Unraveling Revelation: There Were Giants in the Earth in Those Days

[hawkman]

No, some from Shem.

We are NOT to speculate. God says what He means and means what He says. There are variations in human`s size, colour, etc etc. Otherwise, it seems that you are saying all giant people are demonic.

Giants in the Bible are Nephilim , fallen ones . The offspring of the fallen angels and the daughters of men .

The Nephilim (Giants) are Satan's ground troops , notice how Giants are spread out all over the promised land when the Israelites arrive with Moses . No coincidence . Satan knew where the promised land was .

This is the "seed" war between Satan's seed and God's seed we are told about in Gen 3 .
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

If you would like to talk about the demonic we can but it is different from the fallen .

 

[Hidden In Him]

And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 6-7

Notice these angels who left their own abode are associated with sexual immorality.

This is an excellent point, IMO, because the entire letter of Jude (and 2nd Peter as well, upon which it is based) was addressing the sexual immortality being promoted by the Gnostics.

This is why Jude first brings up those who escaped from Egypt but then turned. Why and how did they turn? They got seduced back into Egyptian idolatry in the worship of the golden calf, the story of which suggests sexual misconduct was already in the making when the Lord moved from Mt.Sinai to destroy them ("they sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play"). Same thing goes for Sodom and Gomorrah, and the angels who left their heavenly estates. Jewish tradition was consistent in teaching that they succumbed sexual temptation and sexual intercourse with women, which likewise led to their spiritual demise.

Sexual immorality is specifically what is being cautioned against in 2nd Peter and Jude, and it is key to understanding specifically what they were referring to in passages like Jude 1:6-7.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Angels are spirit form and have no genitals or sperm in order to get a woman pregnant. Angels have no gender (Matthew 22:30) and are innumerable (Hebrews 12:22). They are incarnate in human form at times (Genesis 18:2-8) for the purpose of ministry.

Hi FHG, and good afternoon.

All the above is true, but this argument (I'm speaking of the sons of Seth argument in general, not yours specifically) never addresses the issue of CAN angels manifest in a physical form if they so choose to, particularly if they rebel against God. I think the strongest scriptural support for the idea they can is found in this narrative right here, and again it was the consistent opinion of antiquity that it not only could happen but did. The interpretation they were merely humans came much later.

 

[Marilyn C]

`God who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshipped with men`s hands as though He needed anything, since He gives to ALL life, breath, and all things.

And He has made from ONE BLOOD every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has predetermined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,...` (Acts 17: 24 - 26)

So Hidden and hawkman, where is the room for Satan`s bloodline or any individual fallen angel`s so called race of people?

 

[JLB]

This is speaking about the corruption of man as to the corruption of fallen angels facing eternal fire as the judgement of God. Notice it says the angels in like manner being those who have fallen away from God and says nothing about angels having sex with females.

And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 6-7

Notice that the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, are associated with sexual immorality.

Peter also confirms that it was angels in the days of Noah, who sinned and were eventually cast down to hell.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
2 Peter 2:4-5

Can you please tell us what was the “sin” that the angels committed during the days of Noah, that caused them to be cast down to hell?



JLB

 

[Marilyn C]

THE 2 SEEDS.

`And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your (Satan`s) seed and her Seed; (Christ) He (Christ) shall bruise your head and you shall bruise His feet. ` (Gen. 3: 15)



CHRIST IS THE SEED OF THE WOMAN

First Christ had to be manifest as a human. Thus, Christ is the Seed of the woman.

`Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary, your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.` (Matt. 1: 20)

`…a body you have prepared for me…` (Heb. 10: 5)



CHRIST PRODUCING SEED

However, Christ did not produce children physically by having relations with a woman. The physical is of the dust and is corrupt.

`The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.` (1 Cor. 15: 42)

Jesus said –

`Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.

For out of the heart proceed evil thought, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.` (Matt. 15:17 – 19)



This is how Christ produces children, His seed.

`Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a king of first-fruits of His creatures. ` (James 1: 18)



And Christ gives of His very own divine nature to us –

`Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and virtue,

by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.` (2 Peter 1: 2 – 4)


SATAN`S SEED.

The `seed` of Satan is not physical. The physical body is corrupt and will go to the grave – return to dust.

The `seed` of Satan is sown in the heart. That is why Jesus called the Pharisees of their Father the devil. They were human but because their heart`s were evil they were of Satan.

`You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar, and the father of it.` (John 8: 44)



The theory that Satan and fallen angels can give life and have physical children is a lie. To believe that is opening one`s self to Satan`s lies. This gives him access to our minds and we then hear him more than God`s word of truth. Very dangerous.

 

[Hidden In Him]

`God who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshipped with men`s hands as though He needed anything, since He gives to ALL life, breath, and all things.

And He has made from ONE BLOOD every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has predetermined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,...` (Acts 17: 24 - 26)

So Hidden and hawkman, where is the room for Satan`s bloodline or any individual fallen angel`s so called race of people?

I could pick that up if I have time later, but I think it was Hawk you were into a discussion on bloodlines with : )

 

[Hidden In Him]

The theory that Satan and fallen angels can give life and have physical children is a lie. To believe that is opening one`s self to Satan`s lies. This gives him access to our minds and we then hear him more than God`s word of truth. Very dangerous.

But you then have to assert this about all the saints of the Old Testament, and the writers of the New Testament as well. That's kinda the point. You are saying all the major contributors to scripture were opening themselves to Satan's lies. I don't believe that, Marilyn. It's way too drastic a position to take.

 

[Free]

In Genesis 4, we see the line of Cain:

Gen 4:17 Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. When he built a city, he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch.
Gen 4:18 To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad fathered Mehujael, and Mehujael fathered Methushael, and Methushael fathered Lamech.
Gen 4:19 And Lamech took two wives. The name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
Gen 4:20 Adah bore Jabal; he was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock.
Gen 4:21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe.
Gen 4:22 Zillah also bore Tubal-cain; he was the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron. The sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.
Gen 4:23 Lamech said to his wives: “Adah and Zillah, hear my voice; you wives of Lamech, listen to what I say: I have killed a man for wounding me, a young man for striking me.
Gen 4:24 If Cain's revenge is sevenfold, then Lamech's is seventy-sevenfold.” (ESV)

Lamech was evil, in the way of Cain but much worse. And, yes, that contrasts with Seth's line:

Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth, for she said, “God has appointed for me another offspring instead of Abel, for Cain killed him.”
Gen 4:26 To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time people began to call upon the name of the LORD.

Gen 5:22 Enoch walked with God after he fathered Methuselah 300 years and had other sons and daughters.
Gen 5:23 Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years.
Gen 5:24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.
Gen 5:25 When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he fathered Lamech.
Gen 5:26 Methuselah lived after he fathered Lamech 782 years and had other sons and daughters.
Gen 5:27 Thus all the days of Methuselah were 969 years, and he died.
Gen 5:28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he fathered a son
Gen 5:29 and called his name Noah, saying, “Out of the ground that the LORD has cursed, this one shall bring us relief from our work and from the painful toil of our hands.” (ESV)

Gen 6:8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God. (ESV)

Right from the start Cain's line was evil and Seth's line "began to call upon the name of the LORD." Note the repetition in 5:22 and 5:24, and then the very same is said of Noah in 6:9.

Notice where chapter 6 starts, after giving lineages of Cain and Seth in the preceding two chapters, which I have provided:

Gen 6:1 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them,
Gen 6:2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. (ESV)

What we should note here is that this is not really "when man began to multiply," as they had clearly been multiplying for well over a thousand years, but rather it could be speaking of a specific group of people, namely, Cain's lineage or of an increase in multiplying generally. When we get to verse 2--"the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose."--we have as the immediate context the lineages of Cain and Seth as well as at least one of them multiplying.

While "sons of God" is used of angels in the OT, that is fraught with difficulty, not the least of which is the apparent inability of angels to procreate, according to Jesus (Matt. 22:30). That Jesus says "angels in heaven" is irrelevant as to whether those angels are elsewhere. To suggest that angels "on earth" can multiply and those in heaven cannot, is rather nonsensical. It would also suggest that they not only have the equipment to do so but also the genetic ability to do so, which means that angels have the creative power that God alone has--the ability to create ex nihilo--as they would have to be able to create for themselves all that is necessary. But, that is to go far beyond Scripture.

Rather, we should look elsewhere in the Bible to see if there is another legitimate understanding of "sons of God." And so we find the following:

Deu 32:4 “The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
Deu 32:5 They have dealt corruptly with him; they are no longer his children because they are blemished; they are a crooked and twisted generation.
Deu 32:6 Do you thus repay the LORD, you foolish and senseless people? Is not he your father, who created you, who made you and established you? (ESV)

Quite significant that those who are faithful to God are his children and those who are corrupt, "blemished," and "crooked and twisted" are "no longer his children."

Psa 73:15 If I had said, “I will speak thus,” I would have betrayed the generation of your children. (ESV)

Psa 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;
Psa 82:7 nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince.” (ESV)

The above is speaking of judges who were God's representatives but chose to judge unjustly, and so they would die "like men."

Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, “Children of the living God.” (ESV)

So, we can clearly see that "sons of God" can legitimately refer to those who are godly, those who are God's representatives on earth. In the case of Gen. 6:2, "the sons of God" are, or can legitimately be, those who "call upon the name of the LORD."

Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. (ESV)

Similar to verse 1, "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days . . . when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them," does not mean that the Nephilim were the offspring, but can legitimately be understood as saying that "the Nephilim were [already] on the earth in those days." That is, the Nephilim are not the offspring of "the sons of God" and "the daughters of man."

 

[Marilyn C]

But you then have to assert this about all the saints of the Old Testament, and the writers of the New Testament as well. That's kinda the point. You are saying all the major contributors to scripture were opening themselves to Satan's lies. I don't believe that, Marilyn. It's way too drastic a position to take.

You have not addressed to what the Lord has said regarding how people are of Satan`s seed?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Angels are spirit form and have no genitals or sperm in order to get a woman pregnant. Angels have no gender (Matthew 22:30) and are innumerable (Hebrews 12:22). They are incarnate in human form at times (Genesis 18:2-8) for the purpose of ministry.

When they are incarnate, they are able to leave their "proper domain" and copulate with women other than "purpose of ministry". You view angels as programmed robots, I don't.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What we should note here is that this is not really "when man began to multiply," as they had clearly been multiplying for well over a thousand years, but rather it could be speaking of a specific group of people, namely, Cain's lineage or of an increase in multiplying generally. When we get to verse 2--"the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose."--we have as the immediate context the lineages of Cain and Seth as well as at least one of them multiplying.

What you should note here is that you're using a corrupted translation, "NOW it came to pass" is omitted. It never came to pass in any previous generations before Gen. 6:1.

Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them ... (NKJV)
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them ... (KJV)
Now it came about, when mankind began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, (NASB)
Then the people began to multiply on the earth, and daughters were born to them. (NLT)

While "sons of God" is used of angels in the OT, that is fraught with difficulty, not the least of which is the apparent inability of angels to procreate, according to Jesus (Matt. 22:30).

Already debunked. The context in Matt. 22:30 is angels in HEAVEN, not on earth. When angels appeared in human form on earth, they do have the ability.

Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom ... (Gen. 19:1)
“Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.”(Gen. 19:5)

To suggest that angels "on earth" can multiply and those in heaven cannot, is rather nonsensical. It would also suggest that they not only have the equipment to do so but also the genetic ability to do so, which means that angels have the creative power that God alone has--the ability to create ex nihilo--as they would have to be able to create for themselves all that is necessary.

To ignore the context "angels of God IN HEAVEN" is nonsensical. A sign of cognitive disonance, the mental discomfort when confronting clear evidence and facts contrary to one's deeply embedded beliefs.

But, that is to go far beyond Scripture.

What's going far beyond the Scripture is baselessly speculation that "sons of God" were righteous descendants of Seth and "daughters of man" were wicked descendants of Cain.

Quite significant that those who are faithful to God are his children and those who are corrupt, "blemished," and "crooked and twisted" are "no longer his children."

Where are "those who are faithful to God" in this context, exactly? And what does that have anything to do with the pre-flood world? Where Noah alone was righteous, everybody else was crooked and twisted, whether they were descendants of Seth or Cain?

So, we can clearly see that "sons of God" can legitimately refer to those who are godly, those who are God's representatives on earth. In the case of Gen. 6:2, "the sons of God" are, or can legitimately be, those who "call upon the name of the LORD."

No, they neither are nor can legitimately be. Calling upon the name of the Lord doesn't make the caller godly; even if they were godly, there had been seven generations and more than a thousand years from Enosh to Noah, godliness was not something that can be passed down through genes. In Noah's generation, everybody was evil to the core, nobody was calling upon the name of the Lord, even Noah himself didn't "call upon the name of the Lord", the Lord called him first in 6:13.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. (Matt. 7:21)
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Gen. 6:5)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Similar to verse 1, "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days . . . when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them," does not mean that the Nephilim were the offspring, but can legitimately be understood as saying that "the Nephilim were [already] on the earth in those days." That is, the Nephilim are not the offspring of "the sons of God" and "the daughters of man."

You're distorting the word of God by reversing the order. The copulation with women took place FIRST in 6:2, which sets the background that predates the giants. In the case of Gen. 6:4, "WHEN" indicates this background referring to 6:2, same as "those days", of which the hallmark was this copulation. It doesn't say "when giants were on the earth in those days, sons of God took wives", but "WHEN sons of God took wives, there was giants". Giants didn't appear in 6:1-3, they were not a pre-existing condition, they only appeared in 6:4 as the result of the copulation. When Jesus used "those days" as an example, he didn't mention the giants, he mentioned this copulation, i.e. "marrying and giving in marriage".

The sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. (Gen. 6:2)
There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, WHEN the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. (Gen. 6:4)
For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark ... (Matt. 24:38)

 

[RedPill]

..."all flesh was corrupted" (Gen. 6:12).

That is reading into the text. It is only speaking of humans.

I wish it was. Rather, "all flesh" = bāśār :

1. flesh
   1. of the body
      1. of humans
      2. of animals
   2. the body itself
   3. male organ of generation (euphemism)
   4. kindred, blood-relations
   5. flesh as frail or erring (man against God)
   6. all living things
   7. animals
   8. mankind

source

"And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature." (Num. 13:32).

No, to suggest cannibalism is to completely misread the verse. It clearly states “a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof,” not “giants that eateth up the inhabitants.” Notice even that “thereof” speaks of location, hence “a land.”

Rather "a land" = 'ereṣ :

1. land, earth
   1. earth
      1. whole earth (as opposed to a part)
      2. earth (as opposed to heaven)
      3. earth (inhabitants)
   2. land
      1. country, territory
      2. district, region
      3. tribal territory
      4. piece of ground
      5. land of Canaan, Israel
      6. inhabitants of land
      7. Sheol, land without return, (under) world
      8. city (-state)
   3. ground, surface of the earth
      1. ground
      2. soil
   4. (in phrases)
      1. people of the land
      2. space or distance of country (in measurements of distance)
      3. level or plain country
      4. land of the living
      5. end(s) of the earth
   5. (almost wholly late in usage)
      1. lands, countries
         1. often in contrast to Canaan

source

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Notice it says the angels in like manner being those who have fallen away from God and says nothing about angels having sex with females. God created the angels as spirit form unlike man in physical form that can be sexual active.

No, it doesn't say that. "Them" therein are the townsfolks of Sodom and Gomorrah, NOT angels; these fornicators were being COMPARED with the insubordinate angels in the previous verse, that's what "like manner" means - resembling the wicked angels' manner of "leaving their proper domain".

 

[Hidden In Him]

You have not addressed to what the Lord has said regarding how people are of Satan`s seed?

Correct. My answer for that would be too extensive for the current discussion. I don't really have time right now, so hope you understand.

 

[RedPill]

What you should note here is that you're using a corrupted translation...

Indeed. This is the nexus of much larger problems.

 

[Marilyn C]

Jesus said it is not the physical body that defiles but the heart.

`Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.

For out of the heart proceed evil thought, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.` (Matt. 15:17 – 19)

Then Jesus said to the Pharisees that their lies came from their father the devil.

`You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar, and the father of it.` (John 8: 44)

Basic - By their fruits you shall know them. (Matt. 7: 20)

 

[for_his_glory]

Notice that the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, are associated with sexual immorality.

I see this as a comparison of sin and not associated with sexual immortality.

son's of God is used many times in scripture to refer to men (not angels) such as Genesis 5:1, 2 and Luke 3:38 calling Adam the son of God. Adam was the first son followed by Seth and then his son Enos and the family began to call on God, Genesis 4:26. These are the first sons of God mentioned in Genesis 6. Sons of God have always been followers, believers and worshipers of God. Man was created in the image of God in His likeness for the purpose of having dominion over the earth and to multiply the earth as male and female created he them, Genesis 1:26-28. Nowhere does it say that angels were involved with multiplying or having any dominion over the earth as Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25 makes it clear that angels do not marry nor are given in marriage so in fact they also can not procreate.

​

 

[JLB]

I see this as a comparison of sin and not associated with sexual immortality.

The sin called out by Jude is sexual immorality.

The ones Jude calls out are angels... specifically the angels who did not keep their proper domain, which is heaven, the spirit realm, but left their own abode.

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:6-7

This plainly refers to the angels in the days of Noah, as Peter confirms.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-6

Again, the evidence is clear. Peter refers to angels who sinned during the days of Noah, and further examples Sodom and Gomorrah, because what the angels did is likened to the perversion of Sodom and Gomorrah.


I will ask you one last time.


What was the sin that the angels committed during the days of Noah that caused them to be cast down to hell?

• if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah,