Unique, Not Only-Begotten

[miamited]

Jesus is not God or almighty.

I actually agree with that. I go with what God says of His own mouth, who Jesus is. "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased. You must listen to him". I firmly believe that Jesus is God's Son.

And I think that God, through the Scriptures, makes that pretty plain.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Runningman]

If you agreed that God brought all things into existence through and by and for Jesus we would be in agreement we are not like minded in that outlook. You think Paul exaggerated the glory Jesus had with the Father before the world began.

I agree with what the Bible says, rightly divided, not with what you say. You aren't saying what scripture does. Are you going to deal with Acts 4 where Jesus isn't the sovereign Lord and Creator, but rather His servant?

You mean like before Abraham was born and does this offend you then what if you see me ascend to where I was before and glorify in your "presence" with the glory I had with you before the world began or that He spoke to us of things He saw in His Fathers "presence" or He was a eyewitness of Satan's fall from heaven.

I don't interpret them as literal since there are no examples of a Jesus. Son, Messiah, etc actually saying or doing anything prior to his birth. There is no information about the person you are claiming is God doing anything pre-birth in the Bible. That's concerning isn't it?

You have the Apostles testimony in addition to His in many statements of His glory with the Father in the beginning.
Ephesians 4:10
He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.

That isn't about Jesus, it's about YHWH.

Psalm 68
18You have ascended on high;
You have led captives away.
You have received gifts from men,
even from the rebellious,
that the LORD God may dwell there.

That's a not honest statement. You are following another spirit.

Yes it is an honest statement. You are following a different spirit.

Born from the Father before all things.

Only in foreknowledge.

He is all that the Father is and its the Fathers nature that was gifted to Him Col 1:19
And a distinction was made in the glory He received from the Father then from what we received from the Father as He blessed us with every spiritual blessing in Christ
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have come to fullness in him, who is the head of every ruler and authority

And yes is not directly called God. Don't inject "he's God" into the scripture where the verses simply don't say it.

If thats included in the english translation but the witness is of the very same "life" that appeared -Jesus. The importance is in the word eternal "life"
Net Bible
This is what we proclaim to you:[a] what was from the beginning,[b] what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and our hands have touched (concerning the word of life— 2 and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and announce[c] to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us).[d] 3 What we have seen and heard we announce[e] to you too, so that[f] you may have fellowship[g] with us (and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ). 4 Thus[h] we are writing these things so that[i] our[j] joy may be complete.[

The life that was with the Father (an it) was manifested as a man named Jesus (a he.) There isn't someone named the Word who pre-existed. The Word isn't a he and an it.

I believe in one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ

Then stop calling Jesus God.

I believe it is the fullness of the Fathers Deity that was gifted to dwell in the Son. Col 1:19 God from true God. The Son's nature is all the fullness of God the "Father".

And as already stated the fullness of God can dwell in Christians.

You believe in a glorified man.

Men are glorified, not deified.

You invite me to join your unbelief. I decline. I may have to stop the debate as I have no desire to go in circles all day every day with you.

What do I not believe? Yes, I was also considering I am wasting time with you.

The firstborn from the dead means the first to rise from the dead. Given the Supremacy.
The firstborn of all creation means?
The beginning of the creation of God means?

Those resurrected from the dead are Sons of God. Jesus was the first.

Romans 1
4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Luke 20
36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

That means Jesus was created.

You thing that all that belongs to the Father is yours as well? Doesn't the body of Christ belong to Him alone.

So there you go again making the error of going to far when the Bible speaks of absolutes. So when the Bible says "we are heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ" it doesn't necessarily mean every single last minuscule thing we inherit. Obviously we don't inherit God's power and omniscience, omnipotence, Lordship, etc.

All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

Once again, you're going too far into the "all things." There is a specific context this speaks to. For example, Jesus did not have omniscience or omnipotence as God did.

I read that is was. John, Hebrews 1; 1 Corinthians 8:6.

1 Corinthians 8:6.... read it again.... One God the Father.

Context Context
Is Jesus God?
He never dies.

So Jesus didn't die on the cross?

Yes, He is all that the Father is

Nor according to the scripture I have been showing you.

No, He has always been the Son

Proof?

Jesus has life in Himself. The Fathers nature

Of course! I am glad you believe this much.

I never stated Jesus was a glorified man you did.
So how so?

Romans 8
17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with what the Bible says, rightly divided, not with what you say. You aren't saying what scripture does. Are you going to deal with Acts 4 where Jesus isn't the sovereign Lord and Creator, but rather His servant?


I don't interpret them as literal since there are no examples of a Jesus. Son, Messiah, etc actually saying or doing anything prior to his birth. There is no information about the person you are claiming is God doing anything pre-birth in the Bible. That's concerning isn't it?

That isn't about Jesus, it's about YHWH.

Psalm 68
18You have ascended on high;
You have led captives away.
You have received gifts from men,
even from the rebellious,
that the LORD God may dwell there.


Yes it is an honest statement. You are following a different spirit.


Only in foreknowledge.


And yes is not directly called God. Don't inject "he's God" into the scripture where the verses simply don't say it.


The life that was with the Father (an it) was manifested as a man named Jesus (a he.) There isn't someone named the Word who pre-existed. The Word isn't a he and an it.

Then stop calling Jesus God.


And as already stated the fullness of God can dwell in Christians.


Men are glorified, not deified.


What do I not believe? Yes, I was also considering I am wasting time with you.


Those resurrected from the dead are Sons of God. Jesus was the first.

Romans 1
4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Luke 20
36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.


That means Jesus was created.


So there you go again making the error of going to far when the Bible speaks of absolutes. So when the Bible says "we are heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ" it doesn't necessarily mean every single last minuscule thing we inherit. Obviously we don't inherit God's power and omniscience, omnipotence, Lordship, etc.

Once again, you're going too far into the "all things." There is a specific context this speaks to. For example, Jesus did not have omniscience or omnipotence as God did.

1 Corinthians 8:6.... read it again.... One God the Father.

So Jesus didn't die on the cross?


Nor according to the scripture I have been showing you.


Proof?

Of course! I am glad you believe this much.


Romans 8
17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

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[Free]

I actually agree with that. I go with what God says of His own mouth, who Jesus is. "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased. You must listen to him". I firmly believe that Jesus is God's Son.

And I think that God, through the Scriptures, makes that pretty plain.

God bless,
Ted

Trinitarianism fully affirms that Jesus is the Son of God. Being the Son of God in no way precludes him from also being truly God in nature. In fact, I know of no son that is of a different nature than his father. Seeing as how the human relationship of father and son is derived from and analogous to the Father and Son relationship that God reveals, it stands to reason that the Son is of the very same nature as the Father. If they are of a different nature, then the use of Father and Son tells us nothing about their relationship; what is meant by it is unknowable.

 

[miamited]

Hi Free

that the Son is of the very same nature as the Father.

I fully agree with that. In fact that's what the Scriptures tell us. But it doesn't mean that Jesus is God.

Look here are my two reasons for not understanding that Jesus is God. First, God cannot die. Jesus died! Then, according to the Scriptures, God raised him from the dead. That was God's example to us that He can do what He has promised to do for us. He will raise us up from the dead, just as He did His Son.

Second, the Scriptures also declare that we will be just like him. That Jesus is the firstborn from the dead. Again, God cannot die and so if Jesus is God, how did he die?

God bless,
Ted

 

[Free]

Hi Free

I fully agree with that. In fact that's what the Scriptures tell us. But it doesn't mean that Jesus is God.

It can only mean that Jesus is God. Only God can have the nature of God.

Look here are my two reasons for not understanding that Jesus is God. First, God cannot die. Jesus died! Then, according to the Scriptures, God raised him from the dead. That was God's example to us that He can do what He has promised to do for us. He will raise us up from the dead, just as He did His Son.

First, yes, God cannot die but Jesus was both God and man. His body was fully human. Second, Jesus said he would raise himself:

Jhn 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” (ESV)

Jhn 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” (ESV)

So, we have both the Father and the Son saying they raised Jesus from the dead.

Second, the Scriptures also declare that we will be just like him. That Jesus is the firstborn from the dead.

Whatever it means that we will be like Jesus, it at least means that we will have glorified physical bodies. But, it does not mean we will have the same nature as the Father, which he has.

Again, God cannot die and so if Jesus is God, how did he die?

Answered above. See Phil 2:5-8.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I agree with what the Bible says, rightly divided, not with what you say. You aren't saying what scripture does. Are you going to deal with Acts 4 where Jesus isn't the sovereign Lord and Creator, but rather His servant?

No you don't. You agree with the Mormons who deny the deity of Christ. The title "servant" in Acts. 4:27 is explained in Phil. 4:5-11, which you ignore.

 

[miamited]

Hi Free,

Yes, but then you have to read vs. 9

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,

God exalted His Son to the highest place. God did that. God raised Jesus from the dead. God did that. God gave Jesus the very words that he spoke to us. God did that. Jesus is God's one and only begotten Son. That's how God refers to Jesus. God is Jesus' Father, that's how Jesus refers to Him. I'm sticking with that.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi Free

It can only mean that Jesus is God. Only God can have the nature of God.

That may be the only thing it can mean to you, and I'm ok with that if it is your understanding. But no, we are all striving for the nature of God, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus' prayer to God was that we (you and I) be one with him as he is one with the Father. Jesus seems to think that we're going to be just like him and just like God, in our nature.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Hi Free
That may be the only thing it can mean to you, and I'm ok with that if it is your understanding. But no, we are all striving for the nature of God, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus' prayer to God was that we (you and I) be one with him as he is one with the Father. Jesus seems to think that we're going to be just like him and just like God, in our nature.

God bless,
Ted

Actually, the OP argues for the UNIQUENESS of Christ compared to other divine beings called "sons of God" in Gen. 6:4 and Job 1:6, this much is clearly suggested through the word "only", regardless of what "begotten" or "son" means to you. His primary focus is on translation, not theology.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

No you don't. You agree with the Mormons who deny the deity of Christ. The title "servant" in Acts. 4:27 is explained in Phil. 4:5-11, which you ignore.

Correction: Phil 2:5-11. Not 4.

 

[miamited]

Actually, the OP argues for the UNIQUENESS of Christ compared to other divine beings called "sons of God" in Gen. 6:4 and Job 1:6, this much is clearly suggested through the word "only", regardless of what "begotten" or "son" means to you. His primary focus is on translation, not theology.

Hi Carry_Your_Name

That may well be all that they are arguing, but the title says: unique NOT only begotten.

So, I'm not sure your understanding of the OP's intent is correct. However, if it is as you say, I've already agreed that Jesus is absolutely unique. I will gladly proclaim that there is no one like Jesus.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Randy]

I agree with what the Bible says, rightly divided, not with what you say. You aren't saying what scripture does. Are you going to deal with Acts 4 where Jesus isn't the sovereign Lord and Creator, but rather His servant?

Yet most everyone here disagrees with your denial of the preexistence of the Son as a being as well as the nature found in Him. (all the fullness of God the Father) We have given scripture over and over to support such beliefs and you rejected all of them from John, Hebrews, Paul. Jesus has been shown to be the Fathers Son and that before the world began which God brought into existence through Him. You deny His Supremacy in regard to the creation and His preexistence before the creation. Those are Christian beliefs based off what the NT states of Him therefore the conclusion is you have another teacher which you have chosen to follow and its one not from above.

I don't interpret them as literal since there are no examples of a Jesus. Son, Messiah, etc actually saying or doing anything prior to his birth. There is no information about the person you are claiming is God doing anything pre-birth in the Bible. That's concerning isn't it?

You make this statement after given several scriptures from John, Hebrews, Paul that state otherwise.
I do believe this about My Lord.
The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful.
Christ Jesus States before being in that body- The Word became flesh.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.

That isn't about Jesus, it's about YHWH.

No we are discussing His Son -Is there anybody here who doesn't believe the Father is God?

Psalm 68
18You have ascended on high;
You have led captives away.
You have received gifts from men,
even from the rebellious,
that the LORD God may dwell there.

Who ascended except the one who descended.
He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.
Jesus-“Does this offend you? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! This is given in regard to His testimony about the living bread which came down from Heaven.

Yes it is an honest statement. You are following a different spirit.

Yes I am The Spirit of God.

Only in foreknowledge.


And yes is not directly called God. Don't inject "he's God" into the scripture where the verses simply don't say it.

Everybody knows He is called God in scripture but not everyone believes it.
I know this understanding from above -Jesus is all that the Father is. And thats not revelation as you will find that teaching in the NT.

The life that was with the Father (an it) was manifested as a man named Jesus (a he.) There isn't someone named the Word who pre-existed. The Word isn't a he and an it.

Jesus came down from heaven as He is a He. The life that appeared and was testified to as that same and still eternal life that was with the Father in the beginning.

Then stop calling Jesus God.

The Father calls Jesus God it is therefore lawful to refer to His Son as God. They are ONE.

And as already stated the fullness of God can dwell in Christians.

And I have shown the distinction made by that same Apostle between those who have received the gift of the Spirit vs the Son in whom all the fullness of the Father was pleased to dwell.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and in Christ you have been brought to fullness.

Men are glorified, not deified.

The meaning is clear to me -"return to me the glory I had with you before the world began"
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

What do I not believe? Yes, I was also considering I am wasting time with you.

In regard to your outreach agenda I have declined to join you in your unbelief. I tell you I know My Lord and who He was before the world began and so He has made me a rock in that and you nor anyone can ever change that outlook so if that's your purpose you are wasting your time.

Those resurrected from the dead are Sons of God. Jesus was the first.

Those who are born of God have been given the right to be called the children of God. All those the Father gives Jesus will come to Him and it is His Fathers will that HE raise them up on the last day.

Romans 1
4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes and?

Luke 20
36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

Jesus is the true vine that norishes the branches found in Him and He does have life in Himself. The Fathers Deity without limit. A Son who is called Mighty God and is the imprint of Gods very being. Does this offend you?

That means Jesus was created.

So there you go again making the error of going to far when the Bible speaks of absolutes. So when the Bible says "we are heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ" it doesn't necessarily mean every single last minuscule thing we inherit. Obviously we don't inherit God's power and omniscience, omnipotence, Lordship, etc.

Once again, you're going too far into the "all things." There is a specific context this speaks to. For example, Jesus did not have omniscience or omnipotence as God did.

The context was given. He is before all things. The firstborn of all creation and all those things God brought into existence in, through, by and for Him. Things on earth and things in heaven. Visible and invisible. He has the Supremacy in regard to the creation, the church and the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 8:6.... read it again.... One God the Father.

And One Lord Jesus Christ "through whom" all things came.

So Jesus didn't die on the cross?

Put to death in the flesh but not the spirit. Man has been appointed "once" to die. Jesus suffered that death.
Man can kill the body but only God can kill the soul.
Likewise those that live by believing in Him never die.
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Nor according to the scripture I have been showing you.

I believe ALL that is written of Him. I don't just post, "the man Jesus Christ" and then ignore all else that is written about the one who came down from heaven from the Fathers presence as the only such eyewitness of His Majesty.

Proof?

Of course! I am glad you believe this much.

I haven given you many scriptures as have others but you reject them all. Let them speak to you.

Romans 8
17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Romans 8 does not negate the testimony about the Son who was before the world began. One in whom all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. The only such Son of the Father. God provided that lamb out of His love for the world.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Free

I fully agree with that. In fact that's what the Scriptures tell us. But it doesn't mean that Jesus is God.

Look here are my two reasons for not understanding that Jesus is God. First, God cannot die. Jesus died! Then, according to the Scriptures, God raised him from the dead. That was God's example to us that He can do what He has promised to do for us. He will raise us up from the dead, just as He did His Son.

Second, the Scriptures also declare that we will be just like him. That Jesus is the firstborn from the dead. Again, God cannot die and so if Jesus is God, how did he die?

God bless,
Ted

Ted

1. Jesus was raised from the dead to show that He was truly the Son, God, Who said in the OT that He, God, would save us Himself.

2. Jesus was also human 100%.

This is why it's imperative to understand the Trinity and the hypoststic union.

 

[miamited]

Ted

1. Jesus was raised from the dead to show that He was truly the Son, God, Who said in the OT that He, God, would save us Himself.

2. Jesus was also human 100%.

This is why it's imperative to understand the Trinity and the hypoststic union.

Hi GodsGrace

I don't have any argument with that truth. I am in total agreement with your post.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again GodsGrace

There is a Son, who is part of the godhead. Then there is God, the one who raised that God from the dead.

God bless,
Ted

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi again GodsGrace

There is a Son, who is part of the godhead. Then there is God, the one who raised that God from the dead.

God bless,
Ted

As long as the Son is part of the Godhead, I'm good.

I would like to ask you though....

Redemption requires all three Persons...

How do you feel about the resurrection requiring all 3 Persons?
I asked once (can't remember who but someone that should know) which Person raised Jesus or did He raise Himself.
The reply was all 3.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi again GodsGrace

There is a Son, who is part of the godhead. Then there is God, the one who raised that God from the dead.

God bless,
Ted

A couple of links I just looked up. (I'm not reformed).

Jesus Raised Jesus from the Dead — And Why It Matters

A one-of-a-kind death, and a one-of-a-kind resurrection, has been carried out by this one-of-a-kind Person who is more valuable than all else.

www.desiringgod.org

Who Brought Jesus Back from the Dead?

The Bible has much to say about the mode of Jesus resurrection. It testifies that the three members of the Trinity were involved in Jesus resurrection. God

www.blueletterbible.org

I haven't read the articles and can't right now.
Give your opinion.
Thanks.

 

[miamited]

As long as the Son is part of the Godhead, I'm good.

I would like to ask you though....

Redemption requires all three Persons...

How do you feel about the resurrection requiring all 3 Persons?
I asked once (can't remember who but someone that should know) which Person raised Jesus or did He raise Himself.
The reply was all 3.

Hi GodsGrace

I have always believed that it takes the working of the three persons of the Godhead to save anyone. First, Jesus is the one that paid the price that we may even think to be saved. Secondly, the Holy Spirit, as I believe Paul wrote, is the 'required' deposit that guides us in our understanding and ability to strive to live a godly life, also as Paul encourages us. Thirdly, just as the Scriptures also seem to make clear, it is God who will actually save us. It is God, who on judgment day will open the books as, Jesus, His one and only begotten Son stands at the right hand side of the Father and acts as our mediator. Which the Scriptures also tell us was the one who raised Jesus from the dead.

I must say, you're a lot more interesting to discuss with than some others. Certainly more civil.

God bless,
Ted

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi GodsGrace

I have always believed that it takes the working of the three persons of the Godhead to save anyone. First, Jesus is the one that paid the price that we may even think to be saved. Secondly, the Holy Spirit, as I believe Paul wrote, is the 'required' deposit that guides us in our understanding and ability to strive to live a godly life, also as Paul encourages us. Thirdly, just as the Scriptures also seem to make clear, it is God who will actually save us. It is God, who on judgment day will open the books as, Jesus, His one and only begotten Son stands at the right hand side of the Father and acts as our mediator. Which the Scriptures also tell us was the one who raised Jesus from the dead.

I must say, you're a lot more interesting to discuss with than some others. Certainly more civil.

God bless,
Ted

Thanks Ted. Civility makes for good conversation.

Here's my understanding of salvation:

God Father
draws everyone to Himself.
Those that choose to say Yes, the Father will give to Jesus.
John 6:44 (?)

God Son
Jesus takes everyone and denies no one.
He is the actual Savior that died for us.
He will cast out no one.


God The Holy Spirit,
as you said, will guide us, comfort us and be our paraclete.