Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin

[Mungo]

Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin

Although the Perpetual Virginity of Mary has never been formally proclaimed as a Marian Dogma of the Catholic Church, because of its universal acceptance and continued reference to it in Papal documents throughout the history of the Catholic Church (and at the 5th Ecumenical council), it has come to be accepted as a Marian Dogma. Consequently, it can be said that the perpetual virginity of Mary is a Catholic Dogma by virtue of the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

It was also accepted by the Orthodox and by the early "reformers".

Martin Luther:
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin....Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Weimer, The Works of Luther, English Transl. by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11,pp. 319-320; v. 6 p. 510.)

"Christ...was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him..."brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39.)

"He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb...This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." (Ibid.)

John Calvin:
"There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest that from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company....And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562.)

Ulrich Zwingli:
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary....Christ...was born of a most undefiled Virgin." (Stakemeier, E. in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K., ed., Rome, 1962, p. 456.)

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., v. 1, p. 424.)

The next post will start the arguments for Mary's perpetual virginity. There are 6 of them.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Well, so far it's just your opinions. No proof of anything.

Really? If you are going to deny the meaning of words then this discussion will go no where. You cannot be educate when basic word meaning eludes you. Opinion? Like what? the meaning of words is not an opinion, words mean what they mean in context of use.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Most of this is a straw man argument.
I don't know any Catholic apologist who claims that "know" in this context doesn't mean sexual intercourse.
But again you provide no evidence for that claim.

I'll come back to the "until" shortly but you say "It is clear, until/til would mean, after that point when she gave birth".
Again that is just your opinion.

Clearly, scripture is not evidence for you nor a dictionary. You don't need to come back to me on anything. I can read and comprehend. I get the NT language just as I do the OT language. At one time Catholics did but then false doctrine came along and then so did the plague of ignorance.

 

[God Is My Judge]

I recognize fear Mungo. When you can't win you just straight up deny and stick with the lie even in the face of commonsense. You stick with the contradictory argument set up against God. Let me know how that works out for ya in the end. Trust me I will know " Do you not know the saints will judge the world" (know) in this case means knowledge of something another proof against your ridiculous claim. You can't even apply that form of (know) to your " Catholic" stance because clearly, Joseph had knowledge of who Mary was because they were betrothed to one another. So your "to know" must be from another plain and dimension not known to scripture or any KNOWN dictionary. KNOWN, here means to have foreknowledge of something due to it being around for a long time. But I digress .

 

[God Is My Judge]

Matthew 7.. 6Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

I now know to end this discussion with you. If you tear up the natural meaning and application of words, deny scriptural proof of the word/words that have been properly understood when used in the OT, your mind is no more sound than a dog's. You treat commonsense like a dog does a bone, like swine does slop. You can make no distinctions between pearls- (commonsense) and dog's food- ( illogical definitions and meaning of words) nor pearls and slop. You have not the mind of one of higher being.

 

[Mungo]

Really? If you are going to deny the meaning of words then this discussion will go no where. You cannot be educate when basic word meaning eludes you. Opinion? Like what? the meaning of words is not an opinion, words mean what they mean in context of use.

Clearly, scripture is not evidence for you nor a dictionary. You don't need to come back to me on anything. I can read and comprehend. I get the NT language just as I do the OT language. At one time Catholics did but then false doctrine came along and then so did the plague of ignorance.

There are two issues that you have raised.
1. That the Catholic Church denies that to "know" in the context of Mt 1:25 means to have sexual intercourse.

2. That the word until in Mt 1:25 means that Joseph did have sexual intercourse with Mary after Jesus was born.

Your first claim is false. As I said, I know of no Catholic apologist (nor the Catholic Church) that has made that claim, and you provide no evidence that they have. Therefore your claim and argument is simply a straw man argument. No-one is disputing that in that context "know" me3ans sexual intercourse. The scripture you quote are a waste of time since they are not disputed.

Your second claim is false because, as I will show later, "until" does not mean what you claim it means.
You say "Clearly, scripture is not evidence for you nor a dictionary." but regarding "until" you give neither scriptural nor dictionary evidence. All I get are your opinions.

 

[Mungo]

I recognize fear Mungo. When you can't win you just straight up deny and stick with the lie even in the face of commonsense. You stick with the contradictory argument set up against God. Let me know how that works out for ya in the end. Trust me I will know " Do you not know the saints will judge the world" (know) in this case means knowledge of something another proof against your ridiculous claim. You can't even apply that form of (know) to your " Catholic" stance because clearly, Joseph had knowledge of who Mary was because they were betrothed to one another. So your "to know" must be from another plain and dimension not known to scripture or any KNOWN dictionary. KNOWN, here means to have foreknowledge of something due to it being around for a long time. But I digress .

Matthew 7.. 6Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

I now know to end this discussion with you. If you tear up the natural meaning and application of words, deny scriptural proof of the word/words that have been properly understood when used in the OT, your mind is no more sound than a dog's. You treat commonsense like a dog does a bone, like swine does slop. You can make no distinctions between pearls- (commonsense) and dog's food- ( illogical definitions and meaning of words) nor pearls and slop. You have not the mind of one of higher being.

Regarding these two posts can I draw you attention to the TOS for this site:

Our aim is to speak freely about theology and biblical concepts and the understanding of scripture but in an atmosphere of mutual respect and love for our brothers and sisters in Christ.

I do not see much respect or love in these posts.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Regarding these two posts can I draw you attention to the TOS for this site:

Our aim is to speak freely about theology and biblical concepts and the understanding of scripture but in an atmosphere of mutual respect and love for our brothers and sisters in Christ.

I do not see much respect or love in these posts.

Take it up with God.

 

[God Is My Judge]

There are two issues that you have raised.
1. That the Catholic Church denies that to "know" in the context of Mt 1:25 means to have sexual intercourse.

2. That the word until in Mt 1:25 means that Joseph did have sexual intercourse with Mary after Jesus was born.

Your first claim is false. As I said, I know of no Catholic apologist (nor the Catholic Church) that has made that claim, and you provide no evidence that they have. Therefore your claim and argument is simply a straw man argument. No-one is disputing that in that context "know" me3ans sexual intercourse. The scripture you quote are a waste of time since they are not disputed.

Your second claim is false because, as I will show later, "until" does not mean what you claim it means.
You say "Clearly, scripture is not evidence for you nor a dictionary." but regarding "until" you give neither scriptural nor dictionary evidence. All I get are your opinions.

Again, simply opinion you have not proven the words mean something other than what they mean. And I love how you refer me to the Forum rules. I've read your responses to people . You are no wall flower, arrogant and ignorant but no wall flower.

 

[Mungo]

UNTIL
The word until (or till) denotes a point in time up to which some action occurred. Neither it, nor (I'm told by a Greek Orthodox) the Greek heos from which is translated, mean that the action changed, only that there was something significant about that point in time. That point in time may be significant for reason other than a change in the action.

The word until (or till) is used to mark a period of time. Until, nor (I'm told by a Greek Orthodox) the Greek heos from which is translated, says nothing about what happens outside that period of time.

Something happens, or does not happen from time point "A" until time point "B"

What happens after time point "B" we either:
1. simply do not know
2. infer from something else in the text
3. assume from the general context

Here is proof from dictionaries

until
n preposition & conjunction up to (the point in time or the event mentioned).
(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)

The Collins Concise Dictionary says a little more:
until
1. up to (a time}
2. (used with a negative) before (a time of event)

You see - no assumptions can be made about what happens after the until point.

Here are some proofs from scripture
“There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until (heos) she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).
What happened afterwards? The text does not say. We may assume she did not marry because that seems unlikely in the circumstances.

"Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death"(Lk 2:36-37).
Did she have children after he death? We assume not because it is unknown for dead women to have children. But that is an assumption based on the context.

Jesus said to the Apostles “And remember, I am with you always, to (heos) the end of the age.” (Mt 28:20). Does that mean he won’t be with us after the end of the age? NO

Here are some more
but to [until] this day no one knows the place of his [Moses] burial (Deut 34:6)
Do we know the place of Moses burial? NO

For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1Cor 15:25)
Will Christ stop reigning after he has put all his enemies under his feet? NO

Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching.(1Tim 4:13)
After Paul arrives will Timothy stop reading, exhortation and teaching? NO

And I could give you several more.

Therefore Mt 1:25 is NOT evidence that Mary and Joseph had sexual intercourse after Jesus' birth.

Now are you going to address the six points I gave in posts #2, #3, #4, #7?

 

[Mungo]

You are no wall flower, arrogant and ignorant but no wall flower.

Be careful. Continuing insults like that will get you banned.

 

[God Is My Judge]

There are two issues that you have raised.
1. That the Catholic Church denies that to "know" in the context of Mt 1:25 means to have sexual intercourse.

2. That the word until in Mt 1:25 means that Joseph did have sexual intercourse with Mary after Jesus was born.

Your first claim is false. As I said, I know of no Catholic apologist (nor the Catholic Church) that has made that claim, and you provide no evidence that they have. Therefore your claim and argument is simply a straw man argument. No-one is disputing that in that context "know" me3ans sexual intercourse. The scripture you quote are a waste of time since they are not disputed.

Your second claim is false because, as I will show later, "until" does not mean what you claim it means.
You say "Clearly, scripture is not evidence for you nor a dictionary." but regarding "until" you give neither scriptural nor dictionary evidence. All I get are your opinions.

Mungo said :Your second claim is false because, as I will show later, "until" does not mean what you claim it means.
You say "Clearly, scripture is not evidence for you nor a dictionary." but regarding "until" you give neither scriptural nor dictionary evidence. All I get are your opinions.

Don't try to drop the Michal and David scenario on me. This is not my first rodeo. You will have to use your extraterrestrial bible and/or dictionary to find support for your NEW meaning of the word UNTIL and (to know) according to scriptural meaning in application. Go ahead I'll wait while you reinvent the word (Until) .

If you plan on dropping the Catholic trumped up version of Samuel you will be put to shame.
RSV 2Samuel 6 :
16 As the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window, and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.
17 And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in its place, inside the tent which David had pitched for it; and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.
18 And when David had finished offering the burnt offerings and the peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts,
19 and distributed among all the people, the whole multitude of Israel, both men and women, to each a cake of bread, a portion of meat, and a cake of raisins. Then all the people departed, each to his house.
20 And David returned to bless his household. But Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, "How the king of Israel honored himself today, uncovering himself today before the eyes of his servants' maids, as one of the vulgar fellows shamelessly uncovers himself!"
21 And David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me above your father, and above all his house, to appoint me as prince over Israel, the people of the LORD--and I will make merry before the LORD.
22 I will make myself yet more contemptible than this, and I will be abased in your eyes; but by the maids of whom you have spoken, by them I shall be held in honor."
23 And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death.

Some Catholics claim it states (until death). Which makes no sense in context of the contempt she showed David and David's response. They usurp the actual words to try and reinforce their conviction which only changes the meaning of the whole account. Not to mention it actually never said that- (until). Catholics simply end up looking convicted of crimes against the Word of God.

 

[God Is My Judge]

UNTIL
The word until (or till) denotes a point in time up to which some action occurred. Neither it, nor (I'm told by a Greek Orthodox) the Greek heos from which is translated, mean that the action changed, only that there was something significant about that point in time. That point in time may be significant for reason other than a change in the action.

The word until (or till) is used to mark a period of time. Until, nor (I'm told by a Greek Orthodox) the Greek heos from which is translated, says nothing about what happens outside that period of time.

Something happens, or does not happen from time point "A" until time point "B"

What happens after time point "B" we either:
1. simply do not know
2. infer from something else in the text
3. assume from the general context

Here is proof from dictionaries

until
n preposition & conjunction up to (the point in time or the event mentioned).
(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)

The Collins Concise Dictionary says a little more:
until
1. up to (a time}
2. (used with a negative) before (a time of event)

You see - no assumptions can be made about what happens after the until point.

Here are some proofs from scripture
“There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until (heos) she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).
What happened afterwards? The text does not say. We may assume she did not marry because that seems unlikely in the circumstances.

"Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death"(Lk 2:36-37).
Did she have children after he death? We assume not because it is unknown for dead women to have children. But that is an assumption based on the context.

Jesus said to the Apostles “And remember, I am with you always, to (heos) the end of the age.” (Mt 28:20). Does that mean he won’t be with us after the end of the age? NO

Here are some more
but to [until] this day no one knows the place of his [Moses] burial (Deut 34:6)
Do we know the place of Moses burial? NO

For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1Cor 15:25)
Will Christ stop reigning after he has put all his enemies under his feet? NO

Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching.(1Tim 4:13)
After Paul arrives will Timothy stop reading, exhortation and teaching? NO

And I could give you several more.

Therefore Mt 1:25 is NOT evidence that Mary and Joseph had sexual intercourse after Jesus' birth.

Now are you going to address the six points I gave in posts #2, #3, #4, #7?

"Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death"(Lk 2:36-37).
Did she have children after he death? We assume not because it is unknown for dead women to have children. But that is an assumption based on the context. "

What bible has this interpretation? None! It is Catholic fudge. And don't go all Greek on me, I know my Greek. I'll address that soon .

Michal was being spurned by David who was ANOINTED! Michal was not anointed in the call David was. And because of her contempt for David, she was cursed. She bore NO CHILDREN with David or anyone for that matter. That is why David said what he did, nor did she bear children after her death spiritually. She was spurned! That is a fact. NO CHILDREN OF MICHAL exist old or new testament. If you want to try to assert that in her contempt for David- who was anointed by God, Michal was still graced and after conceived children, you will be hard pressed to find that anywhere in scripture. Ha you simply won't! This is not my first rodeo, I have been proving Catholic's wrong for a while now. Since I prove you wrong with your Michal fudge, I will the rest of the scriptures you attempt to misrepresent.

 

[God Is My Judge]

The word until (or till) is used to mark a period of time. Until, nor (I'm told by a Greek Orthodox) the Greek heos from which is translated, says nothing about what happens outside that period of time.

Something happens, or does not happen from time point "A" until time point "B"

What happens after time point "B" we either:
1. simply do not know
2. infer from something else in the text
3. assume from the general context

Here is proof from dictionaries

until
n preposition & conjunction up to (the point in time or the event mentioned).
(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)

The Collins Concise Dictionary says a little more:
until
1. up to (a time}
2. (used with a negative) before (a time of event)

Up to the point of something? What was that something? Not until she gave birth, not until she died, not until what then? And (to know) or (knew her not until) means what- he didn't even know her as a person, he would never know her at all as a person? Until what? Fill in the gaps, you have some missing links.

Do your song and dance, Until means until -up to a certain point in time when then the change in the action commences no matter the language .

 

[God Is My Judge]

“There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until (heos) she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).

36There was also a prophetess named Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher, who was well along in years. She had been married for seven years, 37and then was a widow to the age of eighty-four. She never left the temple, but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.

Here is the gap filler. Luke is speaking of her in past tense. That would be elementary, she was 84. So, her being a widow until 84 would indicate she died or the stretch--------------- she remarried. The application of (until) you use is a stretch concerning you, because (until) in that bible verse still means the same thing there. I know you can read, do you have a deficit in comprehension? Given her age and commitment she most likely died. Hence, (until) is depicting a point of change . It is probably why Luke speaks in past tense concerning her. And still this does not change the meaning of until. It is still the same whether in Greek, Hebrew, Latin or Swahili. 'Apostle' concerning Greek however, does have two meanings (that is for another discussion).

 

[God Is My Judge]

Be careful. Continuing insults like that will get you banned.

arrogant: having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities

ignorant: lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated:

Now, since we are talking about actual meaning of words -until and to know someone- concerning biblical tactfulness addressing consummating....I am not off. You would have to be arrogant to put your own abilities in nontruth above actual evidence to the contrary while in so many words calling me the very same thing including liar. I just shortened the inference and correctly if I may add.

 

[Mungo]

"Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death"(Lk 2:36-37).
Did she have children after he death? We assume not because it is unknown for dead women to have children. But that is an assumption based on the context. "

What bible has this interpretation? None! It is Catholic fudge. And don't go all Greek on me, I know my Greek. I'll address that soon .

Michal was being spurned by David who was ANOINTED! Michal was not anointed in the call David was. And because of her contempt for David, she was cursed. She bore NO CHILDREN with David or anyone for that matter. That is why David said what he did, nor did she bear children after her death spiritually. She was spurned! That is a fact. NO CHILDREN OF MICHAL exist old or new testament. If you want to try to assert that in her contempt for David- who was anointed by God, Michal was still graced and after conceived children, you will be hard pressed to find that anywhere in scripture. Ha you simply won't! This is not my first rodeo, I have been proving Catholic's wrong for a while now. Since I prove you wrong with your Michal fudge, I will the rest of the scriptures you attempt to misrepresent.

To, until, til, unto are all the same in this context.
Yes, we know Michal did not have any children after her death. But that is NOT because of the word until, but because we know that dead people do not have children.

 

[Mungo]

Up to the point of something? What was that something? Not until she gave birth, not until she died, not until what then? And (to know) or (knew her not until) means what- he didn't even know her as a person, he would never know her at all as a person? Until what? Fill in the gaps, you have some missing links.

Do your song and dance, Until means until -up to a certain point in time when then the change in the action commences no matter the language .

Up to the point named by the until. With MIchal's that was her death. With Mary it was the birth of Jesus.
And until does not mean a change of action.

 

[Mungo]

36There was also a prophetess named Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher, who was well along in years. She had been married for seven years, 37and then was a widow to the age of eighty-four. She never left the temple, but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.

Here is the gap filler. Luke is speaking of her in past tense. That would be elementary, she was 84. So, her being a widow until 84 would indicate she died or the stretch--------------- she remarried. The application of (until) you use is a stretch concerning you, because (until) in that bible verse still means the same thing there. I know you can read, do you have a deficit in comprehension? Given her age and commitment she most likely died. Hence, (until) is depicting a point of change . It is probably why Luke speaks in past tense concerning her. And still this does not change the meaning of until. It is still the same whether in Greek, Hebrew, Latin or Swahili. 'Apostle' concerning Greek however, does have two meanings (that is for another discussion).

So you just conjecture - "indicate", "most likely" "probably". You have to try and infer it from the context.
That is the point - until doesn't tell you.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Up to the point named by the until. With MIchal's that was her death. With Mary it was the birth of Jesus.
And until does not mean a change of action.

No, it means a point in which another action will follow or a change commences. And now you are just pretexting and Michal has nothing to do with this discussion. And since you don't know what you are talking about concerning her, there is no way you can keep it real.

 

[Mungo]

No, it means a point in which another action will follow or a change commences. And now you are just pretexting and Michal has nothing to do with this discussion. And since you don't know what you are talking about concerning her, there is no way you can keep it real.

No it doesn't. mean a point in which another action will follow or a change commences as the example s I gave show, and which the dictionary definitions show.