Understanding The Law Of Moses - With The Help Of The Prophets And The Apostles

[eddif]

This thread is not meant to be a battle field. This is an age old discussion, that can get out of hand. If I get out of line remove me. The Moderators and Administrators may drop by at any time, and can ask for clarification at any time (ten times in a row if necessary). Forum rules will apply.
Jewish background people are welcome, gentile background peoples are welcome, Christian background people are welcome, Sons and Daughters are welcome.
Scriptures are really needed. Traditions will be discussed.

That said. This thread is not trying to get anyone circumcised or follow the law of Moses. But. We may discuss all aspects and why for a time it was done. The reasons why will be discussed.

Matthew 5:17 kjv
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

Thekjv we can deal with Theology here

wondering Hidden In Him for_his_glory Free JLB stovebolts Christ_empowered Beit Avraham daninthelionsden D-D-W
I can’t get my memory to work for several more of you.

eddif

 

[Hopeful 2]

What is there to "understand" ?
The Law was instituted to make men see that the evil they did was against God's wishes.
It is written..."Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Rom 7:12-13)

 

[Hidden In Him]

Matthew 5:17 kjv
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Not sure I understand the question either, Eddif.

Is this to ask which parts have been fulfilled and which parts haven't? You'd have to start by asking what exactly did Jesus mean there by "fulfill." He could have simply meant "obey," or He could have meant "complete."

But in general, the parts of the law no longer binding upon Christians are the ceremonial and cleanness laws. The moral laws of Moses are still binding upon all who believe in the Old Testament God. Not that they are saved by keeping the law to perfection, but then the Jews weren't either, so I don't really understand how that question even applies. But the moral law is still binding, whereas the ceremonial and cleanness laws no longer are.

God bless,
Hidden

 

[eddif]

What is there to "understand" ?
The Law was instituted to make men see that the evil they did was against God's wishes.
It is written..."Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Rom 7:12-13)

I am so glad you asked.
Man did not know what sin was till the law existed.
Galatians 3:19 kjv
19. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The law defined sin. Paul said:
Romans 7:9 kjv
9. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Paul was alive carnally and did not know he was a sinnier. My ego tells mei am ok. My wife informs me of my error. Does that make my wife bad? No. It helps me die to self.

John the Baptist pointed out sins (cost him his head). It also drew men to Christ to relieve the sentence of death.

We sin against the Father
Forgiven by the Son
Empowered by the Hily Spirit to witness y the good news to others.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

Eddif.

Is this to ask which parts have been fulfilled and which parts haven't? You'd have to start by asking what exactly did Jesus mean there by "fulfill." He could have simply meant "obey," or He could have meant "complete."

Why not obey, complete, understand, receive the oracles of God, find the hidden things of God and more?

Why not more like (fill in the gaps). The law was temporal till Christ came. A schoolmaster teaches skills, but the student has to use the skills in later life. School classes are generalized, we have use them in a specific way.
Feed the working ox becomes:
Pay the preacher
The plumber
IRS
Plowman
Planter.

eddif

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I am so glad you asked.
Man did not know what sin was till the law existed.
Galatians 3:19 kjv
19. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The law defined sin. Paul said:
Romans 7:9 kjv
9. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Paul was alive carnally and did not know he was a sinnier. My ego tells mei am ok. My wife informs me of my error. Does that make my wife bad? No. It helps me die to self.

People did know good from evil before Moses delivered the law. The law defines evil as sin against God.

John the Baptist pointed out sins (cost him his head). It also drew men to Christ to relieve the sentence of death.

Don't know how you mean this, but Johns' faith cost him his head.

We sin against the Father
Forgiven by the Son
Empowered by the Hily Spirit to witness y the good news to others.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

This is a great way to see the Oneness if God, because he also forgives and his Son was sinned against.

 

[eddif]

But in general, the parts of the law no longer binding upon Christians are the ceremonial and cleanness laws. The moral laws of Moses are still binding upon all who believe in the Old Testament God. Not that they are saved by keeping the law to perfection, but then the Jews weren't either, so I don't really understand how that question even applies. But the moral law is still binding, whereas the ceremonial and cleanness laws no longer are.

Matthew 5:22 kjv
22. But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I believe if we look at the law in various places we can find hints of Matthew 5.22

We stretch the law /(look deeply into the Law) to see these things.

The ceremonies Jesus fulfilled
The sabbath puts us entering the rest he created for us.
Hebrews 4:10 kjv
10. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

The clean external becomes/is extended to include the clean internal C.

eddif

 

[eddif]

People did know good from evil before Moses delivered the law. The law defines evil as sin against God.

Genesis 3:22 kjv
22. People did know good from evil before Moses delivered the law. The law defines evil as sin against God.

Man came to know good and evil. In confusion.

1 Corinthians 12:10 kjv
10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

IMHO thhe ability to tell good spirit from a bad spirit is a spiritual gift.

Jesus discerned the type of persons people were.

I have to generalize some with your question

The prophets sometimes knew good from evil by the spirit.

The high priest used Urim and Thummim

King David had to be told about Uriah

eddif.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Why not more like (fill in the gaps). The law was temporal till Christ came. A schoolmaster teaches skills, but the student has to use the skills in later life. School classes are generalized, we have use them in a specific way.
Feed the working ox becomes:
Pay the preacher
The plumber
IRS
Plowman
Planter.

Ok, well the way things normally work is that you present how you feel the law should be applied and what should be made of it, and then others assess whether your use of and application of the law is correct or not, Lol.

I suppose you are hoping for me to do so, but for one that's a pretty broad field, and for two I unfortunately don't have the most time right now. But tag me if someone posts something specific.

God bless,
- H

 

[eddif]

Ok, well the way things normally work is that you present how you feel the law should be applied and what should be made of it, and then others assess whether your use of and application of the law is correct or not, Lol.

I suppose you are hoping for me to do so, but for one that's a pretty broad field, and for two I unfortunately don't have the most time right now. But tag me if someone posts something specific.

God bless,
- H

Well let me see.
I said I was not trying to get people circumcised or have them keep the law of Moses.

Quoted Jesus

Answered what others presented.

But, the questions of others could have come from my previous statements. I will have to pay attention better (which I may not be capable of LOL).

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Consecrated Life]

Genesis 3:22 kjv
22. People did know good from evil before Moses delivered the law. The law defines evil as sin against God.

Man came to know good and evil. In confusion.


eddif.

Adam and Eve were not confused at all , they knew they had fallen greatly .

Gen 3:7
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

And they reacted to their sin exactly as our carnal nature tells us to do today , hide it

 

[daninthelionsden]

Here's how I see it. Once we ate of fruit, we condemned ourselves with the knowledge of good/evil. God told us what He expected of us through the law. We were unable to achieve this. He came and showed us. Thus by living sinless, He fulfilled the law we were unable to. He also showed us we are nothing without Him, showing us everyday and in every way how we need Him to walk us through our lives. He paid our debt as long as we walk with Him.

 

[eddif]

Gen 3:7
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

And they reacted to their sin exactly as our carnal nature tells us to do today , hide it

They knew they were naked.
Under the law the physical is known, but sin becomes more defined under the law. Then, in the new covenant a greater awareness comes. We know about nakedness and sin and righteousness as a garment.
1 Timothy 2:14 kjv
14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
The seed is the word of God
The ground is men’s hearts

When the law came we start to
See sin defined. When the Holy Spirit comes we can identify sin.

This look into the law is not going to be easy at all.

We think that what we know now was known then. Or we think that time means nothing.

Romans 13:14 kjv
14. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Job 29:14 kjv
14. I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

This is the Holy Spirit speaking through Job.

In another place put on the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness.

A prophet in the OT can make a NT statement and not understand the statement.
1 Peter 1:10 kjv
10. Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should comeunto you:
11. Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

This is important.
This shows a new covenant statement can be made by a prophet in the Old Testament, and the prophet not understand what the spirit in him spoke.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

Here's how I see it. Once we ate of fruit, we condemned ourselves with the knowledge of good/evil. God told us what He expected of us through the law. We were unable to achieve this. He came and showed us. Thus by living sinless, He fulfilled the law we were unable to. He also showed us we are nothing without Him, showing us everyday and in every way how we need Him to walk us through our lives. He paid our debt as long as we walk with Him.

That is pretty good. Right about now I am tired.
I would add:
The flood with the total dominion of sin broken.

The day of Pentecost and sons and daughters empowered to witness.

Christ in us

So the law had one level of glory
And
Thee covenant got better
Then
At the last trump it is made better still.


eddif

 

[Consecrated Life]

They knew they were naked.

When the law came we start to
See sin defined. When the Holy Spirit comes we can identify sin.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

They knew much more than the fact they were naked.
What you are describing is a distinction without a difference.
In the same way that Cain knew, pre-law, that he needed to hide Abel's murdered dead body in the ground, and then lie to God about it
Identical to the same way murderer's conduct themselves today thousands and thousands of years post-law
No written law required to know right and wrong.
Nothing new under the sun.
God has written the law on our hearts the day we are born.

Gen 4:9
And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

Gen 4:10
And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground

 

[stovebolts]

Matthew 5:17 kjv
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

I did a deep dive into this passage many years ago and here is a brief take away.

Mathew is writing to Jewish Christians, and this is important. It’s also noteworthy to add this book was written in Aramaic, not Greek.

In Jewish terms, to fulfill a law meant that you were able to live it out perfectly not only in action, but understanding and in spirit. This starts with interpretation. On can read a law, but not really understand it, or discern it correctly. If one failed to grasp the spirit of the law, or for simplicity we could say the intent of the law in its entirety (all 613) then their understanding would be off causing on to discern incorrectly.

A good Jew strived to fulfill the law in its entirety and of course, as the years go on one learns wisdom over the matter and living out those laws grow closer to Gods intent.

On the other hand, it is very possible for one to completely miss the intent and live it out so badley, it was said they abolished the law. Take for example those who took money for the temple, yet did not take care of, and often exploited the widow that had nothing. When a law was distorted so radically from its intent, it was said that one abolished the law.

Jesus starts in chapter 5 and ends in chapter 7.

You have heard it said, but I say…. Jesus gives proper instruction on how to fulfill the law, and gives examples of those that have abolished it.

Pretty simple.

 

[eddif]

They knew much more than the fact they were naked.
What you are describing is a distinction without a difference.
In the same way that Cain knew, pre-law, that he needed to hide Abel's murdered dead body in the ground, and then lie to God about it
Identical to the same way murderer's conduct themselves today thousands and thousands of years post-law
No written law required to know right and wrong.
Nothing new under the sun.
God has written the law on our hearts the day we are born.

Gen 4:9
And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

Gen 4:10
And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground

I think you answered your own question.

Cain hid the body - the physical

Goo knew of the murder - a word of spiritual knowledge

Again:
The people had good and evil mixed together.

Later it progressed to only evil continually.
Right before the flood. Only 8 people survived the flood. That broke the sun continually, but not all sin.

In one sense there are major jumps along the way. These jumps do not void what came before. The Jews had a record. The gentiles made up their history. The oracles of God are important.

Hopefully we stay (as much as possible) around the law of Moses. We are just getting started. The law was added because of sin.

Creation is a hint of progressive development:
Day one light after darkness shined on formless void creation
Day two firmament
Day three dry ground and plants
Day four the huhge time clock
Day five fish and birds
Day 6 dry land animals and man
Day seven God rested

There is a plan and progression, and problems handled.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

I did a deep dive into this passage many years ago and here is a brief take away.

Mathew is writing to Jewish Christians, and this is important. It’s also noteworthy to add this book was written in Aramaic, not Greek.

In Jewish terms, to fulfill a law meant that you were able to live it out perfectly not only in action, but understanding and in spirit. This starts with interpretation. On can read a law, but not really understand it, or discern it correctly. If one failed to grasp the spirit of the law, or for simplicity we could say the intent of the law in its entirety (all 613) then their understanding would be off causing on to discern incorrectly.

A good Jew strived to fulfill the law in its entirety and of course, as the years go on one learns wisdom over the matter and living out those laws grow closer to Gods intent.

On the other hand, it is very possible for one to completely miss the intent and live it out so badley, it was said they abolished the law. Take for example those who took money for the temple, yet did not take care of, and often exploited the widow that had nothing. When a law was distorted so radically from its intent, it was said that one abolished the law.

Jesus starts in chapter 5 and ends in chapter 7.

You have heard it said, but I say…. Jesus gives proper instruction on how to fulfill the law, and gives examples of those that have abolished it.

Pretty simple.

And hopefully we remind ourselves all through this thread. It is God’s plan (like you said) and not our personal
understanding or our favorite side notes.

We see through dark sunshades, but we are not blind to how he fulfills it.

eddif

 

[Hopeful 2]

I am so glad you asked.
Man did not know what sin was till the law existed.

That is debatable.

Galatians 3:19 kjv
19. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Your scripture doesn't verify your POV.

The law defined sin. Paul said:
Romans 7:9 kjv
9. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Paul was alive without the Law until he grew old enough to have a conscience of what the Law said was sin.
So I will agree that the Law defined what was sin.

Paul was alive carnally and did not know he was a sinnier.

Agreed, until he became aware of what was defined as sin.

John the Baptist pointed out sins (cost him his head). It also drew men to Christ to relieve the sentence of death.

OK.