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Trinitarians - answer this

I agree with R7,

God does not have beginning and ending. Jesus is the beginning and the ending.
 
+JMJ+

"First" denotes beginning
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Not necesarily. 'First' doesn't imply beginning, it implies that it was before all else was.

So, to say God is the 'First and the Last' (As Scripture states) would imply that God is before all things and the end to all things.

God is the First: He was before all things.

God is the Last: He is the end to all that is.
 
+JMJ+


As usual, I don't agree with catholic's interpretation.
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You would rather go with your personal interpretation?
 
“First†denotes a position of order. This requires others of like to which the “first†holds this position in comparison.

God Almighty does not have a beginning thus he would not refer to Himself as the “first†but rather, as always having been. As mentioned earlier, being the “first†infers others of like which are yet to follow. This does not apply to the immortal God but it does apply to the first of firstfuits – Messiah who is the prototokos or firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15).

If you would like to begin a friendly discussion of all the texts in the entire Bible that clearly state Christ is a particular created being and the first of his kind under the plan of his Father, just let me know.

BTW, you did not address any of the texts given in support of the previous post.

R7-12
 
*****

Well, it seems that we need to know when Christ became the Son of the Godhead, huh? Psalm 2:7 Remember, we are talking of their 'eternal' plan! Hebrews 1:5 And Romans 4:17's last part of the verse sheds some light perhaps?

---John
_________________

Has any one narrowed this down??

Personally, for me, I would need to know who Stephen speaks of in Acts 7:38. "This is He that was in the church in the wilderness.." Christ as the Son of God, had only been prophesied to become the Son of God in the O.T..

Who was in the Cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night? Christ was not God/man yet!

And in Proverbs 8:22 on, we see that Christ as a Son of God was the future planed blueprint of the Godhead having an Everlasting Gospel [PLAN], for when They well knew in ETERNITY that it would be needed! Unless you think that before Lucifer was created, that these three did not know that the plan would be needed?? :roll:!

Do you believe that the Son of God was playing in the streets before Christ became God/man & in the '.. in the habitable parts of His earth; and my delights were with the sons of men."? :roll: Proverbs 8:30-31

And Proverbs 8:22-26? When one reads these passages, they should detect an Eternal [PLAN] called the 'Everlasting Gospel' :fadein: Revelation 14:6.

---John
 
Imagican said:
I would say that God is the Ultimate 'First and Last'. And, that Christ is the 'First and Last' concerning humanity. For God stated that He was THE First and Last, As Christ offered this He referred to Abraham stating that 'before Abraham, I AM. Get it, Abraham WAS a 'man'. And to further illustrate this: Christ 'BEING' the Son, would make God HIS 'First and Last' JUST as God IS HIS God also.
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Was Jesus a man before Abraham was a man?

Who was Jesus before he was a man?

Why does Jehovah say that he is the First and the Last and beside him there is no other First and Last?

Is Jesus God or Man in heaven?
 
Solo said:
Imagican said:
I would say that God is the Ultimate 'First and Last'. And, that Christ is the 'First and Last' concerning humanity. For God stated that He was THE First and Last, As Christ offered this He referred to Abraham stating that 'before Abraham, I AM. Get it, Abraham WAS a 'man'. And to further illustrate this: Christ 'BEING' the Son, would make God HIS 'First and Last' JUST as God IS HIS God also.
Click to expand...
Was Jesus a man before Abraham was a man?

Who was Jesus before he was a man?

Why does Jehovah say that he is the First and the Last and beside him there is no other First and Last?

Is Jesus God or Man in heaven?
Click to expand...

"Jesus" didn't exist 'before' he was a man. Christ existed as the Son in heaven 'before' the creation of man. Christ, the Son of God, became a man when we are told that He did; a little over two thousand years ago.

Jesus was Christ before He became Jesus.

Since Christ's body did NOT decay, I would say that He is probably both. A "part" OF God and a 'part of man'. He is the Son of God AND the Son of man. And this doesn't really offer anything to 'add to' or 'take away' from that which matters. What does matter is that we worship God AS God and Christ AS the Son of God, our Savior.
 
John the Baptist said:
Imagican said:
I would say that God is the Ultimate 'First and Last'. And, that Christ is the 'First and Last' concerning humanity. For God stated that He was THE First and Last, As Christ offered this He referred to Abraham stating that 'before Abraham, I AM. Get it, Abraham WAS a 'man'. And to further illustrate this: Christ 'BEING' the Son, would make God HIS 'First and Last' JUST as God IS HIS God also.
Click to expand...

*****
??? Naw, [you are] a man (?) asking the question!
The Word of God states it as FACT as the Everlasting GOSPEL, and the Everlasting Covenant Neither could be, if the Godhead were not all immortal! 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 Timothy 6:14-16, Hebrews 1:8-9.

--John
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Double Naw.

First of all. How arrogant for us to assume we are so "ALL IMPORTANT" as to be EVERYTHING. Sorry guys, but we're NOT. There WERE Angels before us and Christ before us, so we are NOT everything that matters.

To further illustrate why I think you are wrong John, let me add this:

The EVERLASTING covenant to which you refer is ONLY between God and man. We have NO idea exactly what took place 'before' our creation. So, it is ONLY an everlasting from it's inception, NOT from the 'beginning of EVERYTHING, only the beginning of man's creation. Everlasting does NOT refer to what took place BEFORE the covenant, so your reasoning behind your statement is flawed from it's inception. The Godhead ONLY had to be in existence prior to man's creation. We have NO idea how LONG the Godhead has been in existence. You may 'say' forever, but that is ONLY your opinion for there is NOTHING scriptural that will back this up.

I believe that for Christ to BE the Son, HE HAD TO BE CREATED AS THE SON. You can certainly choose to 'create' your 'own' definitions for words, but I don't believe that my God is so cryptic as to try and 'trick' us with words.

So, I accept the simplicity that IS Christ Jesus rather than the cryptic words of men that create something from nothing and then accuse others of being lost if they don't accept it. Thanks, but no thanks.

I will Love the Father AS the Father and pray to him as such. And I will love the Son, Jesus Christ AS the Son and pray through him as instructed. I will worship BOTH, but separately and allowing God what He has demanded, and that being; that I will worship NO gods before HIM.

There is ONLY ONE GOD folks, and the 'trinitarian' words that you have been taught will NOT change this in any way except in the hearts of those that accept it. Reallity is simply that and no amount of fantasy can change it one iota. There are those that believe in 'Big Foot' even after the truth of the hoax is out. So it comes as no surprise to me that there are many that believe in all kinds of 'man-made' theology as well. For God will offer 'strong' delusion so that they will 'believe' whatever lies they 'choose' to believe.
 
Exodus 34:14: “for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.’

But the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus let men worship him & even the father demands that the angels worship Jesus.

Matthew 2:2 “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.â€Â

Matthew 8:2-3: “And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him,

Matt 9:18: “While He spoke these things to them, behold, a ruler came and worshiped Him, saying, “My daughter has just died, but come and lay Your hand on her and she will live.â€Â

Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.†Why? Because the Son of God is God who can receive worship, He is God in the flesh.

Matthew 15:25: “Then she worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.â€Â

“When Jesus walked on the water and made the wind and waves cease, they worshipped Him, saying, truly thou art the Son of God.†(Matthew 14:33).

John 9:35-38. Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?†He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?†And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.†Then he said, “Lord, I believe!†And he worshiped Him.â€Â

Matthew 28:17: “And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.â€Â

Matthew 28:9: “And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, rejoice. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.â€Â

Luke 24:51-53: “Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. Amen.â€Â

In Jn.20:28 after Jesus tells Thomas who doubted to put his fingers in the holes made by the crucifixion, Thomas states “My Lord my God.â€Â(Gr. The Lord of me the God of me). Instead of being rebuked for this statement which would be blasphemy if false, he is commended and blessed, something no true prophet would do unless it was correct.

Hebrews 1:6-8 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.†And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.’ But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of your kingdom.â€Â

Philippians 2:9-11: “Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.â€Â

Revelation 4:10-11: the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, … saying: “You are worhy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and by Your will they exist and were created.â€Â


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So is Jesus God as is proved by his worship or is he a sinner who allowed men to sin by worshipping him?
 
Rick the holypig said:
Exodus 34:14: “for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.’

But the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus let men worship him & even the father demands that the angels worship Jesus. Worshipping Jesus is not in contension here, but it is how we are to worship him that scripture defines.

Matthew 2:2 “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.†It was made lawful by God via his prophet Samuel, for the Jews to receive a King and worship their King as ruler over them on Earth...but never as a replacement for God. The King is still subject to God. This scripture testifies of the men who came to worship the KING of the Jews, subject to the commandments of God. Jesus does not supercede the authority of the Father.

Matthew 8:2-3: “And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, As God or as the Mesiah sent from God who was prophesied of in the scriptures? MATTHEW 8:4 "And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew theyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them." In the light of these words, Jesus invited the healed leaper to return to the worship God commanded through Moses. Even though the leper worshipped him, Jesus instructed him to return to God and testify of his righteousness.

Matt 9:18: “While He spoke these things to them, behold, a ruler came and worshiped Him, saying, “My daughter has just died, but come and lay Your hand on her and she will live.†Everyone of that generation which believed in Jesus were aware that he was under the authority of God. It was prophesied of and Jesus fulfilled the scriptures. Worshipping the Messiah was not to replace the worship and authority of God; it is to fulfill the prophesy given OF God.

Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.†Why? Because the Son of God is God who can receive worship, He is God in the flesh. And this was righteousness because it was said by Jesus that God gave him these men. These men would not be able to worship him if it were not the Father's will to worship him as the SON of God. As Jews fully aware of the righteousness of God in this scripture, they could only worship Jesus as His Son and not to replace the authority of the Father.

Matthew 15:25: “Then she worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.†And to worship the Messiah sent from God was fulfilling the scriptures.

“When Jesus walked on the water and made the wind and waves cease, they worshipped Him, saying, truly thou art the Son of God.†(Matthew 14:33).

John 9:35-38. Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?†He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?†And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.†Then he said, “Lord, I believe!†And he worshiped Him.†Do you believe in the SON of God is what Jesus asked him, and this was the premise for his worship. Not as God but as the Son of God.

Matthew 28:17: “And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.†MATTHEW 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Who gave Jesus this power on heaven and earth? God - the predecessor to the firstborn.

Matthew 28:9: “And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, rejoice. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.†And they worshipped the Son of God as having been risen from the dead as he had foretold. Jesus taught and it was passed down through scripture that everything came from the Father. Jesus came from the Father but he did not replace the authority of God by coming into being. No, instead he fulfilled that authority through obedience to God's commands; and this OBEDIENCE made him one with the Father.

Luke 24:51-53: “Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. Amen.†They worshiped him as the Son of God but they returned to Jerusalem praising and blessing GOD. As Jews they understood the power of God better than anyone. None of this would have been possible without God, thus bringing the glory back to God which Jesus always tesified of himself.

In Jn.20:28 after Jesus tells Thomas who doubted to put his fingers in the holes made by the crucifixion, Thomas states “My Lord my God.â€Â(Gr. The Lord of me the God of me). Instead of being rebuked for this statement which would be blasphemy if false, he is commended and blessed, something no true prophet would do unless it was correct. My Lord and my God is the ultimate testimony of Jesus' proclaimation that He and the Father were one. My Lord (Jesus) and My God (The Father). So that we do not go overboard however, Jesus also proclaimed that God's work was that we would believe on His Son and on the one who sent him. It was God's work that we believe in HIS SON (as His Son) and on God himself (as His FATHER) being the one who sent him. This is the order Jesus taught as being God's will.

Hebrews 1:6-8 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.†And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.’ But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of your kingdom.†It is the will of God that we (and the angels worship him as the firstborn, thus it is righteousness. But to worship the firstborn as God, negates the authority in which we come to know the firstborn in the first place. "He again brings the firstborn into the world". Meaning God. I suspect the translation of "Your throne, O God," has been confused with the spirit described as "Elohim" too; but I will leave that up to those who know the proper Hebrew text. R7-12 I think this is your department.

Philippians 2:9-11: “Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.†Yes, to the glory of GOD THE FATHER. Confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father. Without God, Jesus would not be Lord, and without Jesus where would God's glory be? Understand that it is the will of God we recognise Jesus his Son as Lord, but that the glory belongs to God. Jesus understood this and taught this.

Revelation 4:10-11: the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, … saying: “You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and by Your will they exist and were created.†If only Revelation was that easy to understand. :wink: Though I can see the merit of this scripture, it is not one which is given unto clear understanding without hindsight. I'll take it as a truth of which is to be revealed in a future event. Until then I'll observe the teachings of Jesus as the word of God; that we are to worship Jesus as the Son and God the Father. Why else instruct us through the word to observe these things if it were not relevant to our understanding?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So is Jesus God as is proved by his worship or is he a sinner who allowed men to sin by worshipping him? It is not a sin to worship Jesus as the Son of God and Jesus made sure this was taught as well (to his disciples), giving glory to God the Father in all things. Lest his own example be in vain.
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Another's quote:

"Jesus" didn't exist 'before' he was a man. Christ existed as the Son in heaven 'before' the creation of man. Christ, the Son of God, became a man when we are told that He did; a little over two thousand years ago. .."

**
Where is the scripture for this above paragraph??

I highlighted & underlined what I do not believe is scriptural. Compare your thinking with Romans 4:17's last part of the verse.. "even God, [WHO CALLETH THOSE THINGS WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE]." (always remember this Truth for life/long use, when it applies)

A good example was Abram, surely, but we need to know 'time/wise' when, & only when, Christ was called a Son by the Godhead!! Notice the [PLAN] from Eternity as recorded in Proverbs 8:22-32 (see the K.J.) Surely we know that Christ was not yet God/man 'Rejoicing in the habitable part of His earth' ... 'and My delight [were] with the sons of men]'. Verses 31-32 (even this sites translation says.. 'mankind')

What I am saying, is that when we see the Son of God mentioned, it is always in the foreknowledge of the Godhead ONLY! ???? Give me a verse otherwise, for my study?

Read Psalm 1:7 (K.J.) "I will (future) DECLARE the Decree: the Lord said unto me, [Thou art My Son; *THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE.]"This surely must be the Truth, for God cannot lie!

It is easily seen that so far the God/man Son was only in the Eternal [PLAN]
And Revelation 14:6 IS THE ETERNAL EVERLASTING GOSPEL TRUTH. The PLAN for God/Christ becoming the Son of the Godhead, was for/ordained in Eternity, before Lucifer whom They created, was even 'then' known to have rebelled.

And for when Christ became God/Son/man, the Word again tell's us that also, in Hebrews 1:5 (K.J.) we see.. "For unto which of the angels said He at [ANY TIME], Thou art My Son, [THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE?"

Surely one will believe this in time?? Romans 8:14 Even compare Acts 13:32-33.
Paul stated there that this was a future PROMISE.
"And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that [the promise] which came unto the fathers, God [hath fulfilled the same unto us their children], in that [He hath raised up Jesus AGAIN]; as it is also written in the second Psalm, [Thou art My Son, *THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE.]" :fadein:

Bottom line: Christ is the God of the Godhead! :fadein:

---John
 
John the Baptist said:
"Jesus" didn't exist 'before' he was a man.
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Yep, this is true. I keep using "Jesus" to describe the before and after, when contextually he was only Jesus the son of man while on earth.

John the Baptist said:
Bottom line: Christ is the God of the Godhead! :fadein:
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Makes sense too, but I'm still learning so I can only agree with limited knowledge. :wink: Look forward to getting back to you on that one at a later date. Still happy to believe Jesus was the Son of God as testified of.
 
FSW - this has moved on a bit since I last posted. Sorry I have been indisposed and have had limited time on the net.

I have noted the points made by other anti-trinitarians but have they answered any or all of the points you made in response to me?

I'm only too happy to answer anything outstanding.
 
mutzrein said:
FSW - this has moved on a bit since I last posted. Sorry I have been indisposed and have had limited time on the net.

I have noted the points made by other anti-trinitarians but have they answered any or all of the points you made in response to me?

I'm only too happy to answer anything outstanding.
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********
John here:
Did you not think that my below question was worthy of an 'short' answer?
______
Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

vic wrote:
Quote:
Yes, Jesus is indeed the Son of God. But what does this mean? It means that Jesus was begotten of God. 'Beget' does not mean create. It means to bring forth from one's self (Like word). If Jesus was begotten directly of the Father, how could he be just a man?

I agree FSW. I blame this somewhat on some newer translations. KJ, YLT and LITV, the last two being literal, say begotten:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (LITV)

for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)

God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die. (CEV)

For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. (HCSB)


*****

Well, it seems that we need to know when Christ became the Son of the Godhead, huh? Psalm 2:7 Remember, we are talking of their 'eternal' plan! Hebrews 1:5 And Romans 4:17's last part of the verse sheds some light perhaps?

---John
 
Thanks for that JTB. I will leave it for FSW to respond to since it was they that disagreed with me.

BTW. Date & time stamps differ in each time zone so copying and pasting a date & time to a post is misleading unless the reader is in the same time zone.

Cheers
 
Imagican said:
Solo said:
Imagican said:
I would say that God is the Ultimate 'First and Last'. And, that Christ is the 'First and Last' concerning humanity. For God stated that He was THE First and Last, As Christ offered this He referred to Abraham stating that 'before Abraham, I AM. Get it, Abraham WAS a 'man'. And to further illustrate this: Christ 'BEING' the Son, would make God HIS 'First and Last' JUST as God IS HIS God also.
Click to expand...
Was Jesus a man before Abraham was a man?

Who was Jesus before he was a man?

Why does Jehovah say that he is the First and the Last and beside him there is no other First and Last?

Is Jesus God or Man in heaven?
Click to expand...

"Jesus" didn't exist 'before' he was a man. Christ existed as the Son in heaven 'before' the creation of man. Christ, the Son of God, became a man when we are told that He did; a little over two thousand years ago.

Jesus was Christ before He became Jesus.

Since Christ's body did NOT decay, I would say that He is probably both. A "part" OF God and a 'part of man'. He is the Son of God AND the Son of man. And this doesn't really offer anything to 'add to' or 'take away' from that which matters. What does matter is that we worship God AS God and Christ AS the Son of God, our Savior.
Click to expand...
Jesus is the Word, God Jehovah, come in the flesh and his name is Immanuel, God with us. The Word was not created, the Word is not the Son, the Word is God and nothing that was created was created apart from Him, the Word, creating it. All who believe that Jesus is a created being do not know Jesus, nor do they know God almighty. They are more wrapped up in their doctrine of devils than they are bound to the truth of the Word of God.
 
Quote:
[ "Jesus" didn't exist 'before' he was a man. Christ existed as the Son in heaven 'before' the creation of man. Christ, the Son of God, became a man when we are told that He did; a little over two thousand years ago.

Jesus was Christ before He became Jesus.]

*******
John here:

Well, again, if we are to believe this, the above that I highlighted, we will need to find scriptural evidence for it! Where is this located?

The answer is mandatory If one is 'creditable' and belives 1 Peter 3:15???
And if we cannot get 'vital' questions answered from the Word alone, (by any poster!) then we best read Titus 3:9-11 & apply it to any of our 'posts', including myself!

The only way God/Christ (Revelation 14:6) was a Son in ETERNITY, was by the Eternal foreknowledge Gospel [PLAN]. But, that too seems to be complicated, as O.S.A.S. is for some.

And to have a Son, the Father must be first. So as the Proverbs 8 verses are [not understood] (see 2 Peter 3:16 'other scripture) correctly, for if Christ had a beginning, so did the Father, which is a bunch of nothing!! :sad See Proverbs 8:22 in the King James. Compare Colossians 1:14-16 for who this is talking about!

"The Lord possessed Me in the BEGINNING OF HIS WAY, ..."

No: The Godhead are what the Word states! Three [separate] persons.
One is the Holy [SPIRIT]. The other two are separate as God with both having an [image.] Genesis 3:22 & Genesis 11:7. But it does not stop there!!
God gives more visible PROOF, if one cares to study further?
 
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