Trinity or just Father and Son?

[Follower Of Christ]

Welcome to the forum Follower of Christ.
I've moved your thread to Trinitarianism. No action is required from you.
Just keep on posting.

My question to you would be this:
If Jesus told the Apostles to baptize in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit cannot be God Father. Does that make sense to you?

I understand what you are implying. I have a question for you too. In Acts 2:38 we have "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Why only in the name of Jesus Christ now?

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand what you are implying. I have a question for you too. In Acts 2:38 we have "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Why only in the name of Jesus Christ now?

John baptized for forgiveness of sins.
Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Matthew 3:11
“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

We are no longer baptized by John but by Jesus' power.
The accepted FORM for baptism is:
IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

John could only forgive sin with his baptism for repentence.
Jesus could baptize us with the Holy Spirit when we come to believe in Him.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

John baptized for forgiveness of sins.
Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Matthew 3:11
“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

We are no longer baptized by John but by Jesus' power.
The accepted FORM for baptism is:
IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

John could only forgive sin with his baptism for repentence.
Jesus could baptize us with the Holy Spirit when we come to believe in Him.

That's not what the Hebrew Matthew Gospel states, a manuscript that was preserved by the Jews from the first century (Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew Gospel). Take a look at it. Paul states that the Jews were entrusted with the Oracles of God from Romans 3:2.

 

[eddif]

Trinity or just Father and Son?​

Repentance - sins against Father known

Salvation - Jesus provided forgivenes of sin

Power to witness - Holy spirit

Immersion in:
Father
Son
Holy Spirit

What else can a redneck say
I am thinking
eddif

 

[Runningman]

I understand what you are implying. I have a question for you too. In Acts 2:38 we have "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Why only in the name of Jesus Christ now?

I have a question on that note, too. Why did Jesus take John's water baptism of repentance?

 

[Follower Of Christ]

I have a question on that note, too. Why did Jesus take John's water baptism of repentance?

Great question. I can try to answer that - to defeat sin, Christ had to obey every iota and rule of the Law of Moses and statutes including the baptism of John by water. The baptism of John was nothing new in Judaism. For the Law and Prophets ended with John from Luke 16:16. Christ was carrying the sins of the world on him and was numbered as a transgressor being subject under the Law for our sins, and in his resurrection, he defeated sin and became an intercessor for us whom the Father has called (John 6:44). Keep in mind that John had the Holy Ghost so he was qualified to baptize Christ, for the Holy Ghost is sent by the Father. Let me know if I need to clarify more.

 

[eddif]

Christ was carrying the sins of the world on him and was numbered as a transgressor being subject under the Law for our sins,

1 Peter 2:24

(Jesus bore our sins in his body on the cross That we might die to sin and live unto righteousness) (from memory) that is the inward process,
(by his stripes we were healed) ( from memory) that is the external.

The law is still able to be used lawfully. Which discussion should not be (IMHO) discussed in this thread.

Jesus was borne under the law.

At the last trump final changes are made to/for believers.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Runningman]

Great question. I can try to answer that - to defeat sin, Christ had to obey every iota and rule of the Law of Moses and statutes including the baptism of John by water. The baptism of John was nothing new in Judaism. For the Law and Prophets ended with John from Luke 16:16. Christ was carrying the sins of the world on him and was numbered as a transgressor being subject under the Law for our sins, and in his resurrection, he defeated sin and became an intercessor for us whom the Father has called (John 6:44). Keep in mind that John had the Holy Ghost so he was qualified to baptize Christ, for the Holy Ghost is sent by the Father. Let me know if I need to clarify more.

Wow interesting commentary. I have a lot of questions but I don't want to just dump 100 of them here. So John was filled with the Holy Spirit before his birth, but why didn't Jesus get his Holy Spirit anointing until his water baptism?

 

[eddif]

Wow interesting commentary. I have a lot of questions but I don't want to just dump 100 of them here. So John was filled with the Holy Spirit before his birth, but why didn't Jesus get his Holy Spirit anointing until his water baptism?

Jesus. Came under the law. The Holy Spiritual descended and remained on him.

Lot of difference in on and in.

The kingdom teaching is about inside. The law Jesus was born under was more on. Makes you really appreciate what Jesus accomplished.

John the Baptist was unique. He prophesied like no other, that is why Jesus said John was the greatest of those born of a woman.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Free]

I have some time right now so I thought I might as well state my position:

Proof that only Father and Son are God can be discerned solely by reading carefully the Book of Revelation.

From Revelation 4:5 we have “…and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire which are the seven spirits of God.” From Revelation 5:6 we have “…I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth”. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is an operation and ingredient of The Father and Son.

Further proof is needed? Look to whom the twenty-four elders bow down to. They only bow down before God and the Lamb. From Revelation 4:10 regarding the Father “The twenty four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever”. From Revelation 5:8 regarding the Son “…the twenty four elders fell down before the lamb, each holding a harp…”. Also from Revelation 5:13 “And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea saying “To him who sits on the Throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever.” Again only Father and Son are praised, I do not see the Holy Spirit being praised individually”.

More proof is needed? Let’s continue. In Revelation 6:16-17 we have “Fall on us and hide from the face of him who is seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

From Revelation 12:17 “…went of to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.” Repentance is towards God the Father for having a carnal nature contrary to God’s spiritual nature and faith is on the intercession of Jesus Christ for us when after the resurrection we shall become sons of God for from Revelation 21:7 “The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.”

Shall I continue? From Revelation 14:12 “Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.” From Revelation 22:1 “Then the angel showed me the river of water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb.” Again only Father and Son have thrones.

Where is the Father specifically mentioned in any of those passages? Why should no specific mention of a throne for the Holy Spirit mean that he is not God? Should we take the things in one book, which can be variously interpreted, and have them trump all that is said elsewhere?

I see the Holy Spirit flowing from the throne, that is as an operation of God the Father and God the Son.

What do you mean by “an operation”?

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Wow interesting commentary. I have a lot of questions but I don't want to just dump 100 of them here. So John was filled with the Holy Spirit before his birth, but why didn't Jesus get his Holy Spirit anointing until his water baptism?

Please note that from Luke 13:28-29 "In that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of GOD but you yourselves cast out. And people will come from the North and South and recline at the table in the kingdom of God." I am paraphrasing this for we see that the patriarchs and prophets including John shall inherit the kingdom of God. None of them were baptized in the traditional Christian sense. Yet they are children of the promise, that is they believed from Hebrews 11:8,16 "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out not knowing where he was going...But as it is they desire a better country, that is a heavenly one. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city."

God calls us in mysterious ways. Yet, up to John and including John the Holy Spirit was given to a chosen few Israelis by God's will. Once Jesus came to the scene everything changed and salvation was opened to the Gentiles. And we must follow Christ's example. God calls us (John 6:44), we repent of our sins and have faith in the promise that we can be partakers of the heavenly Jerusalem by the intercession of Christ. Once we do so we can receive the Holy Ghost and are immersed (baptized) in it. But the crucial component is that we must be crucified in Christ first and then resurrected in spiritual body right before the Millennium. We live our lives crucified once the Holy Ghost immerses us until we are resurrected.

All of this is spiritual and the water component is a mere symbolic gesture (i.e. form without substance). Again, note that we must follow Christ's example. Christ was born of the Holy Ghost so the Holy Ghost rested on him throughout his life on Earth. All that happened at John's baptism was a confirmation from the Father that Christ had the Holy Ghost in the first place for people like John to witness. For us who follow Christ, we understand that we are useful to God only if we are baptized with the Holy Ghost and live the rest of our lives by faith and as a consequence when the Holy Ghost drives us bear good spiritual fruit.

Many people ignore John 6:44. "No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draws him." That is water baptism means nothing unless the Father has called us in the first place to partake of the first resurrection. Otherwise we are deluded into thinking we are saved. There are two resurrections, one before the millennium and one after the millennium is done. From Revelation 20:6 "Blessed are those that partake of the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power." I have a question for you: What is this second death?

P.S. Unlike the first Adam who was born without sin yet ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil by being deceived by Satan, the serpent (Revelation 12:9), the second Adam (Christ) was born and lived a sinless life and taught the good news of kingdom of God. Yet Satan the deceiver has muddled this message for the masses of people after. How can you repent and believe the gospel when you don't even know what the good news is in the first place? For more you can check my original posting at End Times section about the "Fullness of The Gentiles."

 

[Follower Of Christ]

What do you mean by “an operation”?

Take the bible verse God is Spirit from John 4:24. I can say "Follower of Christ is foolish". Yet being foolish is an operation of who I am yet it's not the only thing that I am.

If you want to dwell more into this, God and Word govern everything, in time and space and outside of time and space (third heaven). The Holy Spirit is here in time and space to guide us. From a time and space perspective you can say well Holy Spirit is God too. Once you incorporate outside of time and space it becomes plain that Holy Spirit is just a subset of what God is.

 

[Free]

Take the bible verse God is Spirit from John 4:24. I can say "Follower of Christ is foolish". Yet being foolish is an operation of who I am yet it's not the only thing that I am.

John 4:24 is stating that God is spirit in terms of his nature, in the same way John says in 1 John that God is light (1:5) and God is love (4:8, 16). But, I don’t see how that fits into the Holy Spirit being an operation of God.

If you want to dwell more into this, God and Word govern everything, in time and space and outside of time and space (third heaven). The Holy Spirit is here in time and space to guide us. From a time and space perspective you can say well Holy Spirit is God too.

How can the Holy Spirit be said to be God in one sphere or from one perspective but not in the other?

Once you incorporate outside of time and space it becomes plain that Holy Spirit is just a subset of what God is.

What do you mean by “a subset of what God is?”

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Hi Free. Thank you for your input. I think I might have disturbed the "peace" of this community a bit with my postings. I have no more wish to defend my case or make further arguments. I have a lot of work to do but I got caught up in this back and forth. Maybe I shall come back in a couple of weeks if I ever return here. If I don't come back to this forum, see you all on the other side. With much love - Follower of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's not what the Hebrew Matthew Gospel states, a manuscript that was preserved by the Jews from the first century (Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew Gospel). Take a look at it. Paul states that the Jews were entrusted with the Oracles of God from Romans 3:2.

I don't understand your reply.
It doesn't matter.

It's sad to see you go because YOU began this thread about the Father.
You haven't broken the peace.
We have a very peaceful and nice forum and you seem like a nice member so
we're sorry if you leave.

Discussion is good. It helps us to think.

 

[follower]

What I am serving you right now is spiritual meat. If someone’s stomach can’t handle it then so be it.

It may be more like pure milk of the Word than any kind of meat.
In any case, traddition is more important to billions on earth than pure truth.

 

[Runningman]

Hi Free. Thank you for your input. I think I might have disturbed the "peace" of this community a bit with my postings. I have no more wish to defend my case or make further arguments. I have a lot of work to do but I got caught up in this back and forth. Maybe I shall come back in a couple of weeks if I ever return here. If I don't come back to this forum, see you all on the other side. With much love - Follower of Christ.

No you're fine you can stay here. I am a Unitarian and even though everyone is always challenging me, I don't mind. I actually enjoy talking about it. Regardless of the disagreements, it does press me to keep looking and digging, yet I am quite content.

 

[eddif]

If you want to dwell more into this, God and Word govern everything, in time and space and outside of time and space (third heaven). The Holy Spirit is here in time and space to guide us. From a time and space perspective you can say well Holy Spirit is God too. Once you incorporate outside of time and space it becomes plain that Holy Spirit is just a subset of what God is.

Overseen Adamic man

VS

Supervised anointed follower:
Directed from outside. A disciple
of Christ.

VS

Inwardly led impowef sent ones.

As a redneck those descriptions lare inadequate.

But

Things changed in time. At the last trump, final changes will be made and eternity with God or eternal torment will begin.

The current description of trinitarian may not be exact.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[WalterandDebbie]

From Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them." So what is the image of God? From Revelation 1:13 "and in the midst of lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest." So Christ looks like human beings albeit infinitely more in splendor. Christ is the Son and the Father also bears his resemblance.

Now what about the Holy Spirit. There is nowhere in the scripture where the Holy Spirit has the image of the son of man. We have instead from Revelation 4:5 "...and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God." Also, in all of the epistles from Paul to Jude introductory greetings are done in the name of the Father and the Son. No where is the Holy Spirit found.

Now some of you shall say, well what about Matthew 28:19? This is where it gets tricky for there is a lot of discussion on whether "the Holy Spirit" was added later by the first Nicean Council. And note from Acts 2:1-4 that the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit after Christ died, where the Holy Spirit appeared like tongues of fire. Again, it did not appear in some human shape laying on hands.

I believe in Father and Son personally. We have to be clear on what we worship. I take the warning in Revelation 22:18-19 seriously and Paul said we must prove all things. No one has been able to convince me so far about the trinity except to point to the deep mystery of it all requiring some PhD in divinity. From Matthew 11:30 "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Hello Follower Of Christ, Welcome Brother glad you are here with us, interesting posts.

Love, Walter And Debbie

 

[Follower Of Christ]

I don't understand your reply.
It doesn't matter.

It's sad to see you go because YOU began this thread about the Father.
You haven't broken the peace.
We have a very peaceful and nice forum and you seem like a nice member so
we're sorry if you leave.

Discussion is good. It helps us to think.

GodsGrace I am going to stay. I had a lot of thinking done last night and my heart told me to stay here. Let's continue discussing.

Still, no one has answered my question: From Acts 2:38 Peter asks for repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. Why only in the name of Jesus Christ?