Growth Understanding Baptism ?

[Douglas Summers]

Yet John,opened the same letter you quoted by referring the readers to what they had been taught, not what they discerned by their "anointing."

1Jo 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. (NKJV)

Paul as well told Timothy; "And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also". (2Ti 2:2)

So the "bottom line", according to John and Paul, is not the individual's "anointing", it is the apostolic teaching passed from generation to generation by "faithful men."

It is not the "anointing" of the individual that is the arbiter of truth; it is the Church which is the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1Ti 3:15)



The evidence provided by observing the results of people's assumption that they have the anointing to discern the truth is the multitude of heresies, winds of doctrine, and the great calamity of the extensive fracturing of the body of Christ into tens of thousands of factions and sects each one of which claims that it alone has the truly true truth and the whole truth and nothing but the truth because it has "the anointing." And every one of the sects was founded by someone who had the arrogance to assume that he had the "anointing" and knew better than the Church which Jesus founded.

It would be laughable were it not so sad a state of affairs; the house of God so irreparably separated against itself that the pagan world sees it as irrelevant.

Considering the tens of thousands of opinions reflected by the multitude of factions, each assuming that they have the anointing to discern the truth, I find your argument less than convincing convincing.

But everyone has a nose, two eyes, two ears, and at least one opinion.

iakov the fool

Jim, You have to study the whole epistle. John said that it is the anointing that teaches you...not man. (1 John 2: 26-27) That is not heresies. It is the word of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yet John,opened the same letter you quoted by referring the readers to what they had been taught, not what they discerned by their "anointing."

1Jo 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. (NKJV)

Paul as well told Timothy; "And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also". (2Ti 2:2)

So the "bottom line", according to John and Paul, is not the individual's "anointing", it is the apostolic teaching passed from generation to generation by "faithful men."

It is not the "anointing" of the individual that is the arbiter of truth; it is the Church which is the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1Ti 3:15)

Problem....you're calling people the anointing. Read carefully. The passage defies any suggestion that the anointing is the leadership of the church:

"26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him." (1 John 2:26-27 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, are you implying that you are endued with the power of the Holy Spirit to know what you're talking about but that I am not?

I'm not implying anything. What I'm plainly saying is every true believer has the anointing of the Holy Spirit to discern what is truth and what is not. John says you don't need someone to stand in the gap and tell you what you hear is truth, and what is not. Read it:

"...you do not need anyone to teach you." (1 John 2:27 NASB)

But you're saying the passage is saying we DO need someone to tell us what we hear is truth, or is not. John says I DON'T need anyone to do that for me. I don't need a so-called teacher telling me what it is that I hear is truth or is not truth. Read it.

But don't confuse that with needing a teacher to tell you the truth. What we don't need is someone telling us what is truth and what is not truth. Understand the difference? The Catholic Church is all about the latter. The Protestant Reformation paved the way for the former. And thank God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

factions and sects each one of which claims that it alone has the truly true truth and the whole truth and nothing but the truth because it has "the anointing."

And of course the Catholic Church is not among them. They are different. They do not do that.

 

[eddif]

While that's certainly true, you had it right the first time too. I was thinking of this when I read your post:
"18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth" (James 1:18 NIV)

The word in its totality became flesh in the form of Jesus Christ. When we share in his death buriel and resurrection our ground is changed. At that point individual scriptures begin to flourish in our born again state In our gifted areas. Revelation 3:20

The mind area benefits in a similar way. Heart and mind.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Sadly your personal unfounded judgment of me "messed up in the flesh but alive in Christ Jesus" says more of you than of me, and totally misses the point of my post (which is scriptural by the way). If you go back and read all my posts you will see they are all word based and not filled with much "private interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20)....as for your closing personal implication "Most do not see Romans 7:25 like your post seems to" is bizzare at best since I nowhere said anything about Romans 7:25.

All living people (even the saved like Paul) will wrestle with the flesh and the strongholds we habitually formed there until the day of redemption. By the Holy Spirit and the word, because of what Christ accomplished on the cross and by His resurrection, we have been graced to slowly grow in our new being more and more into the image of Christ (that is if we truly have been born from above).

Whereas before the new birth sin was our life style (we did not even consider it sin but fun or pleasure or getting over or whatever). After, for those genuinely born from above, sin eventually becomes the rare and ever more rare exception (for which forgiveness extends to cover - 1 John 1:9) we are instantly aware of and disappointed about these rare occasions of sin (which disappointment and contrition would only happen before salvation if one were caught)....when we pray we KNOW we are forgiven and cleansed and strive to do better and better with His help.

So I have no idea of what you are talking about here....I rebuke your unfounded accusations, and remind you that the general topic is "Understanding Baptism"....

Peace be unto you

I intended what I said as a compliment. Some where it went wrong. Sorry.

eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It would be laughable were it not so sad a state of affairs; the house of God so irreparably separated against itself that the pagan world sees it as irrelevant.

Considering the tens of thousands of opinions reflected by the multitude of factions, each assuming that they have the anointing to discern the truth, I find your argument less than convincing convincing.

You're doing it again.
You're assuming that the true Church of Christ is damaged because of this worldly pollution. All believers are united as one in the Holy Spirit. God did that, not man. Satan did not win. He can not win. The gates of Hades will never overcome the church. But you may never see this and experience it for yourself first hand within the major denominations of the world--what I call the church of the world, which includes the Catholic Church, by the way.

When I got born again and met the Holy Spirit I suddenly had eyes to see the spiritual world and all the people in it that had existed and was flourishing all around me all along, but which I could not see before because I was not born again and had no part of it, and had eyes blocked from seeing it. I was amazed. Before that I could only see the church of the world, and it was pathetic. But to my amazement the true church of God did exist and it was quite healthy and well and prospering according to God's plan (and Jesus' prayers). But if someone is going to try to find it encased in the walls of a denomination they are going to miss it. They have to understand that the true church and kingdom of God on earth is the hearts and minds of those who see and experience God despite the 'church', and whose denomination is the Bible itself and who, with humble hearts, use their God given anointing to discern it's truths. It is with these people that the fellowship of the saints in the unity of the Spirit is accomplished. It's a wonderful thing. That doesn't happen in the pomp and circumstance of our cold dead religions.

 

[JLB]

Oi gevalt!

Then the apostle Paul was a heretic because that is exactly what he taught.

Please share the scripture whereby Paul taught regeneration at water baptism.


JLB

 

[JLB]

No. That is what the word "again" implies. The "water" of the first natural birth is replaced by the water of the rebirth in baptism. That is born "again" of water.

No such scripture that says "born again of water".


JLB

It is not the "anointing" of the individual that is the arbiter of truth; it is the Church which is the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1Ti 3:15)

Wrong again.

It is the Spirit that leads us and guides us into all truth.

That is why He is called the Spirit of truth, which is called the anointing.


This is the promise of the new covenant.

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Jeremiah 31:31-34


as Isaiah says -

All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children. Isaiah 54:13


Paul learned his teaching and Gospel from the Lord.

Whether the Lord teaches through the office of Teacher or Pastor, or directly by His Spirit, it is His annointing that opens our eyes to see.


JLB

 

[eddif]

Problem....you're calling people the anointing. Read carefully. The passage defies any suggestion that the anointing is the leadership of the church:

"26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him." (1 John 2:26-27 NASB)

I am having a few rough days. So do not look on this as an attack.

II Timothy 1:6
Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

Tied with.
Hebrews 6:4 KJV
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put himto an open shame.

My point::
Person # 1
Repented but not received Christ Jesus (instructed to, but just not there yet). Probably has limited discernment.

Person #2:
Repented and accepted Christ jesus (but may have been told Holy Spirit baptism is not for today). The Holy Spirit leads into all truth. I would call him truly saved.

Person #3
some sort of intermediate person I can't define.

Person #4
Person who has received everything listed above. This person does not need outside help. Is he seperate from the Body of Christ? No. Might he need help sometimes? Yes. He may need encouragement to achieve his calling.

To have something prophetically is not to have it totally operating. To tell someone who has not struggled; (you got it all). Well have they in a complete sense of scripture?

Some may think they have arrived (and they may well be on their way), but have not strengthened (allowed the inner working of God) themselves.

Receive all aspects of baptism Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am having a few rough days. So do not look on this as an attack.

II Timothy 1:6
Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

Tied with.
Hebrews 6:4 KJV
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put himto an open shame.

My point::
Person # 1
Repented but not received Christ Jesus (instructed to, but just not there yet). Probably has limited discernment.

Person #2:
Repented and accepted Christ jesus (but may have been told Holy Spirit baptism is not for today). The Holy Spirit leads into all truth. I would call him truly saved.

Person #3
some sort of intermediate person I can't define.

Person #4
Person who has received everything listed above. This person does not need outside help. Is he seperate from the Body of Christ? No. Might he need help sometimes? Yes. He may need encouragement to achieve his calling.

To have something prophetically is not to have it totally operating. To tell someone who has not struggled; (you got it all). Well have they in a complete sense of scripture?

Some may think they have arrived (and they may well be on their way), but have not strengthened (allowed the inner working of God) themselves.

Receive all aspects of baptism Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

eddif

You are illustrating the common thinking about when and if salvation occurs in people. After many years I realized the person that gets left out of this popular church thinking is the person who has faith, and is saved by that faith, but who has a weak faith.

They were saved by their weak faith (proven by their spiritual gift), but that faith being weak because of lack of depth and moisture to nurture it, they do not grow and prosper well and may even die out altogether when the water starts drying up and hard times come. Their roots don't reach down far enough to sustain the life they have. So, as a result they dry up and die. This person with weak faith is illustrated by Jesus in the parable of the sower:

"6“Other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture.
13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:6,13 NASB bold mine)

So instead of the church recognizing the weak believer who really is saved but who struggles and then dies in the struggle, they have concluded the believer who struggles and fails was never saved to begin with. Not only does this not match with scripture, but it also does not match the observable facts. There are lots of people who start out in Christ and are saved but who simply do not finish in Christ.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I am having a few rough days. So do not look on this as an attack.

II Timothy 1:6
Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

Tied with.
Hebrews 6:4 KJV
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put himto an open shame.

My point::
Person # 1
Repented but not received Christ Jesus (instructed to, but just not there yet). Probably has limited discernment.

Person #2:
Repented and accepted Christ jesus (but may have been told Holy Spirit baptism is not for today). The Holy Spirit leads into all truth. I would call him truly saved.

Person #3
some sort of intermediate person I can't define.

Person #4
Person who has received everything listed above. This person does not need outside help. Is he seperate from the Body of Christ? No. Might he need help sometimes? Yes. He may need encouragement to achieve his calling.

To have something prophetically is not to have it totally operating. To tell someone who has not struggled; (you got it all). Well have they in a complete sense of scripture?

Some may think they have arrived (and they may well be on their way), but have not strengthened (allowed the inner working of God) themselves.

Receive all aspects of baptism Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

eddif

What Paul, Peter and John are doing when they say, follow me as an example, or remember the things I told you, have to do with supporting and exhorting the brethren because of the weakness of the flesh or weariness of the mind and spirit. They are imparting Spiritual victory to the body that it might share in all things achieved as a united body, not as a foot or an ear or hand. For the body is not as you see the visible church, each one having it's own agenda apart from the others, but one united body working together. While one may achieve Spiritual victory, then all of the body should feel the victory. For the body is unified in glorifying Christ, not self. (Rom. 1: 10-12) Romans Chapter 16, . All Scripture is given by the inspiration of God....no matter who uses it or reproves it, it is of God...not man. for who so ever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved....(Rom. 10: 14-17) But for the rest of your posting, I have not found that taught in Scripture?

 

[Jim Parker]

Please share the scripture whereby Paul taught regeneration at water baptism.
JLB

I have done so repeatedly.

But, since you ask, I'll post it again.

Rom 6:3-9
3 ... as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death,
that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death,
certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more.
Death no longer has dominion over Him.

In baptism:
A - We die with Christ having been united with him in his death
B - We are buried with Christ
C - As Christ was raised, We are also raised to new life, united with Christ
D - Our old man was crucified with Christ
E - Our body of sin, by which we were enslaved to sin, has been put to death
F - Since we died with Christ we also live with him
G - AS with Christ, death has no power over us in our new life

So, in baptism we die to sin, being united to Christ in his death and we are born again to new, life that is no longer subject to death.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

No such scripture that says "born again of water".

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” (ie: born a second time or "born again")
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

In his answer to Nicodemus, Jesus stated how one can be "born again", it is by being born of water and of Spirit.

[/QUOTE] Wrong again.
It is the Spirit that leads us and guides us into all truth.
That is why He is called the Spirit of truth, which is called the anointing.
This is the promise of the new covenant.

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Jeremiah 31:31-34

as Isaiah says -

All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children. Isaiah 54:13

Paul learned his teaching and Gospel from the Lord.

Whether the Lord teaches through the office of Teacher or Pastor, or directly by His Spirit, it is His annointing that opens our eyes to see.[/QUOTE]

All that is is true and has absolutely nothing to do with being "born again."

Have a nice day.

iakov the fool

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have done so repeatedly.

But, since you ask, I'll post it again.

Rom 6:3-9
3 ... as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death,
that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death,
certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more.
Death no longer has dominion over Him.

In baptism:
A - We die with Christ having been united with him in his death
B - We are buried with Christ
C - As Christ was raised, We are also raised to new life, united with Christ
D - Our old man was crucified with Christ
E - Our body of sin, by which we were enslaved to sin, has been put to death
F - Since we died with Christ we also live with him
G - AS with Christ, death has no power over us in our new life

So, in baptism we die to sin, being united to Christ in his death and we are born again to new, life that is no longer subject to death.

iakov the fool

I was regenerated before my water baptism. The Holy Spirit is the agent of regeneration, not water. And, yes, I know, you prolly want to argue that one doesn't get the Holy Spirit until water baptism (some Protestants do too). But Cornelius and his household show us that is simply not true. And it certainly was not true in my case either. In fact, I only know of two Christians, if I remember correctly, that said they received the Holy Spirit at their water Baptism, not before. The Spirit is the very evidence and guarantee of salvation:

"...if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" (Romans 8:11 NASB).

"21Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." (2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NASB)

If you have the Spirit you are born again and have the promise of salvation. Many, many people get the Spirit before they are water baptized.

 

[eddif]

I Corinthians 3:6
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Do we look at the planters and those who watered to see if they were giving the seed and water they needed. I am not just looking at the ground (person), or even just the condition of the soil (life of person). When Jesus is the planter I could / can make the person hearing accountable. When it may be my failure to allow Holy Spirit to teach, then it is our fault.

eddif

 

[Jim Parker]

You're assuming that the true Church of Christ is damaged because of this worldly pollution. All believers are united as one in the Holy Spirit.

They are not united if they are fighting, insulting, mocking and otherwise reviling one another.

God did that, not man.

God divided his own house against itself after specifically stating that such division would cause the house to fall? I don't think so. That division arises from men's sinful arrogance and rebellion. (IMHO)

The gates of Hades will never overcome the church.

That's not "overcome" (gates don't overcome); it's "prevail." The gates of hell will not be able to resist the assault of the church.

Gates were heavily fortified and defended in the ancient world of walled cities because gates were the weakest points in the walls. It is not the church that is assaulted by hell's gates; it is the gates of hell that are assaulted and which will not withstand (prevail against) the assault of the church as she breaks them down and rescues those who had held captive to sin and death.

When I got born again and met the Holy Spirit....

That's good. Being filled with the Holy Spirit is one part of being born again according to Jesus. The other part is being born of water in baptism. (Jn 3:5)

They have to understand that the true church and kingdom of God on earth is the hearts and minds of those who see and experience God despite the 'church', and whose denomination is the Bible itself and who, with humble hearts, use their God given anointing to discern it's truths.

God's kingdom is truly found in the people of every denomination.

But it is not the Bible which is the pillar and foundation of the truth, it is the Church. (1Ti 3:15) When Paul made that statement there was only one church without and denominations.

It is my perspective that those groups which separated themselves from that one church and the teachings of that one church, also separated themselves from the "pillar and foundation of truth", which is the teaching of that early, one church. Having severed that connection, they were left with the scriptures and their personal opinions as to what those scriptures teach rather than the teaching of the apostles.

That is not to say that they are outside the kingdom of God, but that they have rejected a significant part of what God has provided; the apostolic tradition of the early church. The very word, "tradition" has acquired a negative connotation among those separated churches yet that is not what their "Sola Scriptura" says.

1CO 11:2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything, and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

2TH 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

2TH 3:6 Now we command you, beloved, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from believers who are living in idleness and not according to the tradition that they received from us.

But, I agree that there is only one body of Christ made up of Spirit filled believers.

iakov the fool

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I Corinthians 3:6
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Do we look at the planters and those who watered to see if they were giving the seed and water they needed. I am not just looking at the ground (person), or even just the condition of the soil (life of person). When Jesus is the planter I could / can make the person hearing accountable. When it may be my failure to allow Holy Spirit to teach, then it is our fault.

eddif

Yes, people are just instruments. And the point that Parker doesn't seem to be getting is we don't swallow something as truth simply because it came through a supposedly authorized person who tells you what he says is the truth. We accept it as truth, or not, according to the anointing we have been given by God to do determine that.

Truth is not determined by the degree, or the authority, or the insistence of the person speaking it. It is determined by the witness of the Spirit in a person. That is the power God gave to all of his people in this New Covenant so that they are no longer at the mercy of leaders to determine for them what is truth and what is not. It is in that way that God has rescued us from the wolves and fattened sheep that scatter and devour his flock and who Lord it over them:

"20Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD to them, “Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21“Because you push with side and with shoulder, and thrust at all the weak with your horns until you have scattered them abroad, 22therefore, I will deliver My flock, and they will no longer be a prey; and I will judge between one sheep and another.

23“Then I will set over them one shepherd, My servant David, and he will feed them; he will feed them himself and be their shepherd. 24“And I, the LORD, will be their God, and My servant David will be prince among them; I the LORD have spoken.

25“I will make a covenant of peace with them and eliminate harmful beasts from the land so that they may live securely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26“I will make them and the places around My hill a blessing. And I will cause showers to come down in their season; they will be showers of blessing. 27“Also the tree of the field will yield its fruit and the earth will yield its increase, and they will be secure on their land. Then they will know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bars of their yoke and have delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. 28“They will no longer be a prey to the nations, and the beasts of the earth will not devour them; but they will live securely, and no one will make them afraid." (Ezekiel 34:20-28 NASB)

The whole chapter is worth the read. I can rarely read it without tearing up. This time has been no exception.

 

[Jim Parker]

I was regenerated before my water baptism. The Holy Spirit is the agent of regeneration, not water.

Yes, God is indeed the agent of regeneration. And He said to be regenerated in water and spirit. Jesus specifically stated that regeneration has two parts; being born or water and being born of Spirit. Your experience, which is a quite common one by the way, does not negate anything which Jesus stated included the necessity of being born of water in baptism.

It is a wonder to me that some people insist that they are born again because they have "got the Spirit" and yet do not get water baptized in obedience to the command of their Lord and savior, Jesus Christ, who is the one who baptizes in the Spirit. (Mar 1:8) (I know of one lady who refused because it would ruin her hair-do!)

Your argument is not with me, it is with Jesus.

iakov the fool

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They are not united if they are fighting, insulting, mocking and otherwise reviling one another.

The true church is not united in peace when they do that, not no longer united in the Spirit (Ephesians 4:3). There are those of us who know you can still be united in the love and comfort and joy of the Lord by the Holy Spirit and not be in exact doctrinal agreement.

As I say, you will be hard pressed to experience this in the church of the world. They are all about doctrines and procedures and ceremonies, not the love and joy of the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. People think just because they went down to the local Catholic or Presbyterian Church, with whom they agree, that they have that. Hardly true at all.