. If they don't, either the Bible is contradictory or you are interpreting it in your own way.

So, if someone asked me what is my understanding of the Godhead, I would quote 1Cor.8:5-6 word by word, no change, no explanation, no interpretation. Not my words.

If you don't have a witness of this scripture all you need to do is to ask Father in Heaven sincerely. I give you my testimony that He will answer and reveal the truth of it to you. He did to me.

have a good one,
mamre

 

[JudaicChristian]

I do not know if I should laugh or cry. I see this thread is out of control. You guys have your fun, I will go and do something else. Bye:waving

 

[mamre]

LOL…:biglol ...... For the nth times… why not you tell us and post the real name (not title) of the God Father..... of whom ye say he is your God.... on this thread... in order for me to quote you properly…

I am still all ears.

It appears you are dismissing all my explanation in the last post and concentrating in something that is not really relevant to know that we should worship the Only One God, the Father, in the name of the Son, in the spirit.

But I will not tell you the name of the Father, because, even if I give you a scripture that cannot be interpreted and clear as a sunny day. Even if an Angel would come down sent from God to tell you, you would not believe it. You will always have an escape, an interpretation for it. Ears to hear that cannot hear, apparently.

So I will not tell you the name of the Father. If you really wanted to know, you would accept my invitation and pray to God sincerely and with real intent to find out. But you seem to think you already know all the answers. So I will only tell you that Jesus said it. And if you read the Old Testament with attention and the spirit of the Lord, sincerely, you will find it. It is there.

What I have written in my posts is the truth, not because I am saying or that I think I am correct. I am nothing, really. But, I know it is the truth because I have a direct witness from our Father which is in Heaven. It is simple as the snake on the stick. So simple that for some is very hard to accept it. Ask Father in Heaven you will know if 1Cor.8:5-6 is the truth as it is written or not.

If you know the Son you know the Father. But, I assure you that I know the name of the Father. I would not lie, I don't need to. If I told you I really don't think you'd believe it, as you have you mind already set.

Neither I need to win any arguments. I am simply giving you my testimony of these truths. You can accept my invitation and go to the Father an find out for yourself, or you can continue to speculate, never getting to true knowledge. It will be always your opinion.

On a another point. I am confused, I saw another post of yours that you say that Jesus had a beginning. Are you meaning to say that God the Father have begotten the Son in spirit way before this earth was? I like that scripture in Prov 8 very much, it is enlightening.

Have a good one,
mamre

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I fall into the catagory of non-trinitarian and here's what I believe.

First I believe there are many mighty ones or gods (see Psalm 82), but there exists THE GOD and Father of all who created even the gods. I believe the scriptures tell us that the FATHER is an unseen force or breath, terms which are equivalent to the word spirit who when He reveals Himself in man's habitation, does so in slightly physical form that often looks like a man and is for all intents and purposes an avatar. (God's appearance to Abraham in Genesis 18 is an example). This is THE GOD who is from everlasting to everlasting and is the one who caused all things to come into existence.
THE GOD on frequent occasions sends His special or holy spirit into the realm of man and even allows man use benefit from the usage of His spirit in a special way. When this holy spirit comes upon man it endows man with special abilities beyond that of our normal abilities be it knowledge, power, etc. Charactors throughout the Bible from the judges of Israel, to Daniel, to Jesus from the time of his baptism, and Jesus apostles afterward exemplify this. This spirit would seem to be a force that allows man the ability to do "works of God" and doesn't seem to be a separate individual of any "Godhead."
THE GOD is said to have an "Only Generated/Begotten" Son who is the very image of the invisible GOD. This Son was revealed in the world as Jesus of Nazareth some 2000 years ago. We are told in scripture that this Son existed in some way shape of form prior to this time however. Did He exist in the "mind" of THE GOD as the reason for creation or was He literary the 1st creation who then created everything else? Was he murdered in the heavenly realms by the satan and then sort of reincarnated as Jesus? (Remember the Bible in John 8:44 tells us that the devil was a murderer from the beginning). We simply cannot give unquestionable and 100% accurate answers to these inquiries, but we can know that Jesus did play a role in creation as either the creator or the REASON for it.

Where does the sentiment that Jesus is somehow equal to the Father come from? Throught the narrative of scripture both in person, in prophecy, as well as post ascension, Jesus seems to be in a subordinate role/relationship to the Father. The Father, at least based on the picture the scriptures paint is Jesus' God!

 

[Who Says]

Ok then, read and learn...

Of course not. The brightness of the glory of the Son that shinneth in the beginning of creation (Gen.1:3) was the mark of the beginning of time as it relates to the making of our physical world.

God's time is eternal and has no beginning nor end.... while man's time is temporal and will cease to exist when this world is burned.

Next time, do not combine apples and oranges... spiritual and physical....

Nice try but no cigar...

Hebrews 1:3 is specifically relating to the Son's "being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power" At THE TIME THAT "he had by himself purged our sins" and then afterward "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high".

It is speaking about Jesus in the flesh.

And that is what John also told us: John 1:8 "He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made ("dia" literally "through") him, and the world knew him not." (KJV)

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Someone could mistakenly argue that when God said, "Let there come to be light" God had then made Jesus. That would however be stretching the scriptures rather than letting the scriptures unfold themselves to us. Jesus was in existence long before any physical creation, even long before the angels.

Jesus is "the beginning of God's works" or in other words the beginning of all created things. Proverbs 8:22 "The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past." (BBE)

The man Jesus was in the flesh (Colossians 1:15 KJV) "the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature".

And in Hebrews chapter one Paul is also describing who Jesus was in the flesh.

It was while in the flesh that (Hebrews 1:1 KJV) "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers [in the flesh] by the prophets [in the flesh],
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us [in the flesh] by his Son [in the flesh], whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

And as men had corrupted their own image and the glory they bear of God (Romans 1:22-23 comparing 1 Corinthians 11:7) ...

... Jesus thus came in the flesh to show us (Hebrews 1:3a KJV) "the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person" that we ought to also ourselves be if not for sin.

Our loyalty ought also like Christ's "upholding all things by the word of the Father's power", and we ought to cooperate with the purpose of Christ's purging of our sins, and like Christ who said, (John 17:19 KJV) "for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth", so also ought we to do.

In the book of Hebrews Paul is in no way concerned with trying to show that Christ is God. Paul is helping his Hebrew Christian brothers to equip themselves to explain how it was that Christ was the foretold Messiah in the flesh and to show how Christ assumed the thrown of David their flesh and blood father as well as became their true high priest between they and God in fulfillment of that Old Covenant.

Hebrews 1:5 "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" (KJV)

The answer to Paul's question at Hebrews 1: 5 is that God did not say it to an angel but to a man: Matthew 3:17 "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Luke 1:32 "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:"

When Hebrews 1:9 says, "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." In this case "thy fellows" are the fleshly men who sat on God's thrown previous to Jesus. Jesus became exalted above them all.

Trying to milk Hebrews chapter one for support of the Trinity literally destroys Paul's theme in not just that chapter but in Paul's entire letter to the Hebrews.

 

[warhorse]

Where does the sentiment that Jesus is somehow equal to the Father come from? Throught the narrative of scripture both in person, in prophecy, as well as post ascension, Jesus seems to be in a subordinate role/relationship to the Father. The Father, at least based on the picture the scriptures paint is Jesus' God!

Phillipians 2v 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: