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Understanding The Law Of Moses - With The Help Of The Prophets And The Apostles

That is debatable.

Your scripture doesn't verify your POV.

Paul was alive without the Law until he grew old enough to have a conscience of what the Law said was sin.
So I will agree that the Law defined what was sin.

Agreed, until he became aware of what was defined as sin.

OK.
Ok show the scripture that fits the law and tell why. Show why I am wrong. Show the scriptures that fit you and the law and tell why.

We are hopefully headed to truth.

Your statements are not self evident to me. Tell it like it are.

So debate
Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
Man came to know good and evil. In confusion.

1 Corinthians 12:10 kjv
10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

IMHO thhe ability to tell good spirit from a bad spirit is a spiritual gift.

Jesus discerned the type of persons people were.
He said all are known by their fruit.
I have to generalize some with your question

The prophets sometimes knew good from evil by the spirit.
Don't know what passages you're referring to here, but people before Moses knew good and evil. For instance, Josephs' brothers knew it was evil to sell him into slavery. They lied to Jacob because they knew it was wrong.
The high priest used Urim and Thummim
Imho, the urim thummin is symbolic of Christs' righteousness, which is that he could have brought the law against sinners who sinned against him, but instead showed mercy. That's how the urim thummin devined judgement.
King David had to be told about Uriah

eddif.
David came after the law, but knew he wronged (sinned against) God because he hid. He also acknowledged,

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Psa.51:4

Paul said,

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law Rom.5:13

Sin wasn't "imputed" as being against God, but it was regardless. That's why death still reigned without the law.
 
The law looks like a seed on the outside. You do not see the DNA story on the inside till revelation comes. I am not sure understanding is age related. Jesus told the disciples that the seed was the Word of God. The words seem to parallel the DNA. The death of th seed is the beginning of life.

John 12:24 kjv
24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

We have to die to self for us to live. I do not know the metabolics of seed germination. Can anyone help?

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
He said all are known by their fruit.

He works in us to will and do of his good pleasure. The ability to do good comes by God.
Don't know what passages you're referring to here, but people before Moses knew good and evil. For instance, Josephs' brothers knew it was evil to sell him into slavery. They lied to Jacob because they knew it was wrong.

Imho, the urim thummin is symbolic of Christs' righteousness, which is that he could have brought the law against sinners who sinned against him, but instead showed mercy. That's how the urim thummin devined judgement.

David came after the law, but knew he wronged (sinned against) God because he hid. He also acknowledged,

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Psa.51:4

Paul said,

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law Rom.5:13

Sin wasn't "imputed" as being against God, but it was regardless. That's why death still reigned without the law.
The knowledge of good and evil is the problem. We are to know only good. In our fallen condition the gift of discernment gives us the ability to know how to resist the evil.

Ezra 2:63 kjv
63. And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.

2 Kings 4:40 kjv
40. So they poured out for the men to eat. And it came to pass, as they were eating of the pottage, that they cried out, and said, O thou man of God, there is death in the pot. And they could not eat thereof.
41. But he said, Then bring meal. And he cast itinto the pot; and he said, Pour out for the people, that they may eat. And there was no harm in the pot.

Seems to me the answers came from the Urim and Thummim
I was not there.

The law was from Moses to John the Baptist.
Luke 16:16 kjv
16. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

John 1:17 kjv
17. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

IMHO was in prophetic mode when King Davidspoke of sinning only against God

That is why the Prophets and Apostles. Are in the title of this thread. The prophets spoke of future things spoke of things not yet revealed otherwise (except in hard to understand symbolism).

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
He works in us to will and do of his good pleasure. The ability to do good comes by God.

The knowledge of good and evil is the problem. We are to know only good. In our fallen condition the gift of discernment gives us the ability to know how to resist the evil.

Ezra 2:63 kjv
63. And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.

2 Kings 4:40 kjv
40. So they poured out for the men to eat. And it came to pass, as they were eating of the pottage, that they cried out, and said, O thou man of God, there is death in the pot. And they could not eat thereof.
41. But he said, Then bring meal. And he cast itinto the pot; and he said, Pour out for the people, that they may eat. And there was no harm in the pot.

Seems to me the answers came from the Urim and Thummim
I was not there.

The law was from Moses to John the Baptist.
Luke 16:16 kjv
16. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

John 1:17 kjv
17. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

IMHO was in prophetic mode when King Davidspoke of sinning only against God

That is why the Prophets and Apostles. Are in the title of this thread. The prophets spoke of future things spoke of things not yet revealed otherwise (except in hard to understand symbolism).

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
That is debatable.

Your scripture doesn't verify your POV.

Paul was alive without the Law until he grew old enough to have a conscience of what the Law said was sin.
So I will agree that the Law defined what was sin.

Agreed, until he became aware of what was defined as sin.

OK.
Ok I will play fair.
The reason it does not match.

I do not have A POV
I see at least the 613 different things the law speaks of stovebolts post #17

We are after all discussing the law of Moses.

If you refer just to my (without the law there is no knowledge of sin) then you are right.
But
We can discuss:
The wages of sin is death ( the law of Moses would list sins punishable by death).
The tithe
Wave offerings
Day of atonement
etc.

You can not be simplistic in looking at the law. And what gets interesting is the Passover refers to Jesus as a sacrifice (in the future).
Festival of first fruits speaks of Jesus being the first one out of the Grave IMHO.

I guess I use concepts and you use POVs.
Laws may work.

Looking back from where we are now; shadows of things to come works.

Romans 5:14 kjv
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Figure, pattern, type, other words fit.

The law is like a seed. Hard shell outside much softer inside. Hidden by fruit and hard coverings. To destroy the law is to throw away the vitamins (oracles of God?).

Understanding the law is not just A POV

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
Romans 3:30 kjv
30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Abraham was a gentile when called.

eddif
 
So are we getting to the point that the law is passing away? The wall is broken down between Jew and gentile, but some rubble still remains?

eddif
 
To all those who think that all the laws have been fulfilled in Christ you are very wrong as below are the laws that are written upon our heart and can only be fulfilled when Christ returns and makes an end to sin by throwing it into the lake of fire with that of the beast and the false prophets. The only laws that Christ has fulfilled so far are that of the Temple and its sacrifices. Someone please show me in scripture where Jesus has fulfilled all the laws, because in Matthew 22:35-40 and Matthew 5:17, 18 Jesus does not say that he has already fulfilled all of them, but that love was the greatest of them all.

There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. Then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.

We need to present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow the light of Christ shine in us and through us. This is a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.

Morality in God is His greatest commandment of love as we treat others as we want others to treat us. God is love and wants us to love and treat others as He loves and treats us.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 
To all those who think that all the laws have been fulfilled in Christ you are very wrong as below are the laws that are written upon our heart and can only be fulfilled when Christ returns and makes an end to sin by throwing it into the lake of fire with that of the beast and the false prophets. The only laws that Christ has fulfilled so far are that of the Temple and its sacrifices. Someone please show me in scripture where Jesus has fulfilled all the laws, because in Matthew 22:35-40 and Matthew 5:17, 18 Jesus does not say that he has already fulfilled all of them, but that love was the greatest of them all.

There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. Then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.

We need to present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow the light of Christ shine in us and through us. This is a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.

Morality in God is His greatest commandment of love as we treat others as we want others to treat us. God is love and wants us to love and treat others as He loves and treats us.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Two minutes difference in our posts.


Jesus is fulfilling all.
1 Corinthians 15:26
26. The last enemy that shall be destroyed isdeath.

eddif
 
Matthew 5:22 kjv
22. But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I believe if we look at the law in various places we can find hints of Matthew 5.22

We stretch the law /(look deeply into the Law) to see these things.

The ceremonies Jesus fulfilled
The sabbath puts us entering the rest he created for us.
Hebrews 4:10 kjv
10. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

The clean external becomes/is extended to include the clean internal C.

eddif

I believe one has to be clean internally first, and then it extends to the external.
God takes away the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh.
Exekiel 36:27

Great thread!
 
He works in us to will and do of his good pleasure. The ability to do good comes by God.
Yes, he showed us by his example in the Son and we follow Christs' example of forgiveness towards others so that they see the love of God.
The knowledge of good and evil is the problem. We are to know only good. In our fallen condition the gift of discernment gives us the ability to know how to resist the evil.
Following the Messiah is what brings descenment,

...then shall thy light rise in obscurity and
thy darkness be as the noonday:.. .Isa.58:10
Ezra 2:63 kjv
63. And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.
My opinion is that urim thummin represent the righteousness of Gods' people, like "the "breastplate of righteousness" it's attached to because of Jesus, the real High Priest... a robe of righteousness. In other words,

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord'sbody. 1Cor.11:29

the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.
2 Kings 4:40 kjv
40. So they poured out for the men to eat. And it came to pass, as they were eating of the pottage, that they cried out, and said, O thou man of God, there is death in the pot. And they could not eat thereof.
41. But he said, Then bring meal. And he cast itinto the pot; and he said, Pour out for the people, that they may eat. And there was no harm in the pot.

Seems to me the answers came from the Urim and Thummim
I was not there.
I don't believe urim & thummin was a type of divination. It symbolized knowing through application. Those who,

by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Look,

And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah; Deu.33:8

He seems to be saying, let the High Priest be faithful in the face of adversity.
The law was from Moses to John the Baptist.
Luke 16:16 kjv
16. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

John 1:17 kjv
17. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

IMHO was in prophetic mode when King Davidspoke of sinning only against God

That is why the Prophets and Apostles. Are in the title of this thread. The prophets spoke of future things spoke of things not yet revealed otherwise (except in hard to understand symbolism).

Mississippi redneck
eddif
I think the OT Prophets spoke about how the Messiah was going to suffer by loving people who hurt him and the Apostles learned this very quickly.
In a real sense, the Apostles were saying, This is wha's coming
 
Ok show the scripture that fits the law and tell why. Show why I am wrong. Show the scriptures that fit you and the law and tell why.
You posted..."Man did not know what sin was till the law existed."
But the word "sin" is used in the bible as early as Gen 4:7.
And again in Gen 13:13.
That is hundreds of years before the flood and before the Law was brought by God to the earth.
I feel that men knew full well what sin was.
We are hopefully headed to truth.
Your statements are not self evident to me. Tell it like it are.
So debate
Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
Ok I will play fair.
The reason it does not match.

I do not have A POV
I see at least the 613 different things the law speaks of stovebolts post #17

We are after all discussing the law of Moses.

If you refer just to my (without the law there is no knowledge of sin) then you are right.
But
We can discuss:
The wages of sin is death ( the law of Moses would list sins punishable by death).
The tithe
Wave offerings
Day of atonement
etc.

You can not be simplistic in looking at the law. And what gets interesting is the Passover refers to Jesus as a sacrifice (in the future).
Festival of first fruits speaks of Jesus being the first one out of the Grave IMHO.

I guess I use concepts and you use POVs.
Laws may work.

Looking back from where we are now; shadows of things to come works.

Romans 5:14 kjv
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Figure, pattern, type, other words fit.

The law is like a seed. Hard shell outside much softer inside. Hidden by fruit and hard coverings. To destroy the law is to throw away the vitamins (oracles of God?).

Understanding the law is not just A POV

Mississippi redneck
eddif
The POV in question was is..."men did not know what sin was until the Law told them what was sin".
I believe men knew what sin was since before Cain slew Abel.
Men have had that knowledge since Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
 
To all those who think that all the laws have been fulfilled in Christ you are very wrong as below are the laws that are written upon our heart and can only be fulfilled when Christ returns and makes an end to sin by throwing it into the lake of fire with that of the beast and the false prophets. The only laws that Christ has fulfilled so far are that of the Temple and its sacrifices. Someone please show me in scripture where Jesus has fulfilled all the laws, because in Matthew 22:35-40 and Matthew 5:17, 18 Jesus does not say that he has already fulfilled all of them, but that love was the greatest of them all.

There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. Then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.

We need to present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow the light of Christ shine in us and through us. This is a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.

Morality in God is His greatest commandment of love as we treat others as we want others to treat us. God is love and wants us to love and treat others as He loves and treats us.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If one thinks about, Jesus fulfilled all the Law when He completed His sin free life.
He fulfilled all of the Law perfectly.
 
We are not under any law written before Jesus walked the earth. He brought a new law with Him a New covenant.
Eph 2: says the law is was done away with.
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Heb 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

[34] But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
[35] Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 
1 Corinthians 9:8
8. Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

The law is not against the New Covenant.

Hidden in the Law of Moses are the things Jesus did/fulfilled/became.

Jesus is the first fruits of the ground.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
Ephesians 2:15 kjv
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments containedin ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

The enmity is gone.

Matthew 23:23 kjv
23. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The good parts of the law are still being manifested.

Matthew 5:17 kjv
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The prophets said:
Jeremiah 31:31 kjv
31. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ezekiel 36:27 kjv
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
….
Apostle said:
Hebrews 8:10 kjv
10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

The law is still being fulfilled.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
We are not under any law written before Jesus walked the earth. He brought a new law with Him a New covenant.
Eph 2: says the law is was done away with.
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
The law contains blessings and cursings. The "enmity" of the law, what is against us are the cursings for breaking it. So Paul is teaching that Jesus didn't use the law against people who sinned against him.
He took them by the hand out of slavery as Spirit speaking by a prophet.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

[34] But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
[35] Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
And our Lord also said,

The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. Mt.12:42

Gods' intention in giving Moses the law had to do with showing us that we've all sinned against him and need repent.
Our Saviors' teaching on even entertaing thoughts about sin make his word even more stringent than the law.

He backed it up by rising from mans condemnation of him. By defeating those who said he was a law breaker worthy of death. According to Moses' law, Jesus was innocent. There was no lawful reason to condemn him as a sinner,

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father Jn.5:45

as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Rom.2:20

there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. Jn.5:45
 
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