Trinity or just Father and Son?

[Runningman]

The resurrection was also for visible proof that Jesus was raised to show that He did have the authority to do all those miracles and to confirm what He taught in His ministry.

Sure, I could see it like that, but some of the most important pieces of information about who Jesus is are one-liners buried in large narratives so they are easy to overlook. So easy to miss the forest for the trees with the Bible. Every word counts for something.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

If you wish to look into Zechariah it needs to be looked at under the law as a shadow of things to come. We can look for hints of new covenant things yet to come.

From Revelation 19:10 "...For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." From Revelation 1:1 "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him..." Christ crucified and resurrected is the focal point in history for the things to come including the fulfillment of certain Old Testament prophecies like in Zechariah 11.

In Zechariah 11:8 "In one month I destroyed the three shepherds. But I became impatient with them and they detested me." In Zechariah 11:10 "So I took my staff, and I broke it, annulling the covenant that I had made with all the peoples." From Zechariah 11:16 "For behold, I am raising up in the land a shepherd who does not care for those being destroyed or seek the young or heal the maimed or nourish the healthy, but devours the flesh off the fat ones, tearing off even their hoofs."

Notice the similarity with Daniel 7:24 "As for ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones and put down three kings."

My apologies for the digression, but the reason why I mention Zechariah 11 is that in the future shepherds shall arise with various signs and wonders possibly, to destroy the sheep grazing in pasture and drinking the water. We are lucky not to live in those times yet, but it sure feels like those future times are around the corner if the love of many shall wax cold.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure, I could see it like that, but some of the most important pieces of information about who Jesus is are one-liners buried in large narratives so they are easy to overlook. So easy to miss the forest for the trees with the Bible. Every word counts for something.

It was just a thought.

I don't really understand how some could not believe Jesus is God.
If God had a Son,,,the Son would have to have the same nature as the Father...which would make Jesus Divine.

I also don't understand how you, among others, totally ignore Christian history.
Arianism was removed as an alternative to the nature of Christ and mainline Christianity prevailed.

Do we think we could know more today than the original Apostles or those they taught?

For those reading along that may be interested in some history:

Many people think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ in the fourth century, but a look at quotes from the early church fathers shows this is an egregious misrepresentation of the facts. In my mentoring letter this month, I offered a short list of quotations to demonstrate that the early church believed Jesus is God. Now I’d like to make the argument even stronger by offering thirty-six quotations from nine different early church fathers. All of these quotations predate the Council of Nicea.

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.1

Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.2

Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.3

There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.4

For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.5

Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.6

For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.7

I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.8

Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.9

Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.

And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.10

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.11

Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.12

The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....13

For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.14

Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) was the bishop of the church in Sardis.

He that hung up the earth in space was Himself hanged up; He that fixed the heavens was fixed with nails; He that bore up the earth was born up on a tree; the Lord of all was subjected to ignominy in a naked body—God put to death! ... n order that He might not be seen, the luminaries turned away, and the day became darkened—because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree.... This is He who made the heaven and the earth, and in the beginning, together with the Father, fashioned man; who was announced by means of the law and the prophets; who put on a bodily form in the Virgin; who was hanged upon the tree; who was buried in the earth; who rose from the place of the dead, and ascended to the height of heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.15

Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. Irenaeus was born in Smyrna in Asia Minor, where he studied under bishop Polycarp, who in turn had been a disciple of John the Apostle.

For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man.... He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men;—all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.16

He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.17

For more of the above:

Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God

For those who think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ, here are thirty-six quotations from nine different church fathers that predate the Council of Nicea.

www.str.org

How could we possibly think we know more than Ignatius of Antioch?
He was taught by both John and Peter !

 

[Runningman]

It was just a thought.

I don't really understand how some could not believe Jesus is God.

I am not really sure about Trinitarians either, but I guess it depends on where someone starts with the Bible. I've read the Bible enough to know that if one were so motivated they could appeal to its authority to make it seem to say just about anything. What I choose to believe is that the Father is the only true God and Jesus is His Son. The Bible does say that in numerous places.

If God had a Son,,,the Son would have to have the same nature as the Father...which would make Jesus Divine.

Perhaps we don't see who or what God is the same way. I know many people have varying perspectives about God. I actually believe God is a person with feelings, thoughts, plans, etc. He can be disappointed, rejoice, sad, angry, etc. God even sleeps if He wants to. Who or what do you believe God is?

I also don't understand how you, among others, totally ignore Christian history.
Arianism was removed as an alternative to the nature of Christ and mainline Christianity prevailed.

Do we think we could know more today than the original Apostles or those they taught?

For those reading along that may be interested in some history:

Many people think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ in the fourth century, but a look at quotes from the early church fathers shows this is an egregious misrepresentation of the facts. In my mentoring letter this month, I offered a short list of quotations to demonstrate that the early church believed Jesus is God. Now I’d like to make the argument even stronger by offering thirty-six quotations from nine different early church fathers. All of these quotations predate the Council of Nicea.

Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,









Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.






Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) was the bishop of the church in Sardis.



Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. Irenaeus was born in Smyrna in Asia Minor, where he studied under bishop Polycarp, who in turn had been a disciple of John the Apostle.




For more of the above:

Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God

For those who think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ, here are thirty-six quotations from nine different church fathers that predate the Council of Nicea.

www.str.org

How could we possibly think we know more than Ignatius of Antioch?
He was taught by both John and Peter !

There are plenty of non-trinitarian early church fathers. They didn't all believe the exact same things, but nevertheless they existed. I also believe God, Jesus, all of the prophets, and the apostles are non-Trinitarian.

Origen of Alexandria (c. 184–253 AD) He believed in subordinationism which is a common perspective of Unitarians.

Arius (c. 256–336 AD): Arius was a presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, whose teachings led to the Arian controversy.

Lucian of Antioch (c. 240–312 AD): Lucian was a theologian and martyr who influenced Arius.

Eusebius of Nicomedia (d. 342 AD): Eusebius was a bishop and prominent supporter of Arius during the Arian controversy.

Theodotus the Tanner (late 2nd century): Theodotus was an early Christian leader in Rome who denied the pre-existence of Christ and taught a form of adoptionism.

Paul of Samosata (3rd century): Paul was the bishop of Antioch and a proponent of Adoptionism. He denied the pre-existence of Christ.

Marcellus of Ancyra (d. 374 AD): Marcellus was a bishop who opposed Arianism but also held views that were interpreted as Modalistic Monarchianism, a form of non-Trinitarianism.

Theodotus of Byzantium (2nd century): Denied Jesus is God.

 

[follower]

Why only in the name of Jesus Christ?

All Authority is in the Name of Jesus.
All who oppose Jesus are less than a wisp of air, and will no longer be found.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not really sure about Trinitarians either, but I guess it depends on where someone starts with the Bible. I've read the Bible enough to know that if one were so motivated they could appeal to its authority to make it seem to say just about anything. What I choose to believe is that the Father is the only true God and Jesus is His Son. The Bible does say that in numerous places.

What does Jesus is His Son mean?
Do you worship Jesus?
Is He just a man?
If not, then what exactly is He?

The hyperstatic union also took some thinking.
As I'm sure you know.

You're right that the bible could prove almost anything.
You and I are proof of that.

This is why I like to turn to the early fathers for confirmation.
The ones that were taught by the Apostles.

Perhaps we don't see who or what God is the same way. I know many people have varying perspectives about God. I actually believe God is a person with feelings, thoughts, plans, etc. He can be disappointed, rejoice, sad, angry, etc. God even sleeps if He wants to. Who or what do you believe God is?

God is spirit.
He is not a man, although He does have feelings. At least that's how He presents Himself in the OT and the NT.
If he's a person, as you say, He sure must be a really big person!

God is not a person. We can't know exactly what He is.
He revealed Himself slowly and the final revelation was Jesus.
We have Jesus to go by.
Genesis 1: A spirit moving over the waters surely is not a person.

I doubt God sleeps.
He is what holds everything up.
If He slept we would collapse.

I have scripture for all of the above BTW, but I think you know the verses.

There are plenty of non-trinitarian early church fathers. They didn't all believe the exact same things, but nevertheless they existed. I also believe God, Jesus, all of the prophets, and the apostles are non-Trinitarian.

Origen of Alexandria (c. 184–253 AD) He believed in subordinationism which is a common perspective of Unitarians.

Arius (c. 256–336 AD): Arius was a presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, whose teachings led to the Arian controversy.

Lucian of Antioch (c. 240–312 AD): Lucian was a theologian and martyr who influenced Arius.

Eusebius of Nicomedia (d. 342 AD): Eusebius was a bishop and prominent supporter of Arius during the Arian controversy.

Theodotus the Tanner (late 2nd century): Theodotus was an early Christian leader in Rome who denied the pre-existence of Christ and taught a form of adoptionism.

Paul of Samosata (3rd century): Paul was the bishop of Antioch and a proponent of Adoptionism. He denied the pre-existence of Christ.

Marcellus of Ancyra (d. 374 AD): Marcellus was a bishop who opposed Arianism but also held views that were interpreted as Modalistic Monarchianism, a form of non-Trinitarianism.

Theodotus of Byzantium (2nd century): Denied Jesus is God.

Yes. Of course I know this. But the ones you mentioned were heretics.
Heretics meaning that they believed something other than what the orthodox church believed. (small c).

As Christians, we should at least believe what Ignatius of Antioch believed.
We should accept what the early fathers wrote in creeds as to what Christians should believe.

We could go back and forth with verses all day, but in the end we should believe what we were told to believe,
ESPECIALLY since the NT does testify to Jesus' divinity by His miracles and His resurrection and by the simple fact that HE did not disseminate His teachings, but the Apostles did. How strong must their belief have been? So many died as martyrs for following this new faith.

The best verse ever:
Matthew 28:19 THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

And there you have it: Each one mentioned, each one given the same authority and importance.
Maybe it was added later? Doesn't even matter - it's what the Apostles believed and passed on,
so in any case, it was the truth.

I like the following:

and belief in the Father and the Spirit was virtually implied in their belief in Jesus as the incarnate Son. For the heathen the case stood otherwise, They had worshipped “gods many and lords many” (1Corinthians 8:5), had been “without God in the world” (Ephesians 2:12), and so they had not known the Father.

(2) There remains the question, What is meant by being baptised “into a name”? The answer is to be found in the fact so prominent in the Old Testament (e.g. Exodus 3:14-15), that the Name of God is a revelation of what He is. Baptism was to be no longer, as it had been in the hands of John as the forerunner, merely a symbol of repentance, but was the token that those who received it were brought into an altogether new relation to Him who was thus revealed to them.

The union of the three names in one formula (as in the benediction of 2Corinthians 13:14) is in itself a proof at once of the distinctness and equality of the three Divine Persons. We cannot conceive of a command given to. and adopted by, the universal Church to baptise all its members in the name (not “the names”) of God and a merely human prophet and an impersonal influence or power.

Biblehub Commentary Matthew 28:19

Jesus is the WORD.
The Word was with God and the Word was God.
The Word was with God because it was a part of God...
The logos of God.

John would not have wanted his writing to be so misunderstood !

 

[Follower Of Christ]

All Authority is in the Name of Jesus.
All who oppose Jesus are less than a wisp of air, and will no longer be found.

Please don't misquote me follower. I was asking why in Acts 2:38 we have "And Peter said to them "Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." While in Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

I know from Matthew 28:18 that "And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me." I don't need a man to tell me that I can read the bible myself.

follower I also mentioned that the Shem Tov Matthew Hebrew Gospel states the following in 28:18-20: "Jesus drew near to them and said to them: To me has been given all power in heaven and earth, go, and teach them to carry out all the things which I have commanded you forever." Why is Shem Tov Matthew Hebrew Gospel 28:19 different from what is found in the Latin Vulgate for example? No one is answering that question.

 

[john alexander]

From Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them." So what is the image of God? From Revelation 1:13 "and in the midst of lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest." So Christ looks like human beings albeit infinitely more in splendor. Christ is the Son and the Father also bears his resemblance.

Now what about the Holy Spirit. There is nowhere in the scripture where the Holy Spirit has the image of the son of man. We have instead from Revelation 4:5 "...and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God." Also, in all of the epistles from Paul to Jude introductory greetings are done in the name of the Father and the Son. No where is the Holy Spirit found.

Now some of you shall say, well what about Matthew 28:19? This is where it gets tricky for there is a lot of discussion on whether "the Holy Spirit" was added later by the first Nicean Council. And note from Acts 2:1-4 that the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit after Christ died, where the Holy Spirit appeared like tongues of fire. Again, it did not appear in some human shape laying on hands.

I believe in Father and Son personally. We have to be clear on what we worship. I take the warning in Revelation 22:18-19 seriously and Paul said we must prove all things. No one has been able to convince me so far about the trinity except to point to the deep mystery of it all requiring some PhD in divinity. From Matthew 11:30 "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

For me, the trinity doctrine lost all credibility when I realized that Yahweh (who is called the Father), manifest himself in the flesh as the Messiah (who is called the Son). One God revealed in one person (1 Tim 3:16, Col 1:15-17).

Indeed, the light of the knowledge of the glory of Yahweh, is revealed in the person of the Messiah (2 Cor 4:6).

 

[john alexander]

I believe in Father and Son personally

Our Messiah said, I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no man will appear before the Father (who is Yahweh), but through me (John 14:6).

• The problem so often is that neither the teacher nor the student understands the meaning of this parable regarding the path unto having a relationship with the Father.
• This is particularly disturbing when one considers that the answer is given in the very next verse.

John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father as well: so from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him

Messiah said unto Philip, have I not been with you for some time now, and yet hast thou not known me? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how then do you say show us the Father (John 14:9)?

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Our Messiah said, I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no man will appear before the Father (who is Yahweh), but through me (John 14:6).

• The problem so often is that neither the teacher nor the student understands the meaning of this parable regarding the path unto having a relationship with the Father.
• This is particularly disturbing when one considers that the answer is given in the very next verse.

Messiah said unto Philip, have I not been with you for some time now, and yet hast thou not known me? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how then do you say show us the Father (John 14:9)?

What about John 6:38,44 "For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me", "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."?

Father and Son in terms of the complete family tree are one. But within the family tree they are separate entities altogether. From John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God."

 

[john alexander]

John had something to say about the Holy Spirit .
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

​

I believe that the Spirit of Yahweh is just that, His Spirit that dwells within us!​

​

Based upon the following verses, the Spirit of Yahweh cannot be the third person of a trinity​

The Holy Spirit presented as a separate person (who is said to be God), contradicts Yahweh’s clear teaching with regards to His Spirit. Consider Eph 1:13; when we are sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, it is the Spirit of Yahweh that dwells within us (Eph 4:30, 1 Thes 4:8).
Yahweh came forth (or manifest Himself) in the flesh, as the Son, and it is His Spirit that dwells within His children (Psa 51:11, John 4:24, Rom 8:9, 14).

• The Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, is the Spirit of Yahweh (John 14:16-18, 26, 15:26, 16:7-11, 16:13-14).
• John 16:13 is one of many verses that have been trinitized. Others include John 1:1-5, Gen 1:26, & Mat 28:19.
  
  John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth…
• Yahweh’s Spirit (that was poured out upon His faithful), did not suddenly become a separate person apart from Him in the New Testament (Gen 6:3, Pro 1:23, Isa 30:1, 59:21, Exe 36:26-27, 39:29, Joel 2:28).
• When our Messiah says I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you, He is speaking of His Spirit (the Spirit of Yahweh) that dwells within us (John 14:18, Acts 2:17-18, 1 John 4:13).

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of Yahweh dwells in you…

For what man knows the things of a man, except by the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of Yahweh, no man knows but by the Spirit from Yahweh (1 Cor 2:11).

1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of Yahweh, and that the Spirit of Yahweh dwelleth in you?

 

[Free]

Follower Of Christ

You didn’t respond to my post a couple of pages previous:

https://christianforums.net/threads/trinity-or-just-father-and-son.105217/page-2#post-1869336

 

[Free]

For me, the trinity doctrine lost all credibility when I realized that Yahweh (who is called the Father),

Where is Yahweh said to be the Father only?

manifest himself in the flesh as the Messiah (who is called the Son).

How is the Father also the Son? Where in reality is a father ever his own son and a son his own father? But, if that is the case, how can we even begin to understand what the relationship is between the Father and the Son, since that really is nonsensical to us?

One God revealed in one person (1 Tim 3:16, Col 1:15-17).

But, how does that support your claim that it is the Father?

Indeed, the light of the knowledge of the glory of Yahweh, is revealed in the person of the Messiah (2 Cor 4:6).

Sure, but how does it necessarily follow that only the Father is God, that the Son cannot also be God?

 

[Follower Of Christ]

John 4:24 is stating that God is spirit in terms of his nature, in the same way John says in 1 John that God is light (1:5) and God is love (4:8, 16). But, I don’t see how that fits into the Holy Spirit being an operation of God.


How can the Holy Spirit be said to be God in one sphere or from one perspective but not in the other?


What do you mean by “a subset of what God is?”

Free, I did not intentionally ignore your post. Here is my reply:

I think of total reality as composed of the following:
- third heaven where Father and Son dwell and are out of time and space (from Revelation 6:13 "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory forever!")
- time and space (where the Holy Spirit is sent as the helper from John 15:26 "But when the helper comes, whom I send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me)

Father and Son govern total reality while from Revelation 5:6 it states "...which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth". So Holy Spirit is right now in time and space which is a subset of total reality. A subset is an operation in a mathematical sense that is all I meant. So Holy Spirit is an operation of God bearing witness to Jesus Christ within us.

I am not understating Holy Spirit in any sense. Holy Spirit is our guide and teacher and without the sanctification of the Holy Spirit we cannot be saved. Yet it proceeds from the Father for from 1 Thessalonians 5:23 "Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[Runningman]

What does Jesus is His Son mean?
Do you worship Jesus?
Is He just a man?
If not, then what exactly is He?

Yes Jesus is a man who God chose. The time and conditions had to be right and no one really knew exactly when Jesus was going to show up. The prophets tried to look into it, but didn't say that would be God, nor did they seem to know who Jesus was until after the signs of his birth.

Matthew 12
17This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
18“Here is My Servant,
whom I have chosen,
My beloved,
in whom My soul delights.
I will put My Spirit on Him,
and He will proclaim justice to the nations.

The hyperstatic union also took some thinking.
As I'm sure you know.

You're right that the bible could prove almost anything.
You and I are proof of that.

This is why I like to turn to the early fathers for confirmation.
The ones that were taught by the Apostles.

I highly doubt Ignatius of Antioch was taught by John and/or Peter simply because he apparently didn't believe any of the same things they did. Peter nor John directly said "Jesus is God" like Ignatius did. If that is true, then I am inclined to believe those particular "early church fathers" are the deceivers the apostles warned us about. It's difficult to really tell so much anymore since so much is obscured by time.

God is spirit.
He is not a man, although He does have feelings. At least that's how He presents Himself in the OT and the NT.
If he's a person, as you say, He sure must be a really big person!

Yes if the heavens are God's throne, you can get the idea of how big He is. When I say person I am not trying to say he is a human.

God is not a person. We can't know exactly what He is.
He revealed Himself slowly and the final revelation was Jesus.
We have Jesus to go by.
Genesis 1: A spirit moving over the waters surely is not a person.

Got Questions' "Is God a person?" article says that God is a person and on that point I agree with them.

I doubt God sleeps.
He is what holds everything up.
If He slept we would collapse.

Yet on the seventh day God rested. Hebrews 4 refers to the Sabbath as God's rest. It can mean sleep.

Yes. Of course I know this. But the ones you mentioned were heretics.
Heretics meaning that they believed something other than what the orthodox church believed. (small c).

What is the orthodox church exactly? By what I have researched, the Catholics outnumber the Protestants. It would seem that one person's saint is another person's heretic. Ratios of numbers aren't really an accurate guide for what the truth is in my perspective.

As Christians, we should at least believe what Ignatius of Antioch believed.
We should accept what the early fathers wrote in creeds as to what Christians should believe.

Heretics were running rampant spreading heresies even as the apostles were penning their letters. You know there are many examples of that. Perhaps Ignatius was one of them. Let's see... where did Ignatius say the same things John or Peter did? I don't see it.

We could go back and forth with verses all day, but in the end we should believe what we were told to believe,
ESPECIALLY since the NT does testify to Jesus' divinity by His miracles and His resurrection and by the simple fact that HE did not disseminate His teachings, but the Apostles did. How strong must their belief have been? So many died as martyrs for following this new faith.

Test the spirits, rather. Do not just believe everything. 1 John 4:1,2 says a litmus test for this is that "Jesus Christ came in the flesh" and not "God came in the flesh." Isn't that a bit alarming that they were calling Jesus God when John actually didn't say that?

The best verse ever:
Matthew 28:19 THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

And there you have it: Each one mentioned, each one given the same authority and importance.
Maybe it was added later? Doesn't even matter - it's what the Apostles believed and passed on,
so in any case, it was the truth.

I like the following:

and belief in the Father and the Spirit was virtually implied in their belief in Jesus as the incarnate Son. For the heathen the case stood otherwise, They had worshipped “gods many and lords many” (1Corinthians 8:5), had been “without God in the world” (Ephesians 2:12), and so they had not known the Father.

(2) There remains the question, What is meant by being baptised “into a name”? The answer is to be found in the fact so prominent in the Old Testament (e.g. Exodus 3:14-15), that the Name of God is a revelation of what He is. Baptism was to be no longer, as it had been in the hands of John as the forerunner, merely a symbol of repentance, but was the token that those who received it were brought into an altogether new relation to Him who was thus revealed to them.

The union of the three names in one formula (as in the benediction of 2Corinthians 13:14) is in itself a proof at once of the distinctness and equality of the three Divine Persons. We cannot conceive of a command given to. and adopted by, the universal Church to baptise all its members in the name (not “the names”) of God and a merely human prophet and an impersonal influence or power.

Biblehub Commentary Matthew 28:19

Jesus is the WORD.
The Word was with God and the Word was God.
The Word was with God because it was a part of God...
The logos of God.

John would not have wanted his writing to be so misunderstood !

Apparently no one interpreted what Jesus said about baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit like you are saying is correct though. Where did anyone baptize people in those names? What is prescribed should match the actual example of what happens. If the prescription and the examples don't match we should try to understand what else they could have possibly meant.

 

[Free]

Free, I did not intentionally ignore your post. Here is my reply:

I think of total reality as composed of the following:
- third heaven where Father and Son dwell and are out of time and space (from Revelation 6:13 "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory forever!")
- time and space (where the Holy Spirit is sent as the helper from John 15:26 "But when the helper comes, whom I send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me)

Father and Son govern total reality while from Revelation 5:6 it states "...which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth". So Holy Spirit is right now in time and space which is a subset of total reality. A subset is an operation in a mathematical sense that is all I meant. So Holy Spirit is an operation of God bearing witness to Jesus Christ within us.

I am not understating Holy Spirit in any sense. Holy Spirit is our guide and teacher and without the sanctification of the Holy Spirit we cannot be saved. Yet it proceeds from the Father for from 1 Thessalonians 5:23 "Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I don’t see how that really answers my questions. You’ve basically repeated yourself without providing any clarification. How is the Holy Spirit an “operation of God,” exactly?

 

[Follower Of Christ]

I don’t see how that really answers my questions. You’ve basically repeated yourself without providing any clarification. How is the Holy Spirit an “operation of God,” exactly?

That's the best explanation I can provide, Free.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

I don’t see how that really answers my questions. You’ve basically repeated yourself without providing any clarification. How is the Holy Spirit an “operation of God,” exactly?

Free, I have been doing a lot of thinking all this week about this. Truly, if you have your heart set on 1 Peter 1:2 "According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: may grace and peace be multiplied to you" you are on your way to salvation. Thanks to whoever brought this verse to my attention. I don't think I have much more to add to this thread after this.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Maybe I have one last thing to add to this thread myself. The test of whether you have the Holy Spirit is by the fruits it bears in your life. From Galatians 5:22-23 we have "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, against such things there is no law." You either have these fruits in your life or you don't.

Further from Galatians 5:24-26 "And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another."

May peace and love multiply upon your lives!

 

[Free]

That's the best explanation I can provide, Free.

How can that be the best explanation? Equating the Holy Spirit with a mathematical operation doesn't really explain anything; it just makes the Holy Spirit an abstract concept. What does explain things is Scripture, such as the following passages:

Act 16:6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.
Act 16:7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them. (ESV)

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (ESV)

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" (ESV)

Php 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, (ESV)

Heb 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”
Heb 10:17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” (ESV)

It's worth noting that Hebrews equates the Holy Spirit with Yahweh, speaking as Yahweh in the OT.

1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully,
1Pe 1:11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. (ESV)

It's also worth noting here that we similarly see that the OT prophets prophesied by the "Spirit of Christ." So, the Holy Spirit is known also as the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of his Son, among other names. And, it was by the Holy Spirit that the OT prophets prophesied.

To keep things short, the Holy Spirit:

Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7
Listens: John 16:13
Speaks: John 16:13-15; Acts 1:16, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: John 14:16, 15:26, 16:7; Rom 8:26-27; 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; John 16:13; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: Acts 20:28; 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: John 16:13; Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29
Can be blasphemed: Matt 12:31-32
Convicts: John 16:8-11

These are all actions of personal agency. And on it goes. There is still much that can be said, but importantly:

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
...
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. (ESV)

Apart from the significance of paraklētos, what it means and where else it is used in the NT, we see all three persons in the believer. The best, most likely conclusion based on a plain reading of Scripture, is that the Holy Spirit is also truly God but is neither the Father nor the Son but equal to them.