Bible Study "Under the Law"...Means...

[Jay T]

Romans 3:19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God".
Does anyone see that this Bible verse is saying that to be 'under the Law' means, to be guilty before God ?

QUESTION: When is a person guilty....
#1.) After, they have stolen something ?
#2.) Or, guilty because they ...have not...stolen anything ?

 

[Georges]

Romans 3:19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God".
Does anyone see that this Bible verse is saying that to be 'under the Law' means, to be guilty before God ?

On the surface yes....but....there is more to it than that....

That means that in the Torah Law the rules are written out....as in a court of Law......The Law was given to the Israelites...they accepted it....they are bound to it....

"Every mouth may be stopped" because the Law is in black and white.....how can you argue against it? The Law "Torah" gives a ruling on an event...that should be it....mouth shut.

If you transgress what is written in black and white and agreed to by the people....you are guilty. Contrary to what Paul usually teaches, in the case of "Torah Law", the guilty always have a means of becoming righteous again....

Now....who is espoused to the Law? Israel is, and anyone proselyting to Judaism.....that is who "all the world" in the verse....However, it can be argued that at Sinai, God gave the law to all people (Rabbi's do state this) when the thunders were heard....The Israelites were the only ones who agreed to the contract...



QUESTION: When is a person guilty....
#1.) After, they have stolen something ?

Yes...if the rules are in place and agreed to by society....

#2.) Or, guilty because they ...have not...stolen anything ?

If the act hasn't been committed they are not guilty....

 

[mutzrein]

Galatians 3:19-25

What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

 

[Jay T]

Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

I see.
Then, such Bible verse such as Romans 3:31..... 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law". ...can then, be taken out of the Bible ?

And, these one also..... Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified".

1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him".

But, I should stop here otherwise, I'll end up throwing out ...half the Bible.

 

[gingercat]

The New Testament is mostly about what we should be doing as Jesus' followers.

 

[mutzrein]

Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

I see.
Then, such Bible verse such as Romans 3:31..... 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law". ...can then, be taken out of the Bible ?

And, these one also..... Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified".

1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him".

But, I should stop here otherwise, I'll end up throwing out ...half the Bible.

Hey Jay T. All I have done is quote scripture. I haven’t added interpretation – just quoted it - so may I suggest that if you have a problem with what I have quoted, you had better make up your own mind as to which you would like to throw out. But maybe you need to find out what they mean and discover the harmony in them before you take such a drastic step.

 

[Free]

The whole book of Galatians utterly refutes the idea that Christians are under the law.

 

[Jay T]

The whole book of Galatians utterly refutes the idea that Christians are under the law.

Under the Law means a person is breaking any one of the 10 commandments.

True Christians keep all 10 commandments, just as Jesus Christ did.....and God identifies them, as HIS people (Revelation 14:12)

 

[Free]

Under the Law means a person is breaking any one of the 10 commandments.

No it doesn't Jay T.

 

[Jay T]

Under the Law means a person is breaking any one of the 10 commandments.

No it doesn't Jay T.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

 

[mutzrein]

Jay T. I'm having trouble with your reasoning. Whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law. You even quote that.

Now we (Christians, born of the Spirit of God) are not under the law. It is through the very Spirit that dwells within us that we are able to fulfil the law. And we do so by nature. This is what it means to be 'in the vine', which is Christ. We don't fulfil the law because 'it is written in the law' but because 'it is written in our hearts'. This is the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Jay T]

Jay T. I'm having trouble with your reasoning. Whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law. You even quote that.

Yes, I did.
Remember that the only purpose of the 10 commandments, is to show us what our sins are...'as the tutor to bring us to Christ'.
The Bible also says, 'that the Law is not made for a Righteous man'.....WHY ?
Because a Righteous man is already keeping the 10 commandments, and therefore cannot condemn him, because that person [is not] breaking any of the 10 commandments.
Revelation 14:12 tells us that the saints....keep the commandments of God (Revelation 14:12), and how do they do that ?
Because the verse goes on to say, that they have the faith of Jesus.

Now we (Christians, born of the Spirit of God) are not under the law.

The only Christian who is not...'under the Law' ...is the person who does not break any of the commandments, and the reason is is that they love Jesus Christ enough...to keep them all, just as Jesus said: "IF..you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15)

It is through the very Spirit that dwells within us that we are able to fulfil the law. And we do so by nature. This is what it means to be 'in the vine', which is Christ. We don't fulfil the law because 'it is written in the law' but because 'it is written in our hearts'. This is the fruit of the Spirit.

The New Covenant is God...putting HIS LAW ...into the Heart and minds of men.... Hebrews 8:10 "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people"
Without the New Covenant, NO ONE has God.

 

[Free]

Jay T,

mutzrein is correct. Romans 3:19 clearly states that the law is only for those who are under the law. Look at the rest of the passage to get a clear understanding of what is being said:

Rom. 3:19-24, "19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-- 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,"

And on it goes. And this all agrees with what Galatians states:

Gal. 3:1-5, "1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith--"

Gal. 3:23-26, "23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith."

Gal. 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

Paul clearly and unequivocally states that those who believe in Christ are no longer under the law. The law neither justifies or makes righteous. And just so that we are clear, there is only one law, not "this law" and "that law"; Paul makes no such distinction.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Paul clearly and unequivocally states that those who believe in Christ are no longer under the law. The law neither justifies or makes righteous. And just so that we are clear, there is only one law, not "this law" and "that law"; Paul makes no such distinction.

So why do we have to keep quoting Paul ...clearly and unequivocally? Was Paul God? Where are we told God revealed to Paul that the new criteria for salvation for Gentile Christians was NO criteria at all?

Since Paul seems to have become the patron saint for some people on this board ...let's take a look see at the following:

Did Paul have any other God?
Did Paul make himself idols?
Did Paul blaspheme the name of the Lord God?
Did Paul keep the Sabbath?
Did Paul honor his parents?
Did Paul commit murder?
Did Paul commit adultery?
Did Paul steal?
Did Paul give false testimony against his neighbor?
Did Paul covet his neighbor's house, wife, etc.?

Because Paul claimed to be a follower of Jesus, one would hope that the answers might be:

no
no
no
yes
yes
no
no
no
no
no

Is Paul a man who would be teaching others to go against - or to otherwise disregard - these moral standards of God? One would hope not.

 

[Jay T]

Paul clearly and unequivocally states that those who believe in Christ are no longer under the law. The law neither justifies or makes righteous. And just so that we are clear, there is only one law, not "this law" and "that law"; Paul makes no such distinction.

When Jesus Christ says to keep the commandments ...IF...one loves Him, does that imply a 'bad' thing ?
Was Jesus Christ a 'legalist' ?

I can never figure out these discussions concerning the law ...are we under the law?, are we not under the law? ... etc. Every Christian on this board would claim to be keeping God's commandments, whether they be written on tables of stone or written into the heart. NO ONE would ever take issue with the law were it not for the 4th-commandment and this is what it all comes down to ...plain and simply. Why do we keep playing these silly games?

The law of God in the sanctuary in heaven is the great original, of which the precepts inscribed upon the tables of stone and recorded by Moses in the Pentateuch were an unerring transcript.

Those who arrived at an understanding of this important point were thus led to see the sacred, unchanging character of the divine law. They saw, as never before, the force of the Saviour's words: "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law." Matthew 5:18.

The law of God, being a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, must forever endure, "as a faithful witness in heaven." Not one command has been annulled; not a jot or tittle has been changed. Says the psalmist: "Forever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven." "All His commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever." Psalms 119:89; 111:7, 8.

In the very bosom of the Decalogue is the fourth commandment, as it was first proclaimed: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:8-11.

The Spirit of God impressed the hearts of those students of His word.

The conviction was urged upon them that they had ignorantly transgressed this precept by disregarding the Creator's rest day.

They began to examine the reasons for observing the first day of the week instead of the day which God had sanctified. They could find no evidence in the Scriptures that the fourth commandment had been abolished, or that the Sabbath had been changed; the blessing which first hallowed the seventh day had never been removed.

They had been honestly seeking to know and to do God's will; now, as they saw themselves transgressors of His law, sorrow filled their hearts, and they manifested their loyalty to God by keeping His Sabbath holy (Ezekiel 20/20).

Many and earnest were the efforts made to overthrow their faith.

None could fail to see that if the earthly sanctuary was a figure or pattern of the heavenly, the law deposited in the ark on earth was an exact transcript of the law in the ark in heaven; and that an acceptance of the truth concerning the heavenly sanctuary involved an acknowledgment of the claims of God's law and the obligation of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment.

Here was the secret of the bitter and determined opposition to the harmonious exposition of the Scriptures that revealed the ministration of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary.

Men sought to close the door which God had opened, and to open the door which He had closed. But "He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth," had declared: "Behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it." Revelation 3:7, 8.

Christ had opened the door, or ministration, of the most holy place, light was shining from that open door of the sanctuary in heaven, and the fourth commandment was shown to be included in the law which is there enshrined; what God had established, no man could overthrow.


(Great Controversy Between Christ & satan, pg. 434)

 

[Free]

So why do we have to keep quoting Paul ...clearly and unequivocally? Was Paul God? Where are we told God revealed to Paul that the new criteria for salvation for Gentile Christians was NO criteria at all?

Who said there is criteria for salvation for Jews? Salvation for all is through faith in Christ alone. The fact remains that any believer is no longer under the law.

Gal 1:11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel.
Gal 1:12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

When Jesus Christ says to keep the commandments ...IF...one loves Him, does that imply a 'bad' thing ?
Was Jesus Christ a 'legalist' ?

Jesus said to keep "my" commandments, not "the" commandments. His reference was to the things he was teaching. Just what were the greatest commandments Jay T?

 

[SputnikBoy]

So why do we have to keep quoting Paul ...clearly and unequivocally? Was Paul God? Where are we told God revealed to Paul that the new criteria for salvation for Gentile Christians was NO criteria at all?

Who said there is criteria for salvation for Jews? Salvation for all is through faith in Christ alone. The fact remains that any believer is no longer under the law.

That's because keeping the law is a matter of course for the believer, plainly and simply. Faith devoid of 'good works' is no faith at all according to your man.

Gal 1:11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel.

The pastor of my church could say the same thing, could he not?

Gal 1:12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

So sayeth Paul.

Gal 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Who was Paul talking to? What particular issue was he addressing? Do we simply pluck out these texts and apply them to anything we want? I'm sure that Paul would NOT have had a problem with anyone who - without any fanfare - was abiding by the commandments of God. This message was evidently not intended for such a person.

When Jesus Christ says to keep the commandments ...IF...one loves Him, does that imply a 'bad' thing ?
Was Jesus Christ a 'legalist' ?

Jesus said to keep "my" commandments, not "the" commandments. His reference was to the things he was teaching. Just what were the greatest commandments Jay T?

To imply that Jesus was saying that the commandments of God should NOT be adhered to is foolhardy. Besides, the two 'new' commandments that Jesus gave were not new at all. The very same 'love your neighbor as yourself and love God with all your heart, soul, and mind' are OT teachings. Why did Jesus say that they were 'new', do you think?

 

[Biff]

Simply put -

"UNDER THE LAW" deals with anyone trying to EARN a salvation which cannot be earned by DOING something to earn it!

 

[SputnikBoy]

Simply put -

"UNDER THE LAW" deals with anyone trying to EARN a salvation which cannot be earned by DOING something to earn it!

As in legalsm ...right? Agreed. DOING or 'works', however, will be a natural consequence through one's faith in Jesus.

 

[Jay T]

Simply put -

"UNDER THE LAW" deals with anyone trying to EARN a salvation which cannot be earned by DOING something to earn it!

Sunday worship services is an example of being, 'under the law' ....as it is an attempt to gain God's favor, by doing works.
Sunday worship services is ....NOT....based on faith, as faith is gained by what is written in the Bible, and there is no Biblical support for Sunday observance.