Two or Three and the Need

[Boaz]

You're right. The O.T. uses the terms soul and spirit interchangeably.

But the soul and body are separate.
The body is a physical object...you know the name of each part and a person can "feel" their body. The body is part of us because we recognize each other by how we look, and walk, and speak, etc.

We also know each other by our soul....we each have a different set of emotions that can control us, our will is different. Where in our body the soul is cannot be pin-pointed, although it must be in the mind.

Regarding the soul being the same as the spirit, some do believe that the spirit is a part of the soul; however, all scholars believe that the soul and spirit are different. That would be a dichotomy....

I believe in a trichotomy because it's easier to understand.

I am suggesting/questioning whether the body might be included in our soul. We still have bodies in Heaven, they have become incorruptible. At the resurrection, the dead in Christ rise from the grave, even from the seas. And that soul and spirit might not be two different things. We are whole being. Also I do not know where in the Bible it says our soul is our mind, will and emotions. That is a conclusion reached by someone or someones, and thrown around so often we accept it as truth. Like when people say "The Bible says God helps those who help themselves." when really Ben Franklin said it and the Bible says the opposite.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know if animals know about God in some way. I do know God communes with them and they listen. He tells the deer when to lay down and have her young. He tells the geese when and where to migrate, same with the Monarch butterfly etc etc.
Sorry. Side track.

Think of this:
God rules everything. He's sovereign.
God has set up the laws of nature.
They affect animals and humans...
even unbelieving women know when their time has come to born a baby.

Animals do not pray to God...they have no concept of God.
They ARE creatures of God since He created them, and they follow the laws of nature, just like we all do.

 

[Boaz]

Great question.
How I come up with it is that I studied it and it was confirmed by two different churches. I confess that I learn from real human beings that know the theology of their chosen denomination.

....................................................................................
The soul is comprised of:
The Mind: The capacity to think and reason
The Emotions: The capacity to experience feeling
The Will: The capacity to desire and choose

The above are interlocked:
Mental functions are influenced by emotional and volitional functions.
Desires are interlocked with emotions and intellect.
Emotions are affected by your desires and your intellect.

The soul functions are amoral.

source: Dynamics of Discipling
Arts Publications Ltd.

.................................................................................................

There are many verses about the soul...
but, offhand, I can't really think of any that speak specifically to the soul being the mind, will and emotion of the human person.

W
Hadn't read this before I posted last. The definitions of mind, will and emotions are of course accurate. It was PEOPLE who decided that must be the soul. Truthfully, only God knows for sure what our soul and spirit are. The rest is speculation and it probably doesn't really matter. We don't have to know everything.

 

[Boaz]

Think of this:
God rules everything. He's sovereign.
God has set up the laws of nature.
They affect animals and humans...
even unbelieving women know when their time has come to born a baby.

Animals do not pray to God...they have no concept of God.
They ARE creatures of God since He created them, and they follow the laws of nature, just like we all do.

I know they don't pray. And I don't think they are aware of God, at least not in any recognizable to us sense. But I do think He communicates with them ,remember Baalam' s donkey, but no I don't think they recognize that communication as God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am suggesting/questioning whether the body might be included in our soul. We still have bodies in Heaven, they have become incorruptible. At the resurrection, the dead in Christ rise from the grave, even from the seas. And that soul and spirit might not be two different things. We are whole being. Also I do not know where in the Bible it says our soul is our mind, will and emotions. That is a conclusion reached by someone or someones, and thrown around so often we accept it as truth. Like when people say "The Bible says God helps those who help themselves." when really Ben Franklin said it and the Bible says the opposite.

No R, I wouldn't say that coming up with the idea of Body, Sou, Spirit is the same as saying God helps those that help themselves.

We don't get our incorruptable body when we die, but at the resurrection.
See 1 Corinthians 15:42..........

When we die we receive our glorified body.
We still have our soul and our spirit.

At the resurrection, we receive our immortal bodìes and we will still have our soul and spirit.

The 3 steps to death are:
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

Romans 8:30 speaks about glorification

 

[Boaz]

No R, I wouldn't say that coming up with the idea of Body, Sou, Spirit is the same as saying God helps those that help themselves.

We don't get our incorruptable body when we die, but at the resurrection.
See 1 Corinthians 15:42..........

When we die we receive our glorified body.
We still have our soul and our spirit.

At the resurrection, we receive our immortal bodìes and we will still have our soul and spirit.

The 3 steps to death are:
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

Romans 8:30 speaks about glorification

Well W, I didn't say the two sayings were the same thing. I merely used the BF quote as an EXAMPLE of things so often repeated, and with authority, that we take for granted that it his true.
Incorruptible body, glorified body. I always considered them synonymous. But those are all minor disagreements between us. Good conversation though.
I must confess I have no idea what you mean by the three steps of death being justification, sanctification glorification. Explain please?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well W, I didn't say the two sayings were the same thing. I merely used the BF quote as an EXAMPLE of things so often repeated, and with authority, that we take for granted that it his true.
Incorruptible body, glorified body. I always considered them synonymous. But those are all minor disagreements between us. Good conversation though.
I must confess I have no idea what you mean by the three steps of death being justification, sanctification glorification. Explain please?

There are 3 steps to getting to heaven.
Toward our death and final salvation which comes after death.

1. Justification: We come to believe in God. We decide to serve him.
God justifies us and declares us saved. God makes the first move by revealing Himself to us....we make the second move by accepting His invitation.
John 3:16

2. Sanctification: Immediately we become friends and sons of God. During our lifetime on earth we endeavor to serve God and not the enemy. Any verse in the bible regarding doing good deeds/works will be applied to sanctification, or, being set apart for the work of God - which is what sanctification means.
Colossians 1:10... and many more.

3. Glorification: We have lived a life for God...when we go to the other side, we have attained our glorified body...we are in the glory of §God.
Romans 8:29-30

 

[Boaz]

There are 3 steps to getting to heaven.
Toward our death and final salvation which comes after death.

1. Justification: We come to believe in God. We decide to serve him.
God justifies us and declares us saved. God makes the first move by revealing Himself to us....we make the second move by accepting His invitation.
John 3:16

2. Sanctification: Immediately we become friends and sons of God. During our lifetime on earth we endeavor to serve God and not the enemy. Any verse in the bible regarding doing good deeds/works will be applied to sanctification, or, being set apart for the work of God - which is what sanctification means.
Colossians 1:10... and many more.

3. Glorification: We have lived a life for God...when we go to the other side, we have attained our glorified body...we are in the glory of §God.
Romans 8:29-30

I never looked at it as the progression towards death, rather life in it's fullness, but yes. It is working towards the death of this corruptible body. That is one of the things I like on this site. Seeing other perspectives.
Of course we already know we disagree on how the justification comes about. I say we believe purely by the work of the Holy Spirit in us and that deciding to serve God is not added to it. Justification is completed with belief. When asked by His disciples how to be saved, He said, "just believe". It is the Holy Spirit dwelling in us that brings about the desire to serve God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I never looked at it as the progression towards death, rather life in it's fullness, but yes. It is working towards the death of this corruptible body. That is one of the things I like on this site. Seeing other perspectives.
Of course we already know we disagree on how the justification comes about. I say we believe purely by the work of the Holy Spirit in us and that deciding to serve God is not added to it. Justification is completed with belief. When asked by His disciples how to be saved, He said, "just believe". It is the Holy Spirit dwelling in us that brings about the desire to serve God.

Life in its fullness is a good way to understand it, but to a new Christian (not you) it would be explained the way I posted.

We agree on justification but not on how it comes about. I knew that. I also believe it is by belief,,,but by my free will belief....as you've stated, when asked by His disciples how to be saved, He said:
Just believe. Sounds like it's something WE have to do, or Jesus would have said: NOTHING...God will make you believe.
It IS a very different understanding -- that's for sure.
Did you know that the ECFs believed in free will? If they don't know...who does? They learned directly from the Apostles. But this is a different thread.

I also agree with you that it's the Holy Spirit in us that brings about the desire to serve God.

 

[Edward]

Animals do not have a spirit since they know nothing about God and/or serving Him. But, who knows, maybe we will see our pets in heaven! I also would like to see mine again. Maybe God will allow this for our happiness?

I used to think that animals didn't have a spirit but I'm pretty sure that's wrong now though. Scripture says that all of creation sings praises unto God. So they would have to if that is true. Not only that but I heard a testimony one time and the lady said that during her visitation Jesus apparently quipped with her that...her cat contemplates God better than she does! I think that's hilarious. Plus I've heard several others who have all said they seen their pets in heaven while there.

But the topic of this thread is a good one and one I have been chewing on myself. It seems to me that, spirit and soul are definitely separate. We all seem to have a good handle on what is our spirit, it belongs to God and is the life force which animates us. But the soul? I think our soul comes to us largely empty and our growth and experiences, mind and emotions all contribute to our development of personality and character traits and imprints upon our soul to make us a record of who we are and have become.

Anyone can have a bad thought come into their mind, and that is not a sin. It depends on what we do with the thought that determines the outcome of it, Do we take the thought captive and cast it down, to Jesus's feet? Or do we entertain the thought. If we entertain the thought then after a unknown time has elapsed it enters our heart then becomes part of who we are. Scripture backs this up, As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

So loosely speaking, in a way we are kind of creating our own soul and it's permanent record. And over a lifetime will be either full of darkness or light. The soul is at war with the spirit and both have a voice. Then somewhere is our mind which we guide into making the decision, and we seem to make the decision as a third party with contrast to the soul and spirit. Which makes everything we do a test, trial and reactionary queries. We either choose life or choose death. We either listen to and obey our spirit or we listen to and obey our soul and it's evil proclivities. .

I'm not saying this 100% accurate, but it is what I think. The Lord seems to remain silent on a lot of these things to me.

We all will be judged on what we think, what is in our heart and what we actually did do. So, choose wisely. I also think that listening to the spirit allows him to win that round so to speak, and then he grows a bit stronger. Listening to the friend of the world (the soul) always takes us off of the path of the Lord and makes the soul stronger and more in control.

Or so it seems to me.

 

[Boaz]

Life in its fullness is a good way to understand it, but to a new Christian (not you) it would be explained the way I posted.

We agree on justification but not on how it comes about. I knew that. I also believe it is by belief,,,but by my free will belief....as you've stated, when asked by His disciples how to be saved, He said:
Just believe. Sounds like it's something WE have to do, or Jesus would have said: NOTHING...God will make you believe.
It IS a very different understanding -- that's for sure.
Did you know that the ECFs believed in free will? If they don't know...who does? They learned directly from the Apostles. But this is a different thread.

I also agree with you that it's the Holy Spirit in us that brings about the desire to serve God.

W
Not sure what ECF is so excuse my ignorance and enlighten me!
I am not debating our different theological perspective when I state the following, just throwing some light on how Reformeds view the statement, just believe.
If one believes, and the believing is given you from God, then it isn't something we do. We actually do the believing in our hearts and minds, it isn't done by osmosis, we do things the way God designed humans to function. And we do make a choice. I remember making it. It is what people do. Our faith isn't blind. We have heard the gospel and believe or not believe. In my OPINION we can't DECIDE we will believe something, we either do or don't.
In any case we really only differ on how the believing came about. And if you are right and I am wrong or the other way around, we believe. What we believe about how it happened doesn't change that it IS.

 

[GodsGrace]

I used to think that animals didn't have a spirit but I'm pretty sure that's wrong now though. Scripture says that all of creation sings praises unto God. So they would have to if that is true. Not only that but I heard a testimony one time and the lady said that during her visitation Jesus apparently quipped with her that...her cat contemplates God better than she does! I think that's hilarious. Plus I've heard several others who have all said they seen their pets in heaven while there.

But the topic of this thread is a good one and one I have been chewing on myself. It seems to me that, spirit and soul are definitely separate. We all seem to have a good handle on what is our spirit, it belongs to God and is the life force which animates us. But the soul? I think our soul comes to us largely empty and our growth and experiences, mind and emotions all contribute to our development of personality and character traits and imprints upon our soul to make us a record of who we are and have become.

Anyone can have a bad thought come into their mind, and that is not a sin. It depends on what we do with the thought that determines the outcome of it, Do we take the thought captive and cast it down, to Jesus's feet? Or do we entertain the thought. If we entertain the thought then after a unknown time has elapsed it enters our heart then becomes part of who we are. Scripture backs this up, As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

So loosely speaking, in a way we are kind of creating our own soul and it's permanent record. And over a lifetime will be either full of darkness or light. The soul is at war with the spirit and both have a voice. Then somewhere is our mind which we guide into making the decision, and we seem to make the decision as a third party with contrast to the soul and spirit. Which makes everything we do a test, trial and reactionary queries. We either choose life or choose death. We either listen to and obey our spirit or we listen to and obey our soul and it's evil proclivities. .

I'm not saying this 100% accurate, but it is what I think. The Lord seems to remain silent on a lot of these things to me.

We all will be judged on what we think, what is in our heart and what we actually did do. So, choose wisely. I also think that listening to the spirit allows him to win that round so to speak, and then he grows a bit stronger. Listening to the friend of the world (the soul) always takes us off of the path of the Lord and makes the soul stronger and more in control.

Or so it seems to me.

Ed,
What do you mean during the lady's visitation?
You mean Jesus actually visited her visibly?
If so, do you believe this?
Then we also have to believe what Catholics believe about seeing Mary all over the globe.
Just a thought.

Interesting about the soul coming to us empty and then it gets filled up with experiences, etc. I know you've heard about Nature vs Nurture. Are we born the way we are? Or are we raised to be the way we are? Science has finally figured out that it's a little bit of both.

So we're born with certain tendencies...depending on how our parents handle them,,,we become who we are. This is our soul. Which you distringuish from the mind. What is the mind? Are yoiu confusing the mind with the brain? WHERE is the mind? WHERE is the soul? WHERE is the spirit? We know a lot about the brain,,,but nothing about the mind, soul and spirit except what God has taught and revealed to us.

The mind is actually part of the soul. I've posted this image before, but now seems like a good time again.



It states before the fall, but it's still the same. I don't really know what site the image comes from.

You said this above which is very true and cannot be denied:
our growth and experiences, mind and emotions all contribute to our development of personality and character traits and imprints upon our soul to make us a record of who we are and have become.

As to decisions,,,they are made in the soul (see the image).
Our spirit, communicating with God, helps our soul (mind) to make the right decisions based on what He would want.

Your last sentence related the soul to the world. I agree fully with this. Those that do NOT have the spirit activated and are in tune with God are slaves to the world system.

Great post.

 

[GodsGrace]

W
Not sure what ECF is so excuse my ignorance and enlighten me!
I am not debating our different theological perspective when I state the following, just throwing some light on how Reformeds view the statement, just believe.
If one believes, and the believing is given you from God, then it isn't something we do. We actually do the believing in our hearts and minds, it isn't done by osmosis, we do things the way God designed humans to function. And we do make a choice. I remember making it. It is what people do. Our faith isn't blind. We have heard the gospel and believe or not believe. In my OPINION we can't DECIDE we will believe something, we either do or don't.
In any case we really only differ on how the believing came about. And if you are right and I am wrong or the other way around, we believe. What we believe about how it happened doesn't change that it IS.

Hi R,
ECF means the Early Church Fathers.
Maybe there should be a thread on this....

I DO want you to know that I do understand the reformed faith.
I have found, however, that different persons understand this faith in differing ways....some don't really understand it at all from their remarks. Some are Calvinist and don't even know it.

And, yes, I do agree with your last two sentences.
What saddens me about reformed beliefs is that the nature of God is actually changed, and not for the better. But, yeah, maybe some other time....

 

[GodsGrace]

Understanding the Trichotomy (or dichotomy) of man helps us to understand our human nature and what it means to be saturated with the Word of God.

1. God's written or spoken Word may be taken in through your soul functions: i.e., mind, will and emotions -- by hearing, reading, studying or memorizing.

[the Word of God affects our mind, our emotions and our will, which make up the soul]

2. The ultimate purpose is to feed your spirit which was created in God's own image and longs to have that image of God fulfilled.
However, at this point, there are two interesting factors to consider:

A. Even if the Word of God, written or spoken, is rejected, it still has an effect on the soul and spirit.
Hebrews 4:12

B. When the Word of God, written or spoken, is accepted, it not only affects the spirit, but also helps to bring the soul function into meaning and balance.

God's Word not only enters from the external into the internal, but also Christ Himself, the Incarnate Living Word, living in the heart of every born-again Christian, finds expression and fulfillment as He lives His life through the spirit, the soul, and the body of every believer.



[as we can see, the Spirit of the person affects the soul, which is comprised of mind, emotions, will.]

source: Dynamics of Discipling
Arts Publications.

 

[Boaz]

Hi R,
ECF means the Early Church Fathers.
Maybe there should be a thread on this....

I DO want you to know that I do understand the reformed faith.
I have found, however, that different persons understand this faith in differing ways....some don't really understand it at all from their remarks. Some are Calvinist and don't even know it.

And, yes, I do agree with your last two sentences.
What saddens me about reformed beliefs is that the nature of God is actually changed, and not for the better. But, yeah, maybe some other time....

The Synod of Dirt convened in the Netherlands in November of 1618. It lasted six months, consisted of 84 members and 18 political delegates representing various countries. 154 sessions and a large number of other conferences, in which the free will of man and related doctrines were discussed. They rejected the five articles of the Arminian challenge and adopted TULIP. So what ECF'S are you referring to.

 

[Boaz]

The Synod of Dirt convened in the Netherlands in November of 1618. It lasted six months, consisted of 84 members and 18 political delegates representing various countries. 154 sessions and a large number of other conferences, in which the free will of man and related doctrines were discussed. They rejected the five articles of the Arminian challenge and adopted TULIP. So what ECF'S are you referring to.

auto correct Synod of Dort

 

[GodsGrace]

The Synod of Dirt convened in the Netherlands in November of 1618. It lasted six months, consisted of 84 members and 18 political delegates representing various countries. 154 sessions and a large number of other conferences, in which the free will of man and related doctrines were discussed. They rejected the five articles of the Arminian challenge and adopted TULIP. So what ECF'S are you referring to.

The ECFs are BEFORE 325 AD.

I might start a thread on this.
It's extremely important to know.
I'll tag you in....

 

[Boaz]

The ECFs are BEFORE 325 AD.

I might start a thread on this.
It's extremely important to know.
I'll tag you in....

Looking forward to it.

 

[daninthelionsden]

The ECFs are BEFORE 325 AD.

I might start a thread on this.
It's extremely important to know.
I'll tag you in....

There used to be a forum dedicated to trying to put Christianity back on the ECF track named PFRS (Pristine Faith Restoration Society). The forum is now defunct and the founder, including most posters, moved to the Berean Council forum. They too are real big into the early Church.

 

[GodsGrace]

There used to be a forum dedicated to trying to put Christianity back on the ECF track named PFRS (Pristine Faith Restoration Society). The forum is now defunct and the founder, including most posters, moved to the Berean Council forum. They too are real big into the early Church.

And is it any wonder?
Both the Protestant denominations and the CC have moved very far from how the first Christians were taught and believed.

It would stop all of the arguing over what's right and wrong because THEY AGREED!!