Bible Study "Under the Law"...Means...

[Georges]

The answer.......It hasn't been fulfilled completely by Christ at this time...This will not happen (completion) until the end of the Messianic Kingdom period.

excellent point George. Jesus' mission for us is done but we still have to accept Him and follow Him for completion.

How do we accept and follow him? That's easy, well theoretically anyway, we accept him and follow him by trying to copy his example....

What was that? Jesus loved God and man in that he obeyed Torah. We should do the same as it applies to believing Gentiles....

Sorry Georges. I can't go along with this element of what you say. But don't let me dissuade you from what you believe is right for you before God.

Sorry you disagree...that's OK...although I don't reeally think you would completely disagree...

I must live my life 'as it were' in Christ.

Obeying Torah is living your life in Christ...emulation and imitation of how he lived his life. Couldn't be a better way of identifying yourself as a member of God's family.

I am part of the vine. And because I am in Christ (the vine) I bring forth the fruit of the vine. I don't do things to emulate fruit. It is fruit.

If you imitate/emulate Christ, you are "one with him", that is, you identify yourself with him. If you do not imitate/emulate Christ, you are not one with him. What is your purpose if you are "in Christ"? You do what he did (or strive to). That is to live as righteously as you can. The guidelines to do that are found in the Torah.

I don't do things BECAUSE they are the right things to do. I do them because it is natural for me to do them. They are a natural consequence of being in Christ.

You may be the only one I've ever met (personally or forumly) that thinks this way. Personally, I try to do the right thing because it is proper and right to act in love. Not because I have Christ in me, but because I wish to imitate him. To imply that you had only done "right things" since you came to Christ would be a little hard for me to believe. There are many people who act in love (do the right thing) who have never heard of Christ.

Now, "being in Christ", means you follow his example of "daily living". Christ did the "right thing" and loved his fellow man by following the requirements of the Torah...if you do that (follow Torah), you will be loving your fellow man, and doing the right thing.

 

[Georges]

So, in other words, you keep the commands of God as a consequence of belief in Jesus. So what are we arguing about then?

No, not in the sense that you are stating it I believe. For as long as I can remember I have believed in Jesus. But it wasn't until I was made a son of God and grew in faith that I understood what it means to be obedient to the Father.

Jesus said, "Everything I have learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last."

To remain in the vine, there are two absolute criteria:
Firstly: To acknowledge and grow in the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ Jesus to all who believe, and accept that there is no other justification before God other than that which has been freely given by grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Secondly: Jesus said, "if you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love."

Now if Jesus required for us to obey his commands, just as he obeyed the commands of his Father, we need to understand how Jesus received the commands of the Father, for it was certainly not through the written code.

Here is the crux of the problem....Mutz, your statement in bold above is not biblically founded. You are making a supposition....in other words, (My interpretation of your statement, or what you may be saying between the lines), "It can't be possible for Jesus to be commanding his disciples to obey the written Commandments (Torah) of his Father because that is the "Law that leads to Bondage", so it is obvious that there must be another set of Commands given to him (Jesus) by the Father, that supercedes the written Law of God (Torah).

The trouble with that is...the only one who supports that line of thought is perhaps the Paul of the Letters. None of the other disciples taught anything suggesting another set of Commandments other than the written Law.



Rather, the communication between Jesus and the Father was that of the Spirit, being the Spirit of God, the Spirit by which Jesus was born.

I personally think Jesus communicated with his Father in open conversation. And, Jesus didn't have the complete HS of God until he was baptized. That is when the Spirit decended on him.

And it is by this one and same Spirit that we receive the birth of our spirit, being the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But that is another story isn't it.

 

[Bob10]

servants of Righteousness - servants of the Law

"Being then made free from SIN, you became the servants of righteousness" (Romans 6:18).


What is righteousness: "all your Commandments are righteousness" (Psalms 119:172).



We came "servants of Righteousness" -- servants of the Law.


ANALOGY: someone paid our pile of parking tickets. The police, the law is no longer hunting us down, wanting paid. Someone paid the parking fines for us. What a gracious person he was: he got us out from under the law. He erased, blotted out our “finesâ€Â, our sins, our transgressions.

But that doesn't mean we should once again break the law and accumulate another pile of parking tickets (sins).


Shall we continue breaking the law (sin), because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid!

 

[John the Baptist]

Re: servants of Righteousness - servants of the Law

"Being then made free from SIN, you became the servants of righteousness" (Romans 6:18).


What is righteousness: "all your Commandments are righteousness" (Psalms 119:172).



We came "servants of Righteousness" -- servants of the Law.


ANALOGY: someone paid our pile of parking tickets. The police, the law is no longer hunting us down, wanting paid. Someone paid the parking fines for us. What a gracious person that was: he got us out from under the law.

But that doesn't mean we should once again break the law and accumulate another pile of parking tickets.


Shall we continue breaking the law (sin), because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid!

****
Very true Bob. And when the first ticket came perhaps Romans 8:14 applied real well? And then the second ticket came, and the third, then on until a pile prevailed? Do you suppose that the Holy Spirit could convict me more easily at the start or at the heap of open stuff, or at the end? (see James 1:15) Is it easier to steal the first time or the hundredth time?? See Psalm 19:13

Now add one more thought? Just say that I was one of the Hebrews 6:1-5 ones who had these Born Again positives traits. 'Made a Partaker of the Holy Ghost'. And now I have all of these openly seen offences. Not one or two, but many! (false known doctrine?) Now, why not just say to myself, I am under Grace, why pay these tickets? I feel great, I am Born Again!!

Yes, there is the Hebrews 6:6 verse following along as well. :

---John

 

[Jay T]

[And besides that, if the Jews to whom the law was given were unable to keep the law, what hope would a gentile like me have?

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
There is righteousness in Christ alone – not by keeping the law.[/quote]Only when a Christian realizes that it is thru the power of Jesus alone, that one can keep all 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17).....then one will have, the Righteousness of Christ.

 

[Bob10]

Jay T

....keep all 10 commandments

how true.

 

[John the Baptist]

OK: Agreed! :fadein:
But we need to be sure that every poster knows that a Born Again MOTIVE causes this DESIRE to serve Christ!
And this is a motive of Loving Christ!

---John

 

[CarrieY]

John,
Very true Bob. And when the first ticket came perhaps Romans 8:14 applied real well? And then the second ticket came, and the third, then on until a pile prevailed? Do you suppose that the Holy Spirit could convict me more easily at the start or at the heap of open stuff, or at the end? (see James 1:15) Is it easier to steal the first time or the hundredth time?? See Psalm 19:13

Now add one more thought? Just say that I was one of the Hebrews 6:1-5 ones who had these Born Again positives traits. 'Made a Partaker of the Holy Ghost'. And now I have all of these openly seen offences. Not one or two, but many! (false known doctrine?) Now, why not just say to myself, I am under Grace, why pay these tickets? I feel great, I am Born Again!!

Yes, there is the Hebrews 6:6 verse following along as well.

---John


I'm thinking if your accumalating a pile of Tickets your not "saved" or Born again. If your getting tickets and confess yourself to God your forgiven. No payment is necessary, as Jesus paid for all our tickets. I didn't know that at first when I began to go to Church. I was Catholic tho. I had to confess my sins to the priest then he'd forgive me then i had to do things to make up for my sins. you can't ever make anything up to God for your sins. (it insults him) I found that out later on from listening to the Christian channel. and i might've even apologized to God for offending him.

I'm not going to talk about myself to you, anymore, but I will tell you about a woman I met through Church, in her years of life, she was addicted to drugs. I'm not exactly sure how much she knew during her drug years, but I know she constantly cried out to Jesus, but yet still on drugs.
She'd spend her whole check on drugs and then cry out to God what she'd done again.this went on for a long time, and her husband would talk down to her, for doing this.
One day Jesus awnsered her prayers. And when I'd see her in Church I'd watch her sing and probably praying at the same time and crying.
Everyone is different. I feel your post was harsh and judgemental.
Noone can tell you how God sees you except God.
I think if your having such a problem as she was and you talk to God about your problem that he hears you without Judging you, even if it takes a very long time.
Hebrews 6 gets me stuck to. Isn't it so easy to think anyone who sins goes to hell? then we'd all be there. that's nearly what i see when I read Hebrews 6. but i think since it came up I hope to learn about the meaning of it .

Carrie

:smt060

 

[Bob10]

DEAD TO THE LAW

You, the real murderer, are in the bushes 100 yards away watching an innocent man being hung for a crime you committed.

When the innocent man is dead and buried, you can walk the streets a free man because the law and the lawmen aren't looking for anyone any more.

You now become dead to the law in the body of the innocent man.


For he that is "dead" is FREED - Rom 6:7


But the guilty guy that gets to go free better not commit any more crimes, or the law will be looking for him all over again.

 

[John the Baptist]

I feel your post was harsh and judgemental.
None can tell you how God sees you except God.
I think if your having such a problem as she was and you talk to God about your problem that he hears you without Judging you, even if it takes a very long time.
Hebrews 6 gets me stuck to. Isn't it so easy to think anyone who sins goes to hell? then we'd all be there. that's nearly what i see when I read Hebrews 6. but i think since it came up I hope to learn about the meaning of it .

Carrie

******
Hi,
as a ex/catholic you surely remember 1 John 5:16-17? Even though Rome has it all wrong, the 'Inspired' verse still states that there is a sin not unto death and there is a sin unto death.

A sin is sin, yet when done knowingly 'in presumption' it is leading down the pathway to an MATURE END! James 1:15. See David prayer in Psalm 19:13 for the 'Great Transgression' and how one arrives there.

And about my being 'harsh & judgemental'?? This Truth is the Everlasting Gospel of Christ. This is just how it is, it is not me talking of any individual person or trying to read ones mind! The ones of Hebrews 6:6 & 2 Peter 2:19-22 finds a whole host of failed doctrines exposed! And there is a 'huge' difference in a folds [known] long held false doctrine, and in a person in these folds not knowing any better, but are trying to do the very best that they know! See Revelation 17:5 & Revelation 18:4.

And yes, you are right, I do not know any persons mind, nor do I want to, but the doctrines that are satanic and go against the one that I love, I will expose to my dieing breath, God willing. Philipians 4:13

---John

 

[Jay T]

And yes, you are right,[/u] I do not know any persons mind, nor do I want to, but the doctrines that are satanic and go against the one that I love, I will expose to my dieing breath, God willing. Philipians 4:13

---John[/b]

'Sic em' John....LOL
No, seriously, I understand where you're coming from, even though I was never in a Catholic church, I've read too much of the history of that church.

And I know that their influence is still felt in all Sunday-keeping churches....as they carry so many of the RCC's docrtrines to this day.

 

[Jay T]

What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions....

Did you know that the Law of God was before...sin ?

Because without law, there is no such thing as sin !

The only purpose for the Law is to point out sin, not as a remedy for sin.
Christ is the only remedy.

The Gospel message, is to bring mankind back into harmony of the Law, thru the power of Jesus Christ (Romans 10:4).....
10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[Georges]

What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions....

Did you know that the Law of God was before...sin ?

Because without law, there is no such thing as sin !

The only purpose for the Law is to point out sin, not as a remedy for sin.
Christ is the only remedy.

Phooey....The purpose of the Law is to "Teach" righteousness and how to live righteously....not to point out sin...that's Pauline propaganda...

The Gospel message, is to bring mankind back into harmony of the Law, thru the power of Jesus Christ (Romans 10:4).....

You just contradicted yourself indirectely....Christ's purpose was to show us how to live righteously by obeying the Pure Torah sans man made law.

10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

not end...poor translation....the best translation "Goal". Christ showed us how to live it...that was his goal....

 

[R7-12]

If one does a careful study of the concepts and terms associated with the use of the word "law" it will become evident that the law that was added because of lawbreaking was the law of animal sacrifice.

The entire law of God or even just the so-called "moral law" cannot be what was added due to sin, for sin is the transgression of the law and therefore cannot precede it.

The sacrificial ordinances were added as a means for Israelites to deal with the problem of evil on a physical basis and to teach and discipline them as a tutor, schoolmaster, or guardian to bring them to understand concepts such as, mercy, accountability, forgiveness, sacrifice, sin, redemption, faith, and most importantly, the need for a perfect, permanent sacrifice to trust in such as what was prophesied concerning Messiah. Thus, Christ is the goal (end) of the (sacrificial) law for all who believe (Rom. 10:4).

To be under the law is to be under the sacrificial system in bondage to offering continual physical sacrifices and also in bondage to sin for the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin (Heb. 10:4).

We who trust in God completely are no longer under the law of animal sacrifice becasue we live by faith being lead by the Spirit into all truth and not by offering animals according to the Temple system which was our former teacher in the first covenant.

A careful and honest examination of all the relevant texts will lead to this conclusion.

Israel rejected Messiah as the lamb of God, preferring instead to depend upon the works of the law (offering sacrifices) in pursuit of righteousness in the law instead of pursuing the law through faith in Christ (his sacrifice). He thus became a stumbling stone to them (Rom. 9:30-31).

It is also helpful to note that the entire law of God was engraved on the two tablets of stone, thus when "the written code that was against us" is mentioned, it can be understood to refer specifically to the sacrificial code within the covenant engraved on stone (2 Cor. 3:5-18). A perusal of Exodus chapters 20 - 31:18 will bear this out.

The distinction between the rules concerning righteous conduct in the law and the law involving the shedding of blood for atonement must be properly understood.

Too many strangers who know not the law and are not yet weaned on thin milk try to teach others concerning the divine will of Almighty God.

This has lead to the antinomian anti-God doctrines foisted upon the masses for the past 1700+ years leading to destruction.

That's why we are now in the last 30 years of the wars of the end.

R7-12

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi, just a thought. :wink:
First off I don't agree with the post. :fadein:

But the main thing for now is something else that I wonder if you know about? That is that when you post chapter & verse for us to look up, if you will write them down in full, such as.. just say, Revelation 1:1, or what ever verse that you might want to include, then we can just click on the chapter & verse, and it will come up for us to read.

Perhaps you understand that, but it is a real help!

---John

 

[John the Baptist]

First off I call them what they are. The Everlasting Covenant of the Godhead! Hebrews 13:20 And the Word Everlasting Covenant is just that, ETERNAL with NO Starting point of time, that is part of the 'Everlasting GOSPEL' of Revelation 14:6 (first part of the verse) Again: ETERNAL! IMMORTAL as with the Godhead, no beginning!! (Eternal as in all directions)

Are they then before Moses?
Lets understand this once & for ETERNITY. (EVERLASTING ) In the New Covenant side of what some call a changing Godhead??? We 'see' that the Holy Spirit still has John Inspired to pen His Inspiration of what SIN IS. Also remember that John lived way on down into Revelation which is dated after 70 AD to around 96 AD. This is very important because it lets us remember the Lord's Words that the Holy Spirit would bring things to even 'our' remembrance when needed. The point being that if John did not quite see or understand 'Paul' for one, in his 'penmanship'? the Holy Spirit had plenty of time to have had John straighten it out!

So in 1 John 3:4 John (the Holy Spirit) still gives us the [ETERNAL] understanding of what sin is, and has 'always been, & always will be'! Again, no, Moses was not even around in Eternity!
"Whosoever comitteth sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the trangression of the law."

Bottom line: Sin started in heaven! Them came [mankind]. (ALL MANKIND)
We can read & see that God talked with the ones from Moses back to creation. And we can even read why He stoped talking to them, if we care to search it out? (see Exodus 20:19-20, just after God SPAKE ALL OF THESE COMMANDMENTS to them also! Exodus 20:1 More than ten? Come on now???)

God spake directly to Adam & Eve. God Spake directly to Cain in Genesis 4:7. Now: Did any of these perfectly created earthlings sin? Surely! Did the Holy Spirit lie in 1 John 3:4 in the definition of what sin is, or did John not know what ALL THE ETERNAL WORD OF THE GODHEAD SAYS?? God lie? Hardly!
So the Eternal Covenant is just that, an IMMORTAL TEN COMMANDMENT LAW OF LOVE.

All Eternity are governed by the Law of the Godhead. Other world's in the plural of the book of Heb.'s as well as all the angel's of heaven.
Even Abram before he became Abraham was told about the Lord's Gospel & Covenant [requirements]. Genesis 3:15 will be accepted by most as meaning the Lamb offering offered by Faith of the future Savior. Yet, their is much more! They sinned & had broken the Covenant also, and then needed the EVERLASTING GOSPEL! (and were any angels saved in this future FAITH?)

Back to Abram who is seen in Genesis 12:1-5. God spoke to him by a Voice. He talked with Him in verse one. We even see that he was a GENTILE SOUL WINNER in verse 5. And yes, surely Abram was still a Gentile here, huh? (see Romans 2:28-29 for a spiritual reality)
Yet the Holy Spirits Inspiration does not leave us in 'ignorance' to what all of the saved ones before Moses came on the scene KNEW & BELIEVED[/color]!

In Genesis 26:1-5 we see God speaking about why the Godhead choose Abram, who is here called Abraham. Yet, there can be NO misunderstanding as to when these INSPIRED WORDS APPLY!
"BECAUSE that Abraham [OBEYED MY VOICE] and [KEPT MY CHARGE, MY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUES, AND MY LAWS.]" v. 5

Just one more? Ok: In Revelation 22:8-9 we again 'see' that the 'unfallen' angels still have the Eternal Ten Commandment Covenant to go by! You read it & find out where the 'message' came from? See verse 9 again.
And in heaven's Throne Room we see that the Ark is also still seen there by the Faithful Born Again ones. Revelation 11:18-19, verse 18 even confirms the James 2:8-12 passage with the time of the dead being judged! Compare Ecclesiastes 12:13-14.

Yes, the Gospel of Christ & the Character of the Godhead are alike ETERNAL! 2 Corinthians 3:3, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:15-16. And there will not be any one saved that is found in opposition to the Law of God. Christ puts it very simple in understanding.. "IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS".

 

[mutzrein]

What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions....

Did you know that the Law of God was before...sin ?

Because without law, there is no such thing as sin !

The only purpose for the Law is to point out sin, not as a remedy for sin.
Christ is the only remedy.

The Gospel message, is to bring mankind back into harmony of the Law, thru the power of Jesus Christ (Romans 10:4).....
10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Goodness Jay T. This goes back a while - nearly three months. As I said then, all I was doing was quoting scripture. Are you disagreeing with scripture or . . . ?

 

[R7-12]

Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness [justification through faith in Christ’s blood], and seeking to establish their own righteousness (through animal blood), have not submitted to the righteousness of God [faith in Christ]. 4For Christ is the end [SGD 5056 telos – GOAL or PURPOSE] of the law for righteousness [sacrifice that takes away the offence] to everyone who believes [through faith]. 5For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things [sacrifices] shall live by them [become a living sacrifice - Rom. 12:1].†(Rom. 10:1-5)

For if what is passing away was glorious [1st covenant sacrificial system], what remains is much more glorious [Christ’s blood of the 2nd covenant]. 12Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech 13unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end [SGD 5056 telos – GOAL or PURPOSE] of what was passing away 2 Cor. 3:11-13).

Romans 10:4 says Christ was the goal or purpose of the sacrificial law for it pointed to him as the perfect sacrifice.

2 Cor. 11:13 says the children of Israel could not look steadily at the goal or purpose represented by what was passing away which shone through Moses’ face.

Consider what this is saying.

R7-12

 

[John the Baptist]

...

Goodness Jay T. This goes back a while - nearly three months. As I said then, all I was doing was quoting scripture. Are you disagreeing with scripture or . . . ?

*******
John here: Aw, but the Law has NO BEGINNING! :wink: So this old posts message belowe is always revelent, huh Mutz! God says so, there is 'Nothing New Under The Sun'! (Old as in ETERNAL COVENANT!)

evanman wrote:
Quote:
"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to Worship before Me, saith the Lord". Isaiah 66:22-23 K.J.


It clearly states that God is to be worshipped 7 days a week, not just one morning for a couple of hours.


John here:
Well, I see what your [post] is saying, (did you get that remark? I am replying to this post )
but in new Jerusalem there will no need of the sun (moon or whatever) and there will be no night [there]! See Revelation 21:23-25. Notice that it does say in verse 23 "And the city had no need of the sun..." So far one can see a problem with the verses given? "one Sabbath day to another ... and ..."

To clear this up for me at least, I see across the page in Isaiah 65:21-23 (The other verses are above in Isa.66 remember)
where I hopefully am included in this work of ...

"And they shall build houses, (s in the plural!) and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, ('s' again) and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days [my people], and [mine elect] shall long [enjoy the work of their hands]." And verse 25's last part Tel's us where this takes place! Isaiah 65:25's last part of the verse.

I suspect Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 will again be true! A perfect Adam & Eve were to have a country setting, & so will we have. And come Sabbath? I suspect that we will once again Worship God, but this time around we will do so in the City of New Jerusalem. It is a large city, yet the size will not take in the newly created earth, will it?

We do believe that when God created the earth in six days & then rested the seventh day, and He then Blessed it & Set it aside for Holy use, it must have meant that He had something in mind other than His usual business, right??? Surely God does not believe in us setting in our padded 'pews', seven days a week, does He? But perhaps you are right??? See Revelation 3:16-17? And the Commandment.. ['..six days shalt thou work..'] is to now be a New Thing??? I don't think so ! Again the Eccl. verse's.

 

[Jay T]

Galatians 3:19-25

What, then, was the purpose of the law?

The only purpose for the Law is to point out sin......

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
]Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.[/u][/quote]When no one commits sin anymore......then the purpose of the Law is to be no more.

BUT, as long as there is sin in the world, there must be a law to point out the wrong.

To say we no longer need the Law, is to say we are sinless !