Trinitarians - answer this

[mutzrein]

1 Corinthians 15 contains an interesting passage of scripture. I'm particularly interested in verse 27 but I have included the surrounding verses to put it into context.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

So, Trinitarians tell me pray, what does V27 say?

 

[Novum]

Can't we all just get along? :roll:

 

[mutzrein]

Can't we all just get along? :roll:

Actually, no - not all of us . . . but I could probably get along better with you than some of these religious trinitarians :wink:

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

27 For he "has put everything under his feet."

Yes, the Father glorifies the Son by putting all things under His feet.

Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

The Church does not teach that God is underneath Jesus.

28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all

Indeed. Jesus the, Word made flesh, in His humanity must be subject to the Father (See Philippians 2:5-7 ). If He (In His humanity, for He was fully human) did not He would then be sinful.

 

[mutzrein]

+JMJ+

27 For he "has put everything under his feet."

Yes, the Father glorifies the Son by putting all things under His feet.

[quote:c1d6e]Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

The Church does not teach that God is underneath Jesus.

28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all

Indeed. Jesus the, Word made flesh, in His humanity must be subject to the Father (See Philippians 2:5-7 ). If He (In His humanity, for He was fully human) did not He would then be sinful.[/quote:c1d6e]

FSW - You miss the point. Scripture, from beginning to end makes a distinction between Jesus (who is the son & Word of God) and the Father (who is God). So if the father (God) puts everything under the son's (Jesus) feet (except himself) then there is a clear distinction in terms of position, authority and relationship between Jesus and God. It is the Father who places all things under the Son. The father IS God and Jesus IS the son.

You cannot have God putting all things under himself except himself. But this is the logic of trinitarians so I guess I am not suprised that they try.

And by the way, this has got nothing to do with Jesus' humanity. Jesus was, is and always will be subject to God, his Father.

 

[Klee shay]

And by the way, this has got nothing to do with Jesus' humanity. Jesus was, is and always will be subject to God, his Father.

And this is why when God resurrected Jesus, he was raised to the right-hand side of God. Meaning Jesus was his #1 but God was still in command. :wink:

 

[Solo]

Jehovah says that he is the First and Last, the King of Israel, redeemer, the Jehovah of hosts; and besides Him there is no God. Jehovah tells Jacob and Israel His called that He is the I am; He declares that he is the first and the last.

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Isaiah 48:12

Who does John see in heaven that claims to be the first and the last?

Jesus Christ.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; Revelation 1:17

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; Revelation 2:8

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. Revelation 22:12-16

Jesus is Jehovah, God almighty, Redeemer, the First and the Last.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

FSW - You miss the point. Scripture, from beginning to end makes a distinction between Jesus (who is the son & Word of God) and the Father (who is God).

Agreed.

So if the father (God) puts everything under the son's (Jesus) feet (except himself)

Agreed.

then there is a clear distinction in terms of position, authority and relationship between Jesus and God.

(Except for the authority part) Agreed.

It is the Father who places all things under the Son. The father IS God and Jesus IS the son.

Yes, Jesus is indeed the Son of God. But what does this mean? It means that Jesus was begotten of God. 'Beget' does not mean create. It means to bring forth from one's self (Like word). If Jesus was begotten directly of the Father, how could he be just a man?

I've thought about what you have said about the 'Word'. But, to me, it is only another argument for the Divinity of Christ.

If I speak, my words are temporal. They are apart of me and are me yet are distinct from me. I did not, however, create my words. My words are brought forth from me.

God's Word, however, is an Eternal Word. Although God is distinct from His Word, the Word is still God. This Word of God, since it came directly from God, must be an Eternal Word. If this Word is eternal, distinct, and the Word became flesh, what else are we to belive, except that Jesus is the Word, and the Word was God and the Word became flesh.

What does sonship mean? It is certain that your and my sonship to God are not the same as Jesus' sonship to God. You and I were created. Jesus was begotten.

 

[ChristineES]

I am not picking on this particular thread, it was just the one I chose to say this. But this back and forth bickering about Trinity-no Trinity is getting annoying. There are several of these threads on this board. Can't we have just ONE thread to discuss this?

 

[Vic C.]

Yes, Jesus is indeed the Son of God. But what does this mean? It means that Jesus was begotten of God. 'Beget' does not mean create. It means to bring forth from one's self (Like word). If Jesus was begotten directly of the Father, how could he be just a man?

I agree FSW. I blame this somewhat on some newer translations. KJ, YLT and LITV, the last two being literal, say begotten:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (LITV)

for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)

God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die. (CEV)

For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. (HCSB)

:o

 

[Solo]

I am not picking on this particular thread, it was just the one I chose to say this. But this back and forth bickering about Trinity-no Trinity is getting annoying. There are several of these threads on this board. Can't we have just ONE thread to discuss this?

You seem to be unable to answer the question posed, and instead complain unnecessarily about the Trinity posts. If you don't mind, who is the First and the Last? Thanks, dear one.

 

[R7-12]

You seem to be unable to answer the question posed, and instead complain unnecessarily ... If you don't mind ... Thanks, dear one.

Really.

Solo, you are unable to answer Question 1 posed on the thread titled, "Impossible Questions for Trinitarians".

Instead you complain about other people's position before God Almighty in Christ's name, which you have no business doing according to Scripture (Romans 14:4).

You would do well to take you own advice and answer the question. However, if you are unable to, which you have thus far exhibited, then please refrain from accusing others.

All accusations, accusers and sinners will be dealt with according to the law and commandments of the Most High God. "Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good" (Romans 7:12, NKJV). :wink:

R7-12

 

[John the Baptist]

Yes, Jesus is indeed the Son of God. But what does this mean? It means that Jesus was begotten of God. 'Beget' does not mean create. It means to bring forth from one's self (Like word). If Jesus was begotten directly of the Father, how could he be just a man?

I agree FSW. I blame this somewhat on some newer translations. KJ, YLT and LITV, the last two being literal, say begotten:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (LITV)

for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)

God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die. (CEV)

For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. (HCSB)

:o

*****

Well, it seems that we need to know when Christ became the Son of the Godhead, huh? Psalm 2:7 Remember, we are talking of their 'eternal' plan! Hebrews 1:5 :wink: And Romans 4:17's last part of the verse sheds some light perhaps?

---John

 

[ChristineES]

I am not picking on this particular thread, it was just the one I chose to say this. But this back and forth bickering about Trinity-no Trinity is getting annoying. There are several of these threads on this board. Can't we have just ONE thread to discuss this?

You seem to be unable to answer the question posed, and instead complain unnecessarily about the Trinity posts. If you don't mind, who is the First and the Last? Thanks, dear one.

I have answered them enough to know that any answer I give will not be the right one for you guys. Trust me, I have tried. I could tell someone something but I can't make them listen to my answer. I am done with this argument for good. Just one more quote:
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one!
I checked this verse with several translations, and it says the same in them all.
He said that, and that is why they killed Him. They believed it was blasphemy.

 

[Imagican]

Something that I haven't seen expounded upon. God, the Father, and Christ the son. This would make a family of sorts. This would certainly allow Christ to claim that He and the Father were ONE. One in the respect of Each being a 'piece' of the other. A 'piece' of God becoming Christ, and a piece of Christ being 'of' the Father.

Obviously they 'are NOT the 'same' and even 'trins' don't offer that. The 'three distinct 'persons' would be completely distroyed if this verse were to be 'taken literally'. For If Christ and the Father ARE one, (the same), then there is NO 'third person' any longer. IF they ARE ONE, then that would leave ONLY the Holy Spirit as a 'separate person'. That would make a 'twinity', (hehehe), sounds kinda like Tweety saying 'trinity', huh? Just a little 'triune' humor.

So, obviously, even if those that deny 'trinity' do NOT have the exact understanding of this verse, those that do would be hard pressed to place it within a 'triune' nature themselves.

 

[ChristineES]

Imagincan, that is the kind of answer I was expecting. :-D

 

[Solo]

So who is the First and the Last?

 

[Imagican]

I would say that God is the Ultimate 'First and Last'. And, that Christ is the 'First and Last' concerning humanity. For God stated that He was THE First and Last, As Christ offered this He referred to Abraham stating that 'before Abraham, I AM. Get it, Abraham WAS a 'man'. And to further illustrate this: Christ 'BEING' the Son, would make God HIS 'First and Last' JUST as God IS HIS God also.

 

[John the Baptist]

I would say that God is the Ultimate 'First and Last'. And, that Christ is the 'First and Last' concerning humanity. For God stated that He was THE First and Last, As Christ offered this He referred to Abraham stating that 'before Abraham, I AM. Get it, Abraham WAS a 'man'. And to further illustrate this: Christ 'BEING' the Son, would make God HIS 'First and Last' JUST as God IS HIS God also.

*****
??? Naw, [you are] a man (?) asking the question!
The Word of God states it as FACT as the Everlasting GOSPEL, and the Everlasting Covenant Neither could be, if the Godhead were not all immortal! 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 Timothy 6:14-16, Hebrews 1:8-9.

--John

 

[R7-12]

So who is the First and the Last?

"First" denotes beginning. It also infers others yet to be revealed as elohim which we will become as the first fruits of God and of which Christ is the first (1 Corinthians 15:23, James 1:18, John 10;34).

Consider Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 along with Revelation 1:18, Revelation 21:6, Revelation 22:13 and especially Revelation 3:14 in the NKJV.

The Most High God does not have a beginning and is not subject to time as is all of His creation.

Jesus Christ is the beginning of the creation of God and has become the firstborn elohim (Gk. monogenes theos) of creation from his resurrection in power (Romans 1:4, Revelation 3:14 NKJV, Colossians 1:15 NKJV, John 1:18 NASB). Jesus is also the monogenes para patra from John 1:14.

The written word is undeniable except for those who will not and therefore cannot hear and thus cannot see. these are those who will weep and nash their teeth Luke 13:28).

We ought to obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29, NKJV).

R7-12