Trinity or just Father and Son?

[Follower Of Christ]

No you're fine you can stay here. I am a Unitarian and even though everyone is always challenging me, I don't mind. I actually enjoy talking about it. Regardless of the disagreements, it does press me to keep looking and digging, yet I am quite content.

You know I have been thinking of the baptism of Simon Magus. From Acts 9:13 "Even Simon (Magus) himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip." Also from Acts 9:18-21 "...when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles hands, he offered them money. Saying give me this power also, so that anyone whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit. But Peter said to him...You have neither part nor lot in this matter for your heart is not right before God."

So obviously baptism does not necessarily lead to the gift of the Holy Spirit. More is required.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

In any case, traddition is more important to billions on earth than pure truth

Tradition is important the question is what tradition? One tradition is the one most are used to - that of mainstream organized religion with popes and ministers and pastors and priests cutting people from the head of the church which is Christ. The other tradition refers to the true legacy of Jesus' teachings and how to live by them. By this I am referring to Luke 12:32 "Fear not little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." The true church has always been few in numbers.

 

[eddif]

GodsGrace I am going to stay. I had a lot of thinking done last night and my heart told me to stay here. Let's continue discussing.

Still, no one has answered my question: From Acts 2:38 Peter asks for repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. Why only in the name of Jesus Christ?

Acts 4:9 kjv
9. If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
10. Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Matthew 9:6 kjv
6. But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

This thinks some thinking.

The Acts passage sounds like healing alone, but not after reading the Matthew passage.

The power to Heal and Savr are tied together.

I am not a one name person according to tradition. I am a one name under heaven for salvation person.

I am a redneck and see through a glass darkly. I am not totally blind though.

The name deal:
The Father is good
Repentance is preached through/by John the Baptist (sent by the Father)

The Son is Salvation

The Holy Spirit is empowerment to Witness.

Which Spirit? Holy

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[WalterandDebbie]

From Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them." So what is the image of God? From Revelation 1:13 "and in the midst of lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest." So Christ looks like human beings albeit infinitely more in splendor. Christ is the Son and the Father also bears his resemblance.

Now what about the Holy Spirit. There is nowhere in the scripture where the Holy Spirit has the image of the son of man. We have instead from Revelation 4:5 "...and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God." Also, in all of the epistles from Paul to Jude introductory greetings are done in the name of the Father and the Son. No where is the Holy Spirit found.

Now some of you shall say, well what about Matthew 28:19? This is where it gets tricky for there is a lot of discussion on whether "the Holy Spirit" was added later by the first Nicean Council. And note from Acts 2:1-4 that the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit after Christ died, where the Holy Spirit appeared like tongues of fire. Again, it did not appear in some human shape laying on hands.

I believe in Father and Son personally. We have to be clear on what we worship. I take the warning in Revelation 22:18-19 seriously and Paul said we must prove all things. No one has been able to convince me so far about the trinity except to point to the deep mystery of it all requiring some PhD in divinity. From Matthew 11:30 "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Good morning Follower Of Christ, Thank you for your post, I have thinking about what you are saying here:

Since Jesus Christ and the Father were both present during the creation week, Genesis 1:26 naturally speaks of “Us” and “Our” when referring to God. Yet, again, it was Christ who actually did the creating of “all things.”
Notice: “And God [Elohim] said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth. So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them…And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day” (Gen. 1:26-27, 31).
The last part of Genesis 1 records the creation of man on the sixth day. This passage reveals that the Father and Christ (remember, Christ did the creating—He was the God of the Old Testament) created man for a great purpose—to reflect physically and take on spiritually God’s “image” and “likeness.”

Love, Walter

 

[Follower Of Christ]

The Son is Salvation

The Holy Spirit is empowerment to Witness.

Which Spirit? Holy

From John 14:26 "But the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to remembrance all that I have said to you."

Whoa powerful verse! The Father sends the Holy Spirit so the Holy Spirit is under authority of the Father. Holy Spirit is sent in Christ's name that is to bear witness to our faith in Christ's gospel. I tell you Holy Spirit is a subset of the Father (yes being a subset is an operation of course in mathematics).

It makes much more sense when you think of the relationship between Father and Son. Father why have you forsaken me says Christ on the cross? Why doesn't he cry to the Holy Ghost too? He doesn't need to, Holy Ghost is part of the Father.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

I am a redneck and see through a glass darkly. I am not totally blind though.

We all see through a glass darkly. Fully agree with that.

 

[hawkman]

The way I see it the trinity has been accepted by a majority of Christendom for two millennia and I know how the harlot church operates. Read Proverbs 7 for an analogy. Anyone who gets between me and Christ, whether pope, or self-appointed apostle I totally ignore. And just because the Nicean council got together and decided on that means nothing to me. I am told by Paul to prove all things and that is what I shall do.

Explain to me where the Nicean Council gets it wrong in respect to the Holy Spirit and what harm that does to Christianity as a whole ?

If you don't mind that is .
I am trying to grasp your position .

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Explain to me where the Nicean Council gets it wrong in respect to the Holy Spirit and what harm that does to Christianity as a whole ?

If you don't mind that is .
I am trying to grasp your position .

Haha no worries I don't mind explaining hawkman. I think whether you believe in Trinity or something else is fine (we do see through a glass darkly) as long as people understand that:

1. Repentance is towards God (that is our carnal nature is contrary to God's nature, and in our natural carnal state we are just wicked and evil and cannot be reconciled with God)
2. Belief towards the gospel of Christ, that is Christ shed his blood to intercede for us sinners with Father so we can be reconciled with the Father.
3. The Holy Ghost is sent as witness to our acts and thoughts and as a teacher in remembrance of all that Christ said.
4. In the resurrection we shall be born as children of God, made of Spirit, not flesh to rule with Christ on earth during the millennium and with Father and Son after the millennium. That is what I know from the Bible.
5. Meanwhile, we need to revert to the basics of how the early church operated. There are only brothers and servants, no popes, ministers, pastors etc. cutting us off from Christ who is the head of the Church and we are the body.

That is in a nutshell my position hawkman.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Explain to me where the Nicean Council gets it wrong in respect to the Holy Spirit and what harm that does to Christianity as a whole ?

If you don't mind that is .
I am trying to grasp your position .

Please note that I do not think people who believe in Trinity are doomed. Or Christians of any denomination for that matter. But at the end as we evolve, we are urged in this Laodicean era to leave organized religion and seek Christ individually by proving everything on our own through the bible. The rest Christ shall take care of through the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

From Isaiah 30:29 "You shall have a song as in the night when a holy feast is kept, and gladness of heart, as when sets out to the sound of the flute to go to the Mountain of The Lord, to the Rock of Israel."

 

[Runningman]

You know I have been thinking of the baptism of Simon Magus. From Acts 9:13 "Even Simon (Magus) himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip." Also from Acts 9:18-21 "...when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles hands, he offered them money. Saying give me this power also, so that anyone whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit. But Peter said to him...You have neither part nor lot in this matter for your heart is not right before God."

So obviously baptism does not necessarily lead to the gift of the Holy Spirit. More is required.

What is required except God saying yes? There have been many methods where the anointing of the Holy Spirit was given to someone. It's been water baptism, the laying on of hands, and Jesus even just breathed on them and it happened.

You can also just ask, but the question is is one ready for it? Only the Father can answer that question.

Luke 11
13So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

 

[hawkman]

3. The Holy Ghost is sent as witness to our acts and thoughts and as a teacher in remembrance of all that Christ said.

The Holy Spirit empowers Christians in their work for God . But since you don't think ministers and pastors are necessary for God's kingdom you may not agree with me .

Gifts of the Holy Spirit are that empowerment for us to work to the Glory of God .

The Holy Spirit is much more than you offer He is .

4. In the resurrection we shall be born as children of God, made of Spirit, not flesh to rule with Christ on earth during the millennium and with Father and Son after the millennium. That is what I know from the Bible.

What kind of body did Christ have after his resurrection . That is what we will have , in that fashion . Didn't Thomas touch Jesus . A Glorious Body . More than just spirit .

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

5. Meanwhile, we need to revert to the basics of how the early church operated. There are only brothers and servants, no popes, ministers, pastors etc. cutting us off from Christ who is the head of the Church and we are the body.

And yet Jesus said to Peter , " Feed my sheep "

Tell me Follower Of Christ who feeds and takes care of the sheep ?

5. Meanwhile, we need to revert to the basics of how the early church operated. There are only brothers and servants, no popes, ministers, pastors etc. cutting us off from Christ who is the head of the Church and we are the body.

If a minister or pastor does not have a servant's heart he will fail .

That is in a nutshell my position hawkman.

Wow , I asked for it didn't I .

 

[Follower Of Christ]

What is required except God saying yes? There have been many methods where the anointing of the Holy Spirit was given to someone. It's been water baptism, the laying on of hands, and Jesus even just breathed on them and it happened.

You can also just ask, but the question is is one ready for it? Only the Father can answer that question.

Luke 11
13So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

Ah let me quote John 6:44 "No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last days." Father calls us, we repent and believe the gospel of Christ and then we are immersed in the Holy Spirit who teaches us.

So yeah, the Holy Spirit can be given through a variety of ways, conditional on John 6:44, when one is ready.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Tell me @Follower Of Christ who feeds and takes care of the sheep ?

This wonderful forum, for example that you guys have created does a lot for feeding the sheep. I have learned a lot through interaction with all of you. Iron against iron as it says in the proverbs. And I was a lost sheep while attending many denominations and I was found in a mysterious way while on my own. God has a strange way of calling us, and it's possible to be called while being part of a denomination, that I can't say. It's all about love at the end, for when it abounds all else shall be alright. Love your God and love your neighbor as yourself that is.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Tell me @Follower Of Christ who feeds and takes care of the sheep ?

Still, I worry about Zechariah 11 events that are prophesied for the future. Only love and understanding between true Christians keeps the day of these prophecies away. I am glad to have found this place to share my thoughts and I do not want to muddle the drinking water and grass for the other sheep. That is why I have been wanting to withdraw a couple of times from this forum. But I shall stay and be humble and mind my place in the drinking and pastures that the Lord offers.

You know I was camping in Denali once with my wife, and a big gray wolf passed on the other side of the stream, looked at us and walked away. If you have ever looked into the face of a big wolf out there in nature, there is no pity there just coldness. I know the Lord has kept me from harm many times and now I am starting to understand.

 

[hawkman]

I know the Lord has kept me from harm many times and now I am starting to understand.

Two days ago the wind was really blowing where my wife works and I was with her that day . I take walks around the building here and a sign over one of the stores , I had walked by at least twice that day , falls off into the parking lot and sidewalk . Just missed a Harley rider who had backed out of the parking space the sign fell into after it took out a car windshield .

 

[Runningman]

Ah let me quote John 6:44 "No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last days." Father calls us, we repent and believe the gospel of Christ and then we are immersed in the Holy Spirit who teaches us.

So yeah, the Holy Spirit can be given through a variety of ways, conditional on John 6:44, when one is ready.

Exactly. And Jesus has the Father's permission to give eternal life to those who the Father gave him.

John 17
2For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace I am going to stay. I had a lot of thinking done last night and my heart told me to stay here. Let's continue discussing.

Still, no one has answered my question: From Acts 2:38 Peter asks for repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. Why only in the name of Jesus Christ?

Happy to hear the above.

I thought I had replied to your question back in post 22.

Being baptized by Jesus is a TYPE of baptism.
Also for forgiveness of sins, but with the Holy Spirit and fire....
not ONLY for forgiveness of sins as John the Baptist baptized to prepare the way for our Lord.

There is also a FORM to baptism.
Baptism must be in the name of THE FATHER THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Jesus Himself said this in Matthew 28:19.
I tend to agree with Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Two days ago the wind was really blowing where my wife works and I was with her that day . I take walks around the building here and a sign over one of the stores , I had walked by at least twice that day , falls off into the parking lot and sidewalk . Just missed a Harley rider who had backed out of the parking space the sign fell into after it took out a car windshield .

I'm not too sure about guardian angels - but sometimes it surely seems like they're around!

 

[eddif]

Still, I worry about Zechariah 11 events that are prophesied for the future. Only love and understanding between true Christians keeps the day of these prophecies away. I am glad to have found this place to share my thoughts and I do not want to muddle the drinking water and grass for the other sheep. That is why I have been wanting to withdraw a couple of times from this forum. But I shall stay and be humble and mind my place in the drinking and pastures that the Lord offers.

If you wish to look into Zechariah it needs to be looked at under the law as a shadow of things to come. We can look for hints of new covenant things yet to come.

Mississippi redneck.
eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

Exactly. And Jesus has the Father's permission to give eternal life to those who the Father gave him.

John 17
2For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him.

The resurrection was also for visible proof that Jesus was raised to show that He did have the authority to do all those miracles and to confirm what He taught in His ministry.