Trinitry Truth

[Jim Parker]

edited out because it touches too much on OSAS

from that premise then argue that there are three separate and distinct powers overseeing creation.

Christianity is Trinitarian.
If someone denies the Trinity, that runs up against historic Christian teachings.
It's really that simple.

If a Christian first believes God exists and is all knowing, all powerful, omnipresent, and creator of everything that is, was, or ever shall be, as the word states, then they certainly cannot say they know God who said he is one and there is no other was mistaken.

God is one in three persons.
That is essential, basic Christian doctrine.
To reject that is to reject historic Christianity.

God sent himself

Sorry. That does not make sense.
Someone GOES himself or SENDS someone else but he does not SEND HIMSELF.

 

[Papa Zoom]

This is closed for now. I have to leave so if it's not dealt with by others, I'll work on this thread when I return. There will be deletions.

We cannot tell others they are not Christians. I don't care if they don't believe in the Trinity. The Trinity is not an easy concept. We need to be careful how we discuss this with each other. Historic Christianity has dealt with the controversy and settled it long ago: God is Three in One. It's considered unorthodox to believe otherwise (and it's considered a heresy). But this is worth exploring without losing our minds. Good grief, you don't get saved having a perfect understanding of God. We'd all be lost if that were the case.

Deep breath peeps. Guess what? God is still on His Throne and still the Sovereign.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Unfortunately, many cults and religions deny the truth of the Trinity. From Mormons to Jehovah Witnesses to Muslims they simply call Jesus a prophet or great teacher or anything other than God. However, from Genesis when God says, "Let us make man in our image" to the Jesus' Great Commission when he says, "Go and make disciples..." and then lists the Trinity we say God's word delineating that truth. Even the Apostle Thomas after Jesus rose from the dead said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God." Christians only need to do a little research to find numerous places where the Trinity is mentioned in the Bible.

I post the above to get us back to the OP. But I have more to say so we're still closed.

For the moment.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Discussions of the nature of God are difficult at best because God is God and who can really understand Him? 1 Corinthians 2:16

There is no place in the New Testament that mentions the "Trinity." This is a factual statment.

We get the idea of the Trinity from a Multitude of evidence throughout the NT. In other words, the idea of a One God, Three Persons, is supported by the biblical evidence.

But, some define God (or understand Him) differently. We can with patience and grace, offer up our arguments for why we believe what we believe and leave it at that. Angry words solve nothing but to drive a wedge.

The TOS: 9) Do not promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity. (ToS 2.2)
8) Active promotion of sinful behavior will not be permitted. (ToS 2.1)
Do not make statements either by posts or posting URLs to other Websites which advocate activities, beliefs or teachings contrary to those of Christianity as articulated by the historic creeds, as understood by Evangelicalism, and as interpreted by the christianforums.net Leadership's sole discretion.

Of course someone could rightly ask what constitutes historical Christianity? And when did the idea of the Trinity come into view? People will have different answers to this question.

The SoF: The statement of faith affirms the Trinity - We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

That of course depends on how one defines "manifests" I suppose.

Either way, we cannot call out others who hold to a different view of the Trinity and say they are not Christians:
7) Do not post opinions of another member's claim of Christian faith. (ToS 2.4)
Publicly judging someone as not being a Christian and/or not following Christ unless they themselves claim not be a Christian is disallowed. That's between them and the Lord. This includes judgments against collective beliefs or groups in general.

This is an important point. If you think someone's post goes too far, report it. Don't judge the person.

Finally this:
1) Give other members the respect you would have them give to yourself. (ToS 2.4)
Address issues/ideas, not persons or personalities. Do not insult, publicly post derogatory opinions of others, post insinuation to belittle or discredit, or otherwise create a hostile environment. Present evidence for support or rebuttal during debate. Bashing the author of another view or opinion is not evidence.

If you get upset with a person's posts either to you or someone else, report it but don't go after the person. It makes things worse.

So I'm gonna delete a few things and then reopen this. Hopefully we can have this discussion and learn things from each other.

 

[Papa Zoom]

OK, I fixed a few posts and detailed them in red so you'd know. It's no big deal if you were edited. The alternative was deletion which I'll happily do if asked. I will be watching closely to be sure people are not addressed but issues are.

I'm letting WIP JohnDB Mike and StoveBolts know I'm reopening this thread and to please read my comments above and correct any errors or make additions. I'd like to see this conversation progress but it has to happen properly.

 

[Razeontherock]

I have isolated the point of disagreement not to inflame it, but because I think it's easily solved, and I hope reconciled:

But they worship three separate powers. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

The wrong thinking is three separate and distinct.

Those statements are correct, per the teaching of Trinity. Trinitarians who would affirm the statements here and worship as though God were 3 separate and distinct powers are probably new to the Faith, and vulnerable to being led further astray not yet being rooted and grounded.

So there is no real disagreement. The rest of this post that I painstakingly backspaced out on my phone also affirms what Trinity teaches.

One person thinks of it in one set of words, another person thinks of the same concept via different words, while some of us don't think in words at all. I don't believe God Judges based on semantics; if He did we'd all be in trouble since Hebrew is His chosen language to His chosen people.

 

[UberMink]

Post #1 had no scripture.
Acts 4:12 KJV
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I Corinthians 12:21 KJV
And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Galatians 3:23 KJV
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Would you explain:
Fathers baptism
Sons baptism
Holy Spirits baptism
Fire baptism

As trinitarians I think that is not a problem to explain.
......

The Bereans searched the scripture to see if what is spoken is true.
Acts 17:11 KJV
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Calling for peace / understanding among us.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

I think I'm going to gracefully walk away from this discussion as it will only lead to backs getting up as we all defend what we believe. Which is natural. Even Emmanuel showed temper.
Think money changers.
And not uncommonly discussions of a personal nature as pertains to theology very often have a flavor that seems as if participants are dedicated to changing another's mind to their way of thinking. This is where the conflict arises and the passion too. We all believe. We all believe we are led and we all believe we are on the right path.
God knows his sheep by name. Fear not for he will never leave you. Trust him and he will guide you to all truth. Amen.

I do want to reiterate one thing and answer this that was not addressed directly as far as I can tell to any one in particular.

Pneuma. http://biblehub.com/greek/4151.htm

And to answer this.

"
Would you explain:
Fathers baptism
Sons baptism
Holy Spirits baptism
Fire baptism " = God. *God is the father, God is holy spirit, Emmanuel was (Father) God with us. God is holy spirit fire. "Pur" http://biblehub.com/str/greek/4442.htm
Pneuma Excerpted from above link
Matthew 3:11 N-DNS
GRK: βαπτίσει ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ καὶ
NAS: you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
KJV: with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
INT: will baptize with [the] Spirit Holy and

Baptisma http://biblehub.com/greek/908.htm

 

[UberMink]

I have isolated the point of disagreement not to inflame it, but because I think it's easily solved, and I hope reconciled:



Those statements are correct, per the teaching of Trinity. Trinitarians who would affirm the statements here and worship as though God were 3 separate and distinct powers are probably new to the Faith, and vulnerable to being led further astray not yet being rooted and grounded.

So there is no real disagreement. The rest of this post that I painstakingly backspaced out on my phone also affirms what Trinity teaches.

One person thinks of it in one set of words, another person thinks of the same concept via different words, while some of us don't think in words at all. I don't believe God Judges based on semantics; if He did we'd all be in trouble since Hebrew is His chosen language to His chosen people.

I appreciate your backspacing on your phone to arrive at this posting. Thank you for the time that must have taken.
May God's peace and blessings keep you and yours always.

We are in agreement. God does not judge on semantics.
People do.
There is no Greek, no Jew, no Gentile, not man, nor woman, we are all one in Christ.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.



God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.


The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[eddif]

Ok so to some I will be speaking in a foreign tongue. If you understand let me know.

Romans 1:20 KJV
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The sun is 93 million miles away from earth.
The Father is in heaven.

The moon is roughly 239,000 miles from earth. Jesus is closer to us in symbolism. Now his quickening spirit can be in us. Our dark area of sin has seen a great light.
Revelation 3:20

The suns power generates light that is what the moon sends us. Jesus compares himself to seeing the father.

Light is like the quickening spirit the second Adam becomes. Inside us it convinces is of sin, righteousness and judgement.
I Corinthians 15:45

Now I can spoon feed every scripture ( and I am willing to do that) but my joy in life would have people searching the scriptures.

We can only use scripture (scripture became Jesus), or we can also use creation as we examine the Godhead.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Free]

Ok so to some I will be speaking in a foreign tongue. If you understand let me know.

Romans 1:20 KJV
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The sun is 93 million miles away from earth.
The Father is in heaven.

The moon is roughly 239,000 miles from earth. Jesus is closer to us in symbolism. Now his quickening spirit can be in us. Our dark area of sin has seen a great light.
Revelation 3:20

The suns power generates light that is what the moon sends us. Jesus compares himself to seeing the father.

Light is like the quickening spirit the second Adam becomes. Inside us it convinces is of sin, righteousness and judgement.
I Corinthians 15:45

Now I can spoon feed every scripture ( and I am willing to do that) but my joy in life would have people searching the scriptures.

We can only use scripture (scripture became Jesus), or we can also use creation as we examine the Godhead.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

No idea what your point is or how it relates to the Trinity.

 

[Free]

I think I'm going to gracefully walk away from this discussion as it will only lead to backs getting up as we all defend what we believe. Which is natural. Even Emmanuel showed temper.
Think money changers.
And not uncommonly discussions of a personal nature as pertains to theology very often have a flavor that seems as if participants are dedicated to changing another's mind to their way of thinking. This is where the conflict arises and the passion too. We all believe. We all believe we are led and we all believe we are on the right path.
God knows his sheep by name. Fear not for he will never leave you. Trust him and he will guide you to all truth. Amen.

Wow. You didn't even attempt to address any of the three posts I directed to you, even when they answered things you were content to continue to repeat as though they proved the Trinity false.

Nothing graceful about that.

 

[eddif]

No idea what your point is or how it relates to the Trinity.

IMHO the invisible natures of the Godhead / Trinity are seen in creation Romans 1:20

Which this time I have included distance.
Time is also interesting.

eddif

 

[Papa Zoom]

From the Forum Policies and Rules Sticky:

9. You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer. Do not speak for other members by declaring what they believe or make leaps and draw your own conclusions. Let them state their own beliefs and arguments.

10. Failing to answer someone’s question doesn’t necessarily amount to an admission of error or surrender but keep in mind that in any debate, if you refuse to or cannot answer a reasonable question, it may weaken your position.

 

[Free]

IMHO the invisible natures of the Godhead / Trinity are seen in creation Romans 1:20

Which this time I have included distance.
Time is also interesting.

eddif

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/trinitry-truth.73906/#post-1416592

 

[eddif]

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/trinitry-truth.73906/#post-1416592

 

[eddif]

Matthew 13:35 KJV
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

The physical creation of the earth was used as a teaching tool by God. These teaching facts are hidden until revealed.

It seems a little rough to call arbitrary what an intelligent God used. The Godhead is not arbitrary IMHO / scripture.

Parables are physical stories or studies with hidden meaning. Jesus explained the hidden meanings in private. The greater things done after Jesus are now made public:
Matthew 13
Mark 4

The ox discussion in old and new testaments.

Nancy Grace in action.

II Timothy 4:2 KJV
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

I really do not wish a war over using
Romans 1:20
But
It does seem to be a way to teach.

Redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

I realize I have taken an issue and expanded it. I can just shut up. I do realize it would be easier to quote nature and never make sense of the creation.

Why my pea brain goes here is beyond me. Given that I have seen some of this I do tend to repeat it.

My mother said “live and learn; die and forget it all”.

I changed her negative statement.
Live and learn, and share it before you die.

They locked up the apostles for teaching about Jesus. Jesus used parables and it took years to see some of Romans 1:20

eddif

 

[eddif]

Actually all this creation stuff came out of a desperation prayer. Every where (church / denomination) I went in rural Mississippi I got a different version. I tried some Greek classes (Presbyterian). Low and behold the Greek agreed with their doctrine. The Baptist seminaries Greek classes support their beliefs. Now I am not picking on any individual or group, but I just soon found out Greek taught by anyone tended toward agreeing with their doctrine beliefs.

I May even warp creation to agree with me, but I am open to discussion. Trinity concept is hidden. Somewhere the truth lies. Maybe a lot of us have a piece of the puzzle.

eddif

 

[Free]

I really do not wish a war over using
Romans 1:20
But
It does seem to be a way to teach.

Redneck
eddif

Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (ESV)

Of course Romans 1:20 is useful for teaching, as is all of Scripture. What this verse is getting at is, firstly, that an eternal power exists, and secondly, that this power is a divine intelligent agent. Of course there is more that follows from that, but it is about God's divine attributes, such as his omniscience and goodness, not his triune nature.

 

[UberMink]

Dear eddif,
You do not have a pea brain. Emmanuel said, enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Your words could be inspired to reach those for whom our Lord intends them.

God's peace and mercies surround you always.