Trinity Here

[tim-from-pa]

In the end times, there will be those who try to convince others that the Trinity is not true.
They will try to prove that between God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit, there is no Trinity.
They will try to divide Christians and stop them from having fellowship with one another, weakening their faith, and ultimately, destroying them.

DON'T BELIEVE IT!

The Trinity is true, Jesus and the Father are one, and the Holy Spirit is God himself coming to our rescue.
Always remember, only God can save us.

I'm just curious as to what criteria do you hold a person as a "Trinity believer" in these ends times? For example, I believe there's the Father, and the Son, and the holy spirit is the essence of them, what they are composed of and their power. I believe in the holy spirit, but it's the spirit (power) of God. I am binitarian by belief in that there's only two distinct persons of God (right now), and God being a family name. When we are resurrected, we are born again into the family of God so that there are more divine beings. That's what the bible teaches.

Consider. Jesus called God his Father, and yet the holy spirit came over Mary. So WHO is the real father, the holy spirit or God the Father? Of course the real father is God almighty who Jesus said "God is a spirit....". Again, I believe in Father, Son and holy spirit. I just don't agree that the spirit of God is a separate person just as my spirit is not a separate person -- it's still me! If you disagree, then tell me his Hebrew name? I only know the Father's (family) name, and that of the Son in Hebrew, who before he was born in the flesh was the Word. When Jesus came in the flesh he was as human as you and me, and needed the Father to raise him again, otherwise he would have remained dead.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'm just curious as to what criteria do you hold a person as a "Trinity believer" in these ends times? For example, I believe there's the Father, and the Son, and the holy spirit is the essence of them, what they are composed of and their power. I believe in the holy spirit, but it's the spirit (power) of God. I am binitarian by belief in that there's only two distinct persons of God (right now), and God being a family name. When we are resurrected, we are born again into the family of God so that there are more divine beings. That's what the bible teaches.

Consider. Jesus called God his Father, and yet the holy spirit came over Mary. So WHO is the real father, the holy spirit or God the Father? Of course the real father is God almighty who Jesus said "God is a spirit....". Again, I believe in Father, Son and holy spirit. I just don't agree that the spirit of God is a separate person just as my spirit is not a separate person -- it's still me! If you disagree, then tell me his Hebrew name? I only know the Father's (family) name, and that of the Son in Hebrew, who before he was born in the flesh was the Word. When Jesus came in the flesh he was as human as you and me, and needed the Father to raise him again, otherwise he would have remained dead.

Tim,
You and I have never discussed but I do believe you are a safe man for such a conversation. I am a Trinitarian believer because this is what God teaches us about Himself. I have only met folks that believe there will be many gods in Heaven when they are from some vein of the Mormon faith, established, first, in this nation by Joseph Smith. I do pray you are not from that arena because you have always struck me as a discerning man and although I have had a few LDS and Mormon friends they do not tend to the pure Word of God nor towards any sort of logic in the handling of the Sacrid Scriptures in relation to the Book of Mormon.

The Bible teaches that God is three distinct persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. And though I have read the Bible through a number of times and have done thousands of different topic studies I have yet to find any reason to believe i will be anything more than a Servant Son of God in or out of Heaven.

As I have thought the years of study through working on digesting what I have received of the Holy Spirit, I can honestly tell everyone that i will never try to use the three part of one egg nor any other lame earthly metaphor to explain what is not intended to be understood this side of Eternity but neither will I nor can I ever accept anything less than what the scriptures teach us for it is God's revelation of Himself.

Maybe you can explain your view on many gods?

 

[Sinthesis]

When Jesus came in the flesh he was as human as you and me, and needed the Father to raise him again, otherwise he would have remained dead.

Jhn 10:17 - Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Jhn 10:18 - No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Jhn 10:19 - There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm just curious as to what criteria do you hold a person as a "Trinity believer" in these ends times? For example, I believe there's the Father, and the Son, and the holy spirit is the essence of them, what they are composed of and their power. I believe in the holy spirit, but it's the spirit (power) of God. I am binitarian by belief in that there's only two distinct persons of God (right now), and God being a family name. When we are resurrected, we are born again into the family of God so that there are more divine beings. That's what the bible teaches.

Consider. Jesus called God his Father, and yet the holy spirit came over Mary. So WHO is the real father, the holy spirit or God the Father? Of course the real father is God almighty who Jesus said "God is a spirit....". Again, I believe in Father, Son and holy spirit. I just don't agree that the spirit of God is a separate person just as my spirit is not a separate person -- it's still me! If you disagree, then tell me his Hebrew name? I only know the Father's (family) name, and that of the Son in Hebrew, who before he was born in the flesh was the Word. When Jesus came in the flesh he was as human as you and me, and needed the Father to raise him again, otherwise he would have remained dead.

Hi Tim, if I could answer you, I'd be famous.
Christians long ago saw the distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and the Trinity belief was born.
Genesis 1:2b: "and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters".
No where in the creation story is God called the Spirit of God.
There is this distinction right from the beginning.

If the Holy Spirit is not God, then what power does he have?
Why is blaspheming the Holy Spirit the only unforgivable sin?
How can we be saved through the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit is not God?

 

[Malachi]

Tim,

Frankly, I am surprised at some of your statements.

I believe in the holy spirit, but it's the spirit (power) of God. I am binitarian by belief in that there's only two distinct persons of God (right now), and God being a family name.

As Rollo has pointed out, we see the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of God) revealed as a distinct Divine Person in Gen 1:2. That should suffice. We also have 1 Jn 5:7, (which many question as being Scripture, but for which there is sufficient internal and external evidence of authenticity): For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. If this is not enough, we have Mt 28:19, where the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one "Name" (God) which is inextricably joined in three Divine Persons: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

When we are resurrected, we are born again into the family of God so that there are more divine beings. That's what the bible teaches.

That's NOT what the Bible teaches. We are not "resurrected" when we are born again (since resurrection pertains to the mortal body), but our spirits are "quickened" or "made alive" or "brought to life". But even after our Rapture/Resurrection, we will not be "divine beings" as you imagine. We will indeed be in the likeness of Christ, but still human beings who have been transformed. There are only three Divine Persons and they are in the Godhead.

Consider. Jesus called God his Father, and yet the holy spirit came over Mary. So WHO is the real father, the holy spirit or God the Father?

We would be mistaken to equate the conception of Christ with human conception. When "the Holy Spirit came over Mary" it means that there was a SUPERNATURAL conception, not human-like procreation. God the Father is indeed the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, as well as "the Head of Christ".

If you disagree, then tell me his Hebrew name?

The Hebrew name for the Holy Spirit is Ruach ha Qodesh.

When Jesus came in the flesh he was as human as you and me...

That's not what Scripture teaches. Jesus was fully God and fully sinless Man. See 1 Tim 3:16 (KJV). Almost all the Greek manuscripts have THEOS (God) in that verse (abbreviated in the Uncials). See also Acts 20:28.

...and needed the Father to raise him again, otherwise he would have remained dead.

Again. That is not precisely what Scripture teaches. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were all involved in His resurrection. The Father raised Him, the Son raised Himself, and the Holy Spirit also raised Him from the dead. Sounds mysterious, hence "the Mystery of God". Check out all the Scriptures.

To sum up, the Holy Spirit is indeed God, since only God can be blasphemed, and those who blaspheme the Spirit can never be forgiven.

 

[tim-from-pa]

My answers and comments in RED (expand your comments please as some of my answers are there)

Hi Tim, if I could answer you, I'd be famous.
Christians long ago saw the distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and the Trinity belief was born.
Genesis 1:2b: "and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters".
No where in the creation story is God called the Spirit of God.
There is this distinction right from the beginning.

If the Holy Spirit is not God, then what power does he have?
The confusion can be cleared if we see the holy spirit is the power of God, so it is God as it is the essence of God and what he's composed of, just not a distinct person.

Why is blaspheming the Holy Spirit the only unforgivable sin?
The unpardonable sin is when the sinner does not repent of his sins and asks no pardon from God-- thus he's denying the power of God.
How can we be saved through the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit is not God?
Again, without addressing the topic of salvation (which is another topic of itself), the question you are asking "if the holy spirit is not God" is assuming it's a separate entity. Apples to oranges. The holy spirit is God. Again, it's not a separate person, but the power of God " God is a Spirit....." etc.

Now, let me put out a few thoughts and questions:

If the holy spirit is a separate person, then why doesn't he have a throne like the Father and Jesus at the right hand?

If the holy spirit is a separate person, then why doesn't the apostle Paul greet us in the Trinity instead of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ?

Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit. So why is the Father instead of the holy spirit the father of Christ?

Jesus said that God is a Spirit. Likewise the bible talks of the spirit of Jesus (now are there two holy spirits?)

As for the spirit of God moving at creation, note that it was not the Father that created everything! So much for the creed "I believe in God the Father, creator of heaven and earth... and yada yada yada" It was the Son (actually the Word) that created everything. Imagine the supreme creator of the universe in the flesh saying that his Father is greater than him! Greater than the creator? God spoke, and from nothing everything became. Imagine... The Father by the Word everything came into being! The Word was his spokesperson and means of creation. Boggles my mind. So that is tremendous POWER. So yes I believe in the holy spirit and it is of God. Just not the worldly and (IMO) pagan way of fear-instilling the nature of God into people. Most Trinitarian arguments make no sense to me.

 

[th1b.taylor]

My answers and comments in
Now, let me put out a few thoughts and questions:

If the holy spirit is a separate person, then why doesn't he have a throne like the Father and Jesus at the right hand?

I'm not at all sure that when the Holy Spirit was not indwelling the hearts of men that He was not seated next to one of the others, figuratively speaking. Jesus, before His human birth, was a Spirit Being, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit are. Where you seem to be missing the point is in trying, much to hard, to define the personhood in the same terms we understand of our selves and that is not true at all.

The Throne Room is, at this time, not a place as we understand place. there is nothing, save Jesus, that has anything to do with the Time/Space Continuum, created for our benefit.

If the holy spirit is a separate person, then why doesn't the apostle Paul greet us in the Trinity instead of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ?

That is a question only Paul can answer and none of us shoud presume to attempt.

Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit. So why is the Father instead of the holy spirit the father of Christ?

Because the three are one. They are one in a sense none here can understand, thus, requiring faith.

Jesus said that God is a Spirit. Likewise the bible talks of the spirit of Jesus (now are there two holy spirits?)

You, once more, are trying for the same thing Joseph Smith tried for, to place Spiritual things into an earthly realm. There is one God and that One God represented and presented in three separate persons that when one thinks a thing, all three think it at the same instant. Don't bother to ask me to explain what God has required to be addressed by faith, just because He said so. (Not trying to be cute, just telling the truth.)

As for the spirit of God moving at creation, note that it was not the Father that created everything! So much for the creed "I believe in God the Father, creator of heaven and earth... and yada yada yada" It was the Son (actually the Word) that created everything. Imagine the supreme creator of the universe in the flesh saying that his Father is greater than him! Greater than the creator? God spoke, and from nothing everything became. Imagine... The Father by the Word everything came into being! The Word was his spokesperson and means of creation.

Boggles my mind. So that is tremendous POWER. So yes I believe in the holy spirit and it is of God. Just not the worldly and (IMO) pagan way of fear-instilling the nature of God into people. Most Trinitarian arguments make no sense to me.

And they are not meant to appeal to our natural selves, these, arguments, as you mislabel them are Bible Facts that god has required faith to be applied to them. i.e. When I was a young boy and my dad told something about an aircraft, I believed him because I knew he was the best Aviation Mechanic in the US Air Force, I had faith and if he said it, it was fact. that is the Believing as a small child spoken of in scripture.

Why is blaspheming the Holy Spirit the only unforgivable sin?
The unpardonable sin is when the sinner does not repent of his sins and asks no pardon from God-- thus he's denying the power of God.
How can we be saved through the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit is not God?

I hate to say this to such a long time friend but the truth is you have built a straw man here to run down and eliminate. Nobody here has ever stated that the Holy Spirit was anything but God, in truth, He s the third person of the Triune God Head.

{quote]Again, without addressing the topic of salvation (which is another topic of itself), the question you are asking "if the holy spirit is not God" is assuming it's a separate entity. Apples to oranges. The holy spirit is God. Again, it's not a separate person, but the power of God " God is a Spirit....." etc.

Please, don't be rude but prove your case with the Bible and if you are using an external reference, please quote and credit it.

I wish you had not ignored my post and had answered it.

 

[Deborah13]

Just not the worldly and (IMO) pagan way of fear-instilling the nature of God into people.

Tim, I don't understand what you are saying here. Will you reword it, please?

 

[tim-from-pa]

Tim, I don't understand what you are saying here. Will you reword it, please?

I'll just say the same place that started worship on the wrong day of the week, and celebrates various holidays. It's paganism.

 

[Deborah13]

I'll just say the same place that started worship on the wrong day of the week, and celebrates various holidays. It's paganism.

Ok, I understand now, thanks, Tim.

 

[tim-from-pa]

The Hebrew name for the Holy Spirit is Ruach ha Qodesh

You just gave the translation of Holy Spirit in Hebrew. That's not a name. How about his throne? I mean, The Father has one, and Jesus sites on the right hand. Why doesn't the Holy Spirit have one according to John's vision?

These are the names I know:

יהוה
ישוע

 

[Deborah13]

You just gave the translation of Holy Spirit in Hebrew. That's not a name. How about his throne? I mean, The Father has one, and Jesus sites on the right hand. Why doesn't the Holy Spirit have one according to John's vision?

These are the names I know:

יהוה
ישוע

How do you understand the pronoun 'he' in this scripture, being used for the Comforter?
Joh 14:26 and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.

The parsing for the Comforter is masculine singular. The parsing is the same for 'he', masculine singular.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/14-26.htm

 

[Malachi]

Why doesn't the Holy Spirit have one according to John's vision?

That is something which only God can answer. What we do know is that ultimately the Lord Jesus Christ will hand over the Kingdom of God to the Father (1 Cor 15:24), the Son will be "subject" unto the Father, and that God will be "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28).

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.... And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This is way beyond human understanding, but it could explain why the Holy Spirit has no throne. It would appear that even the throne of Christ will be absent sometime in eternity, and God the Father will be all in all. We are dealing with the "Mystery of God". We either believe it or we don't.

 

[th1b.taylor]

You just gave the translation of Holy Spirit in Hebrew. That's not a name. How about his throne? I mean, The Father has one, and Jesus sites on the right hand. Why doesn't the Holy Spirit have one according to John's vision?

These are the names I know:orin

יהוה
ישוע

Tim,
I never thought I would say this but by ignoring me and Debroah you are being extremely rude and that is not, at all, common for you. And since you have avoidedstating openly and have refused to answer my question I am left to assume the only logical assumption, that you are not a Christian but are from one of the non-Christian Sects from the followers of the Book of Mormon.

This rudeness is very unlike any Mormon LDS or any of the other offspring, as a general rule. Even David Koresh knew he woulod never attract followers by being rude, in general terms and I, reaqlly, am not the FBI, I wish I were but that was never to be.

Having friends from the Mormon Church from my first year in the Army and having former followers inside my Extended Family I know enough
I wish you would open up and discuss your beliefs and not hide behind the, ever, transparent veil of silence.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Tim,
I never thought I would say this but by ignoring me and Debroah you are being extremely rude and that is not, at all, common for you. And since you have avoidedstating openly and have refused to answer my question I am left to assume the only logical assumption, that you are not a Christian but are from one of the non-Christian Sects from the followers of the Book of Mormon.

This rudeness is very unlike any Mormon LDS or any of the other offspring, as a general rule. Even David Koresh knew he woulod never attract followers by being rude, in general terms and I, reaqlly, am not the FBI, I wish I were but that was never to be.

Having friends from the Mormon Church from my first year in the Army and having former followers inside my Extended Family I know enough
I wish you would open up and discuss your beliefs and not hide behind the, ever, transparent veil of silence.

I got a lot of replies and my time is not what it should be right now. I just got on here again tonight. I did reply to Deborah. Your posts were more or less comments the way I took it. I don't reply to all comments. What question would you want me to answer again?

 

[Deborah13]

I did reply to Deborah.

Sorry, I asked another question in post #32 here it is again....

How do you understand the pronoun 'he' in this scripture, being used for the Comforter?
Joh 14:26 and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.

The parsing for the Comforter is masculine singular. The parsing is the same for 'he', masculine singular.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/14-26.htm

from one of the non-Christian Sects from the followers of the Book of Mormon.

Tim is not LDS.

 

[th1b.taylor]

The first one is your faith. As I mentioned, not believing in the Trinity is a critical issue in Christianity.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Sorry, I asked another question in post #32 here it is again....

How do you understand the pronoun 'he' in this scripture, being used for the Comforter?
Joh 14:26 and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.

The parsing for the Comforter is masculine singular. The parsing is the same for 'he', masculine singular.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/14-26.htm


Tim is not LDS.

Not trying to be rude but that i not an answer to the question.

 

[Deborah13]

Not trying to be rude but that i not an answer to the question.

Sorry, I don't see where you asked a question. I'm just 99.99% sure Tim isn't LDS.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I have ask him a couple of questions about where he found his beliefs and the LDS and the Mormons are not the only ones that subscribe to the Book of Mormon where Joseph Smith teaches that we can be gods, just like Jesus became a god but has never been God, with the big G. I understand we live in a Godless time where God deserves no honor or consideration from Tom, Dick, Sally nor from Sue but i also believe these that refuse or are remiss to honor God will not be happy when they stand the Great white Throne Judgment.

Tim says he is not Christian so I really wish to know why he is here, not that I object but what can I do for him and not knowing the source of his spiritual instruction, I'm left to flounder in very shallow water.