Growth Understanding Baptism ?

[Jethro Bodine]

It is a wonder to me that some people insist that they are born again because they have "got the Spirit" and yet do not get water baptized in obedience to the command of their Lord and savior, Jesus Christ, who is the one who baptizes in the Spirit. (Mar 1:8) (I know of one lady who refused because it would ruin her hair-do!)

Funny thing is, you are one of the few that will agree with me in this forum in this point: Perhaps what you're not considering is the person who gets regenerated by his faith in Christ and receives the Spirit, but who then does not get water baptized is not evidence that they were not regenerated. It may well be evidence that they have departed from the faith that regenerated them and have become unregenerate.

And as far as the hair-do.....I never had the opportunity but I was going to talk to the woman in this thread resisting baptism about the person who really does genuinely believe and is saved but who doesn't want the inconvenience or possible embarrassment of getting submerged (runny mascara, wet clingy clothing, boogers...). I hardly put them automatically in the category of the person who isn't getting baptized as a result of losing the faith they started out in.

 

[turnorburn]

Water baptism is a public profession of ones faith in Jesus Christ, not necessary for salvation, else Gods word would have included it in this statement..

I Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus specifically stated that regeneration has two parts; being born or water and being born of Spirit.

The water Jesus is speaking about in John 3:5 is not the literal waters of baptism. It is a metonymy for 'repentance'. Water serves as the metonymy because the custom of the day was to be water baptized when one repented. Repentance and water baptism were synonymous with each other, so when you spoke of 'water' you were speaking of 'repentance'.

The point being, repentance most certainly is a prerequisite and requirement for entrance into the kingdom. Not because repentance has power to justify (make one righteous before God), but because it is the expected and obligatory reaction that accompanies being sorry for sin and wanting to be forgiven that sin.

John prepared the way for the spiritual part--faith in Christ--by bringing people to repentance about their disobedience and unbelief in the promises of God and water baptism was how you symbolically expressed that repentance. Thus the water part of Jesus' "water and the Spirit". Water signifying repentance and a sorrow over sin, the Spirit signifying faith in Christ: "21I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus." (Acts 20:21 NIV)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If only women knew that to get a good man* and have him melt in your hands, this is how you do it:

3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear." (1 Peter 3:3-6 NIV)

(*Made good by the grace of God, not by his own doing.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Whoops! Posted that in the wrong thread, lol!
How do I delete it? I don't see the delete link.

 

[turnorburn]

 

[JLB]

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” (ie: born a second time or "born again")
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

In his answer to Nicodemus, Jesus stated how one can be "born again", it is by being born of water and of Spirit.

Wrong again.
It is the Spirit that leads us and guides us into all truth.
That is why He is called the Spirit of truth, which is called the anointing.
This is the promise of the new covenant.

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Jeremiah 31:31-34

as Isaiah says -

All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children. Isaiah 54:13

Paul learned his teaching and Gospel from the Lord.

Whether the Lord teaches through the office of Teacher or Pastor, or directly by His Spirit, it is His annointing that opens our eyes to see.[/QUOTE]

All that is is true and has absolutely nothing to do with being "born again."

Have a nice day.

iakov the fool
[/QUOTE]

The scripture you quoted does not say born again of water.

It says one must be born of water and born of the Spirit.

Not born again of water.... Born of water.

Born of water is the first time we are born, which is a reference to natural child birth.

Born again is born of the Spirit.

The next verse confirms.

That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born of water - born flesh.

Born again - born of the Spirit.


Being Bapttised in water comes after being born again.

JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

The water Jesus is speaking about in John 3:5 is not the literal waters of baptism. It is a metonymy for 'repentance'.

That was not Paul's understanding.

 

[Jim Parker]

Water baptism is a public profession of ones faith in Jesus Christ,

There is no scriptural basis for that notion. And, during the persecutions of the early church, many baptisms were don in secret.

not necessary for salvation,

Unless obedience to God is unnecessary for salvation, that cannot be correct as Jesus commanded that all believers be baptized. (Mat 28:19)

else Gods word would have included it in this statement.. I Corinthians 1:17......

You have taken that one verse out of context. It in no manner whatsoever negates Jesus' command that all believers obey Him (Luk 6:46) and be baptized. (Mat 28:19)

Paul preceded that statement with:
Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.”

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. (1Co 1:10-16 NKJV)

Paul was writing about the division in the church, not about whether or not baptism is necessary.


iakov the fool

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

There is no scriptural basis for that notion. And, during the persecutions of the early church, many baptisms were don in secret.



Unless obedience to God is unnecessary for salvation, that cannot be correct as Jesus commanded that all believers be baptized. (Mat 28:19)



You have taken that one verse out of context. It in no manner whatsoever negates Jesus' command that all believers obey Him (Luk 6:46) and be baptized. (Mat 28:19)

Paul preceded that statement with:
Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.”

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. (1Co 1:10-16 NKJV)

Paul was writing about the division in the church, not about whether or not baptism is necessary.


iakov the fool

Water baptism has always been a public profession of one's faith.
Read
Acts 10:44-48.
The problem you are having is children being sprinkled (water) baptised and they are too young to profess their faith which is why that is unbiblical.
We should do it the right way as adults showing the world that we give our lives to Jesus Christ.
Have you been baptised as an adult?
Maybe the time has come.
Are you ready?

Also, you misinterpret Matthew 28:19.
He tells us what to do but does not state that the water baptism is necessary for salvation.
That is something that you have added.

Yes, the Apostle Paul talks a lot about baptism but never says it is a need or a reason we are saved.
Paul misunderstood by so many.

 

[turnorburn]

That's your perception. I am promoting what the Bible says. That's why I post the scripture that supports my understanding.



The first "denomination" was the party of the Pharisees. Act 15:5



That is an offensive comment for a Christian to make.

Have you ever heard of Oliver Cromwell?



Don't think I think any such nonsense.



That is utter nonsense. The RCC has absolutely no control outside the RCC.



I control nothing and I'm not a Roman Catholic.

It's been unpleasant talking with you.

An offensive comment you say? Have a look at this..

John 16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Then have a look at this...

http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That was not Paul's understanding.

That's how you see Paul's understanding. Just as my argument, based on the whole counsel of the scriptures, is how I see Paul's understanding. You are reading baptism in Romans 6:3-4 as water baptism. But water has no power to baptize someone into death. Union with Christ by the Holy Spirit is what does that.

Paul plainly speaks of being baptized 'into Christ' as that which slays the old nature and brings us into the life of the new. 'Into Christ' does that, not 'into water'. The best argument you can muster is that 'into Christ' via the Holy Spirit happens at water baptism, but we know, scripturally, that simply is not a hard and fast rule that God follows.

 

[Jim Parker]

The problem you are having is children being sprinkled (water) baptised and they are too young to profess their faith which is why that is unbiblical.

I am having no problem. There is nothing in the Bible that states that anyone has to profess their faith in order to be baptized. The Bible is silent on the issue. The notion of the necessity of a profession of faith prior to baptism is a relatively modern one. (Past 500 years) But the practice of baptism dates from at least the early 2nd century, and, with the Baptism of Origen, no more than 80 years from the death of the last apostle. That is a very strong indication that infant baptism was already a standard practice in the church and had been for some time. That "reformers" decided to discard that practice based on the assumption that they knew better than the ancient church, is not a sound basis on which to build one's theology of baptism.

Acts 2:38-39 ~ "And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.'"

We should do it the right way as adults showing the world that we give our lives to Jesus Christ.

That is your opinion of the "right way" and your entire life should be a testimony the world that you are Christ's. (Mat 5:16)

Also, you misinterpret Matthew 28:19.

He tells us what to do but does not state that the water baptism is necessary for salvation.
That is something that you have added.

If you refuse to do what Jesus commands you to do then He is not your Lord and you are not saved.

Yes, the Apostle Paul talks a lot about baptism but never says it is a need or a reason we are saved.

Paul, writing about 30 years before John, stated that in baptism you die and are raised from death to new life. That's being "born again" (dying and getting a new life) of water. Paul had checked with John, Peter and James to make sure he had his Gospel right (Gal 2) so it is highly unlikely that John, writing his gospel, was not aware of what Paul taught about baptism.
John, writing about 30 years later, reported in his gospel that Jesus said that one needs to be born of water to enter the kingdom of God. Entering the kingdom of God is being saved.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hey Jethro, do
"The Path of the Enlightened Ones" teach this stuff?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hey Parker, I just put a nice Christmas song on in the Popular Culture forum.
I welcome you to take a listen.
Merry Christmas!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hey Jethro, do
"The Path of the Enlightened Ones" teach this stuff?

I don't know I'll have to check.

 

[reba]

enough... closed for clean up