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Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin

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Mungo

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Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin

Although the Perpetual Virginity of Mary has never been formally proclaimed as a Marian Dogma of the Catholic Church, because of its universal acceptance and continued reference to it in Papal documents throughout the history of the Catholic Church (and at the 5th Ecumenical council), it has come to be accepted as a Marian Dogma. Consequently, it can be said that the perpetual virginity of Mary is a Catholic Dogma by virtue of the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

It was also accepted by the Orthodox and by the early "reformers".

Martin Luther:
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin....Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Weimer, The Works of Luther, English Transl. by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11,pp. 319-320; v. 6 p. 510.)

"Christ...was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him..."brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39.)

"He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb...This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." (Ibid.)


John Calvin:
"There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest that from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company....And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562.)

Ulrich Zwingli:
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary....Christ...was born of a most undefiled Virgin." (Stakemeier, E. in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K., ed., Rome, 1962, p. 456.)

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., v. 1, p. 424.)


The next post will start the arguments for Mary's perpetual virginity. There are 6 of them.
 
BIBLICAL-MARY-CATHOLIC-VS-PROTESTANT-MARY.jpg
This is very misleading and the Bible Mary is not the Mary of the Bible. First, look at "Mother of the Church"--that is not a biblical reference. Secondly, "You will know her by her fruit" and referencing Matt 7:15--"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves"--makes her out to be a false prophet and a wolf in sheep's clothing. Regardless, Matt 7:16 applies to everyone, not just Mary, so the reference is pointless.

Thirdly, there is no reference in the Bible that anyone deceased believer prays for anyone. Regardless, Heb 12:1 and James 5:16 applies to every believer, so again, the reference is pointless. Fourthly, to say that "At the moment of conception preserved free from all stain of original sin," is not only not biblical, it is borderline (at best) idolatrous. And, once again, there is a non-biblical reference.

Fifthly, to say that she is "In Heaven," goes without saying, since that applies to all deceased believers and, again, is pointless. The unbiblical reference is unnecessary and, by definition, has nothing to do with "Bible Mary." Sixth, the only way to say that she is (unbiblically) "The Mother of the Church," is, again, to provide a non-biblical reference. Seventh, to say that she is a "Perpetual Virgin" is unbiblical as there is no support for this in the Bible. Luke 1:34 states that she "was" a virgin, which no true Christian disagrees with. Luke 2:41-51 has absolutely nothing to do with Mary being a virgin, never mind a perpetual one.

Eighth, Gen 3:15 has absolutely nothing to do with Mary. Ninth, Prov 31:30 has to do with all such women, and, once again, becomes a pointless reference to Mary. John 6:41 and Heb 9:4 have nothing to do with Mary, although the idea of her being the "Ark of the New Covenant" is interesting.

So many of those Scriptural references are a massive stretch, to say the least. All the above strongly suggests that the "Bible Mary" is based largely on reading into the text extra-biblical ideas about Mary, which is a very, very bad thing to do.
 
What I do want to say is that I do not believe Mary was a sinner like we are.
I'd venture to state that God would not place His Son in a body that contained the sin nature.
It's just unthinkable to me. I believe Mary was saved and I'd go so far as to agree with the Catholic Church that she most probably was conceived without the sin nature.
None of that is supported by scripture.
Mary was favored by God, but was not sinless.
Ecclesiastes 7:20, Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23, John 1:8 all show that Mary was a sinner like everyone else and needed Jesus to save her just like everyone else.
 
Mary was and remained a virgin, until after the birth of Jesus....she knew not Joseph until after the birth of Jesus.
After that she got busy.....they had at least 6 other children, scripture leaves no doubt on this.
Mary had normal sexual activity with Joseph. Looks like quite a bit as a matter of fact.

Nothing wrong with that. It is a scriptural command.
 
Mary and Joseph were pledged together in Engagement, he thought she cheated on him and commited sin by sleeping around unmarried and was going to stone her, but not in public disgrace for everyine to see, and the angel said to him don't be afraid to take her as your wife, she did not cheat on you or sleep with any man, and they got married, and he did not know her and have relations with her until Jesus was born.

She was a Virgin who gave birth to her firstborn son as scripture says.
 
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I think Joespeh and Mary were in some agreed arranged marriage type thing, pledged to be together and get married. yet she's suddenly pregnant and a unmarried woman, and it wasn't Joseph, so obviously he would have classed that as crooked as they did in those days and he was going to put her away, but he didn't want to disgrace her publicly, yet the angel said to him its all good, she innocent so stay with her and dont be afraid to take her as his wife and get married. So they got married, and he did not know her and have relations until Jesus was born.

And they would have got married quickly at that time otherwise it would have been known obvious unmarried pregnant woman. You can't marry someone when they 8 months pregnant and they have a baby like a few weeks later and people not going to know its crooked. Lol.

Unless can be corrected wrong that there was no penalty or people were not disowned or looked down on for unmarried pregnancy in those days with the rules they followed. I acturally don't know, but I think it was.
 
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Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

It says public disgrace so seems like unmarried pregnant woman was seen as some form of adultery or sin, something everyone looked down on to be publicly shamed in some way.
 
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Mary was and remained a virgin, until after the birth of Jesus....she knew not Joseph until after the birth of Jesus.
After that she got busy.....they had at least 6 other children, scripture leaves no doubt on this.
Mary had normal sexual activity with Joseph. Looks like quite a bit as a matter of fact.

Nothing wrong with that. It is a scriptural command.

Mary remained a Virgin all her life.

Mary did not have sexual activity with Joseph.

Mary did not have any children apart from Jesus.

The above was believed by the early "reformers". It was only later that denials started

Read posts #1, #2, #3,#, 4#, #7
 
Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin

Although the Perpetual Virginity of Mary has never been formally proclaimed as a Marian Dogma of the Catholic Church, because of its universal acceptance and continued reference to it in Papal documents throughout the history of the Catholic Church (and at the 5th Ecumenical council), it has come to be accepted as a Marian Dogma. Consequently, it can be said that the perpetual virginity of Mary is a Catholic Dogma by virtue of the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

It was also accepted by the Orthodox and by the early "reformers".

Martin Luther:
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin....Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Weimer, The Works of Luther, English Transl. by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11,pp. 319-320; v. 6 p. 510.)

"Christ...was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him..."brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39.)

"He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb...This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." (Ibid.)


John Calvin:
"There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest that from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company....And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562.)

Ulrich Zwingli:
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary....Christ...was born of a most undefiled Virgin." (Stakemeier, E. in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K., ed., Rome, 1962, p. 456.)

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., v. 1, p. 424.)


The next post will start the arguments for Mary's perpetual virginity. There are 6 of them.

Mary had sons, and daughters.

James being one of them and is the author of the book of James.


Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.”
But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Luke 8:19-21


Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”
Matthew 13:55-56
 
Mary had sons, and daughters.

James being one of them and is the author of the book of James.


Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.”
But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Luke 8:19-21


Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”
Matthew 13:55-56
The issue of "brothers (and sisters) has already been addressed in post #51.
But to save you the effort of going back to that I'll reproduce it here.

There are many possibilities even in English
The first point is that there are different kinds of brothers (and sisters) - full blood brothers, half brothers, adoptive brothers. If a man and woman marry and both have children by a previous marriage they will be regarded as brothers and sisters even though they have no genetic relationship. The actual relationship of these “brothers” to Jesus cannot be established unless a genealogy is given, and it is not.

Secondly the word brother can be used in a very loose sense. In Aramaic there is no word for cousin and the word for brother (aha) would include cousin or even nephew. Whilst Greek does include a word for cousin but it is quite possible to translators/writers just used the Greek adelphos to replace the Aramaic aha. Moreover the Greek word for brother (adelphos) was also used very loosely for various degrees of kinship.

In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the LXX) the word adelphos is used for Lot’s nephew (Gen 14:14). Other similar examples can be given.

Paul says in Col 4:7 & 9
“Tychicus, my beloved brother (adelphos)……..together with Onesimus, a trustworthy and beloved brother (adelphos)”. We know from the letter to Philemon that Onesimus was actually a runaway slave, not Paul’s brother (or cousin).

According to Dave Armstrong (a Catholic apologist), a Protestant work The Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words defines adelphos as follows:

Adelphos: denotes a brother, or near kinsmen; in the plural, a community based on identity of origin or life. It is used of:
1. male, children of the same parents….
2. male descendant of the same parents, Acts 7:23,26; Hebrews 7:5
4. people of the same nationality, Acts 3:17,22; Romans 9:3
5. any man or neighbor, Luke 10:29; Matthew 5:22, 7:3;
6. persons united by a common interest, Matthew 5:47
7. persons united by a common calling, Revelation 22:9
8. mankind, Matthew 25:40; Hebrews 2:17
9. the disciples, and so, by implication, all believers Matthew 28;10, John 20;17
10. believers, apart from sex, Matthew 23:8, Acts 1:15; Romans 1:13; ! Thessalonians 1:4; Revelation 19:10 (the word sisters is used of believers only in 1Tim 5:2)… [/quote]


And from posts #47
Also when Luke tells us about the family in Nazareth, he only mentions three persons, not more. (Lk 2:41-52) When Jesus was lost in the temple, Joseph and Mary did not return with other sons. If one were lost, surely they would not leave the others (if there were any) at risk of losing them as well.
There is no mention of any other children being born to Mary.

And
An important argument from a theological perspective is that always, when a birth is announced by an angel of a son, it is a matter of an only son.
If these were figures of the Messiah, it would be illogical that they would be only sons, and the one represented by them were not like them.
 
Mary remained a Virgin all her life.
Hello Mungo my friend, The bible does not say this anywhere. Joseph did not know Mary, until after the birth of Jesus. Sexual activity in a God ordained marriage is commanded. Mary would have sinned against Joseph if she withheld her body from him.
Mary did not have sexual activity with Joseph.
Explain this verse for us;
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
What is Matthew telling us? What is the biblical use of this term...to know? like here;

Gen4:
4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived,
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son,
Do you see it my friend? Know=sexual relations=conceived

Knew his wife she conceived
Knew his wife again> she bare a son
Mary did not have any children apart from Jesus.
She had at least 6:3 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
The above was believed by the early "reformers". It was only later that denials started
She false ideas from the early apostates are why I found a bible, and left that false teaching system as have millions of others. Some day you will also.


Read posts #1, #2, #3,#, 4#, #7

prove nothing at all.
 
Hello Mungo my friend, The bible does not say this anywhere. Joseph did not know Mary, until after the birth of Jesus. Sexual activity in a God ordained marriage is commanded. Mary would have sinned against Joseph if she withheld her body from him.

Not if their was their agreement before they became betrothed.

Explain this verse for us;
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
What is Matthew telling us? What is the biblical use of this term...to know? like here;

Gen4:
4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived,
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son,
Do you see it my friend? Know=sexual relations=conceived

Knew his wife she conceived
Knew his wife again> she bare a son

She had at least 6:3 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

She false ideas from the early apostates are why I found a bible, and left that false teaching system as have millions of others. Some day you will also.
Answered in post #29
 
Not if their was their agreement before they became betrothed.
Again, you offer nothing biblical...you ignore what scripture does say,,,, and speculate on what scripture does not say. Come on , you are better than that.


Answered in post #29
no...not by a long shot, the in the greek double talk is avoiding the issue. Until....she was a virgin until Joseph introduced his manhood, into her womanhood. Very scriptural indeed.

3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
 
Mary remained a Virgin all her life.

Mary did not have sexual activity with Joseph.

Mary did not have any children apart from Jesus.

The above was believed by the early "reformers". It was only later that denials started

Read posts #1, #2, #3,#, 4#, #7

I just go on what the scriptures say.

Mary and Joseph got married when she found out she was pregnant with Jesus and he didn't know her and have relations with her until Jesus was born.

"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James". Why not mention all the brethren, only a couple individuals by name as his brothers?. Why not is this not Jesus the brother of Peter and John?

"But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother". He doesn't call anyone else the Lord's brother by name is scripture. Why does James get special treatment. Why didn't he say he seen Peter the Lord's brother, or see will send Timothy, the Lord's brother.
 
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Again, you offer nothing biblical...you ignore what scripture does say,,,, and speculate on what scripture does not say. Come on , you are better than that.

It is based on scripture. Read post #2.

no...not by a long shot, the in the greek double talk is avoiding the issue. Until....she was a virgin until Joseph introduced his manhood, into her womanhood. Very scriptural indeed.

3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

All covered in the posts I listed.

Try engaging in what I have written in them.
 
I just go on what the scriptures say.

SO do I
Mary and Joseph got married when she found out she was pregnant with Jesus and he didn't know her and have relations with her until Jesus was born.

"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James". Why not mention all the brethren, only a couple individuals by name as his brothers?. Why not is this not Jesus the brother of Peter and John?

"But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother". He doesn't call anyone else the Lord's brother by name is scripture. Why does James get special treatment. Why didn't he say he seen Peter the Lord's brother, or see will send Timothy, the Lord's brother.

All covered in the posts I referenced.

Try engaging in what I have written in them.
 
SO do I


All covered in the posts I referenced.

Try engaging in what I have written in them.

There is nothing in the scriptures that Mary could not or did not have relations with her own husband. Just virgin who would give birth to the Christ and virgin before she married Joseph and was pregnat with Jesus.

There is no sin or uncleanliness for a married woman to be with her righteous husband who she married.

Your just closed minded and indoctrinated in forever virgin belief with no direct evidence in scripture. Nothing wrong with that thou, it's not a salvation issue if someone believes she was ever virgin or was not a virgin.

If the scripture said something for example like and she gave birth to her only son, or first and only son, that's all it would take to agree, but there is nothing in scripture, it just says her firstborn son.

All that's just about is brothers and sisters, still nothing about just sleeping with her own husband.
 
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