Vegan Questions and Answers

[cubedbee]

my point is that, as a vegan, i see a difference between localy produced and slaughtered meat and meat from chain groceries stores. this difference can clearly be seen by the effects and by following the trail of the money which is spent on it. this is what i'm interested in and this is how i encourage friends to shop. i would rather they buy meat localy through a small business from a farm they can visit than hand their money over to big business(and at the expensive of billions of animals per anum, etc etc). this is really what i wanted to talk about with this thread. i don't say to my friends "don't eat meat". instead i offer them what i make for dinner and, if they're hungry, they'll try it.

how many people here support their local farmers markets and co-ops?

I can get behind this. You're a much more reasonable vegan that some we've seen. This site http://www.certifiedhumane.com/index.html has a list of places you can buy humanely raised food, some of the places being big chains like Whole Foods.

 

[Tofuy]

I would say that taking care of our body and eating well are good practices, and that God desires for us to do this. I do not believe that the vegan way of eating is opposed to God, but some of the philosophys that get mixed in are.

lovely, what do you think we can do to help others practice better eating? yes, "better" could have a pretty wide definition. i'm just concerned with what feels like overwhelming amounts of indifference towards food and the results on our bodies, our hearts, our earth. i think this leads ultimately to an arrest of spiritual growth. maybe it even IS that arrest of growth.

lovely, when did you decide to go vegan?

Jesus obviously ate animal products...although His were a lot healthier than ours in many respects.

absolutely!

You're a much more reasonable vegan than some we've seen. This site http://www.certifiedhumane.com/index.html has a list of places you can buy humanely raised food, some of the places being big chains like Whole Foods.

thanks for saying that cubedbee(that's tough to write the first time) i really appreciate that. i am trying. i've been a vegan for 8 1/2 years now and the most important thing about being an activist(be it a vegan activist or a christian activist) is how you treat people. doing or supporting things which harm others won't take us very far in life.

that's a great website! in the Whole Foods employee manual they say they are trying to have "the best customer service in the world". not "the country" but "the world". what an admirable goal! i like how they support local economies where they can.

does anyone here know about applegate farms? i know that Cisco distributes them, as do most of the other major distributors. i had my college switch most of their meat to apple gate farms meat after getting enough students to write letters to the head of the food service department. this is kind of the point i was making. all meat production companies are not the same. so this was an example of that.

 

[lovely]

lovely, what do you think we can do to help others practice better eating? yes, "better" could have a pretty wide definition. i'm just concerned with what feels like overwhelming amounts of indifference towards food and the results on our bodies, our hearts, our earth. i think this leads ultimately to an arrest of spiritual growth. maybe it even IS that arrest of growth.

It is nice that you are so concerned.

I think that I can help others practice better eating by teaching my children to do so. We talk about the choices we make, we talk about the way certain foods make us feel, and we talk about the appropriate times to engage in celebratory foods. Also, we cook together and the preparation is fun.

I don't think people are apathetic really, I think they feel like they can not do it. Or, if they have a spouse or children who do not support them, then it is too much of a challenge. People know when they are making a bad choice, and probably try to balance it out later by skipping a meal or something. I think the focus is on appearance too. It should be on health and increasing energy. Our motivation should be to please God and honor Him in all we do, but never in a legalistic sense. If you encourage someone to just do one thing...like give up sugar...let them do that for a while and then they can build upon it. To radically change everthing is ovewhelming and will lead to quitting. And it can be too expensive if you don't learn where to shop. Some families are on a tight budget and cannot afford to eat healthier. The $60.00 a single mom has to spend at Aldi to feed her children for two weeks does not go far.

Clarification: I am not a vegan, but I do go vegan at times. I am not sure that was understood. I first started this after my second pregnancy. I do not carry well, and suffer with severe dehydration and poor nutrition, due to a condition called hyperemisis. Anyway, I was nursing afterwards and could not bounce back. Weeks turned into months...finally, some Christian friends suggested a vegan diet. Well, within a week I felt the difference. Within a month, I was a healthy person again. I spent that week juicing mostly, and fasting. I wanted to eliminate all of the garbage. Then, I started adding in the good stuff. I think the best thing about it for me is I discovered that I probably have an allergy to dairy. I avoid dairy for the most part now. I did the same thing after my third pregnancy and while nursing. I also do it with the children after we suffer a sickness. I also take the Garden of Life multi vitamin.

I think any time we are not healthy it affects us emotionally and spiritually. I don't think we are bound to that, however, because God renews the spirit, not a diet. But in the natural consequences of things...you do better all around when you are taking care of yourself.

Celebrations and food:

I teach my children that we can engage in sweets and such during celebrations. They can have a piece of B-day cake and enjoy it. I do not restrict them during these times, but because of better eating habits, I see that they prefer the better choices. Someone will offer them soda, and I will hear them say, "May I have water, please?" It's mom that needs to get on board that train! :roll: BTW...we have road-trip day once a week and at that time I let them choose some gas station food. Sometimes it's chips or popcorn, but most of the time they have donuts or a yahoo or something. I don't want to restrict them to the point that they want to sneak it later, or abandon it when adults. We make sweet things with maple syrup and peanut butter and such, but sometimes they get the processed stuff.

I also teach them to be good guests and eat what is being served for dinner without complaint or hesitation. They are prettty good at this. I do not want to disrespect our friends and family by having my children not take something because it doesn't fit in with our specific guidlines. I want them to be good guest. Often times, however, our friends and family accomodate us because they know we are trying to eat healthy. I wonder if they would do that if we were in their face about it? Sometimes grandma and grandpa give them treats...or mail them treats...I do not deny them...I regulate them...but I do not ball grandma out, and throw the candy in the trash.

Wow...didn't know I had that much to say about diet. I must confess though...still thinking about the donut threads... :o :-D

 

[Tofuy]

what a wonderful post lovely! thanks for having so much to say. i enjoyed reading it.

it sounds like you're a wonderful mom. how do your kids seem to compare with their peers? are they quieter or louder or no different? do they run around more or run around less? are there any big differences that you've noticed?

People know when they are making a bad choice, and probably try to balance it out later by skipping a meal or something. I think the focus is on appearance too. It should be on health and increasing energy. Our motivation should be to please God and honor Him in all we do, but never in a legalistic sense. If you encourage someone to just do one thing...like give up sugar...let them do that for a while and then they can build upon it. To radically change everthing is ovewhelming and will lead to quitting. And it can be too expensive if you don't learn where to shop.

i agree, mostly. i think that the majority people know the majority of the time when they are making bad decision or a decision that isn't the best one they could've made. i think many people feel this way if they eat 4 hamburgers from mcdonalds when they know 2 would've been ok or not to buy any hamburgers from mcdonalds because they could've gone and supported, say, a local diner.

taking the time to go to a sit-down restaurant where there isn't a drive through option says "i'm important enough to eat less processed food". the time we spend on the things which are good for us show what is important to us. sitting in front of the t.v. for a certain amount of time doesn't count. it says "i'm not important enough to pay attention to myself for this amount of time. finally, a religious argument. spending time reading or discussing the bible is saying "this is important enough and i'm going focus on it". how many people do the same thing for their own lives and ask "is this healthy for me? how so? in what amounts/moderation?" people ask themselves if they want to smoke or if they don't want to smoke. smoking is not the leading cause of preventable death in america, diet related illness is. how many people ask themselves about their health and spend the time to educate themselves and their loved ones, together, about their health? very few. instead, americans eat fast food so they have the time to watch television and that is NOT going to make things better. this is where i believe indifference begins.

i'm wondering if anyone on this forum is even willing to discuss this. i think this attitude of indifference exists on a very wide scale and i think, without examining it, it will affect every aspect of your lives, including any relationship with god. yes, i think that, without examining the issues in great detail of how we live in this world today, we cannot fully experience anything like a relationship with, or the presence of, god.

 

[lovely]

Tofuy wrote

how do your kids seem to compare with their peers? are they quieter or louder or no different? do they run around more or run around less? are there any big differences that you've noticed?

Well, I try not to make comparisons between them and other children. For one, I think a lot of other stuff factors in, along with diet. Other children may not have the same upbringing, and it could impact their behavior negatively or positively as the case may be.

If I compare my oldest son now, to how he was before we changed, he is a whole lot calmer. And given my child rearing techniques haven't changed, I believe I can attribute a large part of it to diet. Of course, as a child grows they mature, so there's that part of it to.

1. When he was very small our pediatrician warned us that medication may be in his future...he never seemed to sleep once we he started eating "real" food. Then, when we changed, he seemed to be able to muster more self-discipline. And to sleep better.

2. I noticed that his hair and his skin looked fresher and healthier too.

3. His taste buds are different from before...I have friends that have nicknamed my children the salad eaters. When we go out to eat at a buffet or something...they start with salad and finish with fruit. And actually prefer water, even when I give them permission to have a sprite or juice. LOL

I believe that their behavior is also affected by several other things. My son was three when we changed our diet, and though behaviorally I could see a change, I also believe that his own growth, and upbringing impacted him as well.

1. Consequences for disobedience. When my children disobey...they are disciplined consistently.

2. Work...they are required to work, physically, and with their minds, daily. They are encouraged to have the attitude that work is good, naturally beneficial, and designed by God. Work most of the time, play some of the time, and rest time is required. Laziness is less than your best, and that's a sin.

4. Positive input. I think that if you take away things like T.V. and video games, and other pop culture entities then you must fill them with something else. Bible study and prayer. Required memorization of scripture and poems. Good books...we have lot's of reading time. Values through mediums such as music and videos. Creativity through art, music, and writing. The list goes on. Cleanliness and manners...through daily practice.

5. Complaining. I think that this is really preventative of a bad attitude, and potentially disruptive and disrespectful behaviors. We are not allowed to complain or whine. If there is a problem, I encourage them to come to me and discuss it, but they know that I have final say. I think they feel respected, and learn to respect others. We have thankful time around our dinner table...you must tell of one thing of which you are thankful, and tell of one thing you are thankful for in each family member.

Anyway, I know diet has impacted all of us, but I don't want to discount these other things. Maybe they are interrelated. Maybe a family that is more conscientious in general has a healthier diet because they have made themselves aware. I certainly think that a child that has a great diet, but has everything else wrong in his life, will not be well behaved or healthy.

 

[Tofuy]

so here's something i never understood about the chrstian history of veganism.

weren't adam and eve vegan in the garden of eden? i think it mentions they specificaly DON'T eat meat there. only after origional sin enters into the picture is meat eating supported.

now i'm not all snappy with quoting scripture. anyone have advice on that? was that a FAQ i missed? maybe someone could quote for me?

 

[Tofuy]

WOW! the magazine American Conservative ran a pretty amazing front page article this last issue. the author was a speach writer for bush.
click here to see the magazine webpage.

if you want to read the 9 page article, download the .pdf from here
it's very well writen, makes several terrific points, and when i heard mathew scully speak the other summer, i was very impressed with his ideas and articulation.

i hope someone comments about it... :-?

 

[lovely]

Hi Tofuy,

I missed your post before this last one on Adam and Eve.

Actually, meat eating came into the picture after the flood of Noah...much later than the fall.

However, the first slaughter of a lamb was after the fall...God did it to clothe Adam and Eve.

Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 10 discuss food a bit. Some believe that if Christ ate it, it is okay...others believe in healthy living because we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Vegetarianism was not the diet that God mandated for the Jews...God would certainly know what is best. I also have heard Christians say that the Garden was ultimately God's best and vegetarinism is the best. These things can be discussed and discussed, but I think the passages I cited above speak to it the best.

The American Conservative.

I liked the article, but I do not find it surprising at all. Many consevatives and Christians...as well as other faiths, are farmers. They do not raise their chickens and pigs in such horrific ways. They do slaughter, and provide meat, but the animals are free-range...and are loved. In Missouri, where I am from, we had a farm. We raised chickens, rabbits, sheep, goats, turkeys, and had several dogs and a cat...who was a wonderful mouser! We provided a beautiful place for them to live. It was healthy and clean. We fed them what was most natural and fresh. We encouraged the mothers to nurse, and we also milked for our own table. Our children were too young to learn to hunt before my husband died, but my husband hunted during season for deer and turkey. Guess what would happen in Missouri if he, and others, didn't? Conservation is very big there. They have an entire education program that most home educators rely on heavily. They also have outdoor classrooms, and teach children to care about the enviroment. The 4H clubs there teach about proper animal care, and other educational skills that are quite useful. Guess who most of the people are taking advantage of all of these resources? I think that the practical, everyday family, does not do the horrific things that the left accuses them of.

We also had an issue with puppy mills in Missouri. The folks doing these horrific things to animals do not represent the Christians who care for their property and animals with a heart to please God.

No, I am not surprised at all, I just think that these people practicing good living, and minding their own business, are not so concerned about the politics of it. They simply practice it, and teach their children to do the same.

Blessings

edited to fix my Scripture references.

 

[guibox]

I find it funny that some people try hard to dispute vegetarianism and bringing up 'soy' issues to discredit vegans or vegetarians. It seems like they are trying hard to justify their meat eating when they really don't have to.

The cold, hard facts meat eaters (and I include myself in that, though I do eat alot of vegetarian food) just plain, old need to accept and quit fighting, is that a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle is healthier, helps weight loss, inreases the immune system to fight diseases, decreases risk of heart disease and cancer and increases longevity.

Other than protein, iron and vitamin B12, meat doesn't have a whole lot going for it to improve or maintain our health and has more disadvantages to our health then benefits. This is another cold hard fact that meat eaters need to just accept.

Many of us as Christians probably fail the whole 'our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit' miserably in terms of the health message and we need to give credit for those who have the discipline to avoid man's carnivorous ways and choose a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle to fit that spiritual mandate.

As an SDA, I feel that I don't live up to our health message (and many others don't).

'You might be an Adventist if you wouldn't think of eating a piece of meat due to the health message but you will scarf down any dessert you can find at potluck' :P

 

[lovely]

Could you tell me what you mean by the "soy" issues, guibox? I do not find myself familiar. I usually just hear things like. "I'm a man, honey, and we require red meat!" LOL

The dessert thing is an excellent point. (and gave me a giggle) I am not SDA, but I do believe in a good diet.

 

[guibox]

Could you tell me what you mean by the "soy" issues, guibox? I do not find myself familiar. I usually just hear things like. "I'm a man, honey, and we require red meat!" LOL

The dessert thing is an excellent point. (and gave me a giggle) I am not SDA, but I do believe in a good diet.

Some of the posts at the beginning of this thread give links to sites that criticize the soy bean and that it isn't really healthy, thus putting doubt on the vegetarian diet that relies on soy. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head what some people say about soy, but those websites might give you an idea.

 

[lovely]

Oh, okay, thanks guibox. I responded to tofuy some time ago and just picked up from there. I did not read the soy article. The things that I have read concerning soy are quite different than that article. Mostly good, for adults, but I have read that soy can have ill effects on children. The soy that I thought it was referring too was for packed, frozen foods. I wonder if there is a difference? The article should be looked into and considered closely if you have thyroid disease. I have a friend who struggles with this, it is awful on her.

I heard before that Asian soy is processed...fermented....differently and is better for you than ours. I suspect this may be true.

I think a whole-food diet makes more sense than any. I have a whole-food recipe book that is excellent. You can even make bread!

 

[Tofuy]

wow! people are having a conversation on this thread and i'm not one of them! :o :D

i assume SDA is the same as Standard American Diet? S.A.D. is a slightly more accurate accronym. ;-)

As an SDA, I feel that I don't live up to our health message (and many others don't).

are there any specifics about this? i might be able to help.

Mostly good, for adults, but I have read that soy can have ill effects on children.

where did you read this lovely? i'm very concerned about this. i've never read research(not opinion, actual research results) about any negative effects on children, regardless of who funded the research. i'd like to more. do you have any links? do you remember where you read this?

 

[paisley]

Q: can someone be vegan and christian at the same time? of course, just like someone can be an only meat eater and Christian at the same time.

Q: how many people here have had possitive experiences with vegans? I have had none because the vegans I encounter seem to always want to call meat eaters murderers, stupid, evil or something else along those lines.

 

[Tofuy]

i'm sorry they did that. though i understand why they mi ght feel that angry, i don't agree with them expressing themselves that way, especially if unprovoked. insulting people is one of the least productive ways to get them to listen to what you have to say.

i wonder what the conversations must've been about if all of those vegans were rude. anything interesting?

 

[lovely]

Hi Tofuy,

I am providing some links that talk about the ill effects on children.

http://www.missionislam.com/health/dangers_of_soy.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00044475.htm

http://www.mercola.com/2005/feb/26/soy_myths.htm

I have read other things on religious sites...I look for them.

Blessings

 

[guibox]

"Tofuy"
i assume SDA is the same as Standard American Diet? S.A.D. is a slightly more accurate accronym. ;-)

As an SDA, I feel that I don't live up to our health message (and many others don't).

are there any specifics about this? i might be able to help.

:D ACtually, SDA stands for Seventh Day Adventist. Adventists are known for their health message and vegetarianism. I don't know if you've heard of the CHIP program which is a vegan program designed to help people change their life through a vegan diet.

Many of us like our meat, sweets, sugar and dairy to be vegans, though I do eat vegetarian as well.

 

[Tofuy]

thanks for the links lovely, i'll examine them in closer detail tonight.

guibox, have you ever tried any of the new imittation products? some of them are getting really close. i've noticed albertsons carries some of the more popular ones, like Soy Delicious. i'm surprised Turtle Mountain could pay the shelf stocking fee but wow! albertsons is open 24 hours so i can buy Soy D whenever i want! it's a non-dairy ice cream which tastes wonderful. my non vegan friends like it and buy it whenever they're sick and they want to eat ice cream without getting more phlegm. usually, they just buy dairy ice cream on sale.

 

[guibox]

guibox, have you ever tried any of the new imittation products? some of them are getting really close. i've noticed albertsons carries some of the more popular ones, like Soy Delicious. i'm surprised Turtle Mountain could pay the shelf stocking fee but wow! albertsons is open 24 hours so i can buy Soy D whenever i want! it's a non-dairy ice cream which tastes wonderful. my non vegan friends like it and buy it whenever they're sick and they want to eat ice cream without getting more phlegm. usually, they just buy dairy ice cream on sale.

The one thing that I don't care for as far as vegetarianism goes is the dairy. I suppose I can stomach tofu cheese slices in sandwiches and maybe...maybe soy milk in cereal. Other than that, I have difficulty.

I do eat and enjoy the burgers, vegi-links, fri-chik, mock chicken and stripples (I guess I'm talking Morningstar and Loma Linda products). I also enjoy Yves that you can buy at Safeway. I can make a mean spaghetti sauce with the Ground Round that would even satisfy the hearty meat sauce eater.

Guibox's spaghetti sauce using Yves Ground Round

You take crushed garlic cloves and onions and fry it in whatever frying oil or butter you like, then add in the ground round and put Spike and Lowry's seasoning salt in it and let it all fry for a bit. Then you add in Prego spaghetti sauce and let it simmer. Add in a few more crushed garlic cloves and more spices. Adding parmesean cheese if you have any to simmer with it works really good. Make it a bit thicker by not putting in too much sauce. Then dump in on your spaghetti and enjoy!

Mmmmmmm!

 

[paisley]

"i wonder what the conversations must've been about if all of those vegans were rude. anything interesting?" Well, I can't recall considering I was speaking in the broad spectrum of encounters in life rather than an isolated case from the other day. In such a case, usually just the harsh words are remembered not the convo. leading up to it. My most recent encounter though was on this Christian forum when a vegan came on as troll to provoke Christians. She was really rude as she aggressively accused meat eating Christains as being heartless and cruel and doomed for hell. Maybe you know her, I don't know. Perhaps your intentions and feelings are the same as hers but you are trying to show a nice face before bearing your teeth? So do you think meat eaters can be Christians? Did you come on this board to enjoy Christian fellowship or to proselytize your religion of vegatarianism?