Very Disturbing Bible Passages

[Jack Hectorman]

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Interesting thread, I read it all.

Here is a video that will make a general contribution to the OP, in that it will provide some answers to the questions about God's actions in the Old Testament.

[video=youtube;1C3q3Zr_R8E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C3q3Zr_R8E[/video]

Dr. Paul Copan. Is God A Moral Monster? Making Sense Of The Old Testament God.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C3q3Zr_R8E

I post this video NOT as an argument ("Go read" is not an argument and neither is "Go watch") but as a possible teaching tool for some people. Take from it what you can use, if anything, and ignore the unusable.

On Dr. Paul Copan and his book Is God A Moral Monster? Making Sense Of The Old Testament God, see post 175, here:
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=51281&page=12

Dr. Paul Copan's book is a response to Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."__Richard Dawkins

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[josefnospam]

Its an actual historical account of what occured. BUT if you don't see CHRIST in every page and story of the whole bible you missed the point. The O.T. speaks of the coming messiah. The N.T. shows the fullfillment of what the O.T. spoke and Christ is what the whole Bible is about from cover to cover. All the distrubing passages mean, is that God has not opened your eyes to that particular truth yet. No one knows everthing in the scriptures and anyone who claims they do is a lair. ONLY GOD can open your eyes and ears. Remember, ALL scripture is given for us to learn about JESUS CHRIST and him crucified.
So if you come upon a passage that is bothering you one way to approached it is to study it alone and try to find CHRIST. And believe me when I say this can be most difficult at times. Thank God for his mercy and Grace as he reveals to whomever he wants, what he wants them to know when he wants them to know it. Be thankfull for he alone is GOD and what a great GOD he is. His name is Jesus Christ the LORD and SAVIOUR.

 

[josefnospam]

God never changes. He punished people for there sins in the O.T. and in the N.T. and he will punishe people in our times. GOOD NEWS ... we have a saviour who was punished for us if he choose you for such a great honor. Were all sinners in need of his MERCY and the spirit he gives to the people he choose. Thank GOD for he is very mercifull. But he is also the GOD of Judgement.
God is not sitting around hoping you will let him help you, he is JESUS CHRIST the LORD and SAVIOUR ruling over his creation right now, and he doen't save anyone with lies about whose choice it is and all the endless discussions about how to live, ect. Fact is you are either his or you are not.
We can't have it both ways. You cannot claim to belong to God and then pursure and love the world. I thank GOD he alone is in complete control of all things and HE choose a people and paid for Their sins with his blood. What a great and Mighty Saviour he is.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

BUT if you don't see CHRIST in every page and story of the whole bible you missed the point. The O.T. speaks of the coming messiah. The N.T. shows the fullfillment of what the O.T. spoke and Christ is what the whole Bible is about from cover to cover.

I think you may need to read your OT a lot more (specifically the major prophets Jeremiah, etc.) my friend if you have come to the above conclusion. There is not a singular Messiah that the entirety of the OT writings look ahead to. Many Messianic prophecies were not about Jesus or 1st century times. King Cyrus of Medo Persia as well as King Hezekiah and of course Jesus of Nazareth were in fact Messiahs according to the scriptures. The idea of their being a singular messiah is a construct of the church that came after the scriptures were written.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

With that being said, you have it backwards, my friend. You see, you read the text as being about God/people being immoral and horrible. I would dispute that. The "backwards" comment will be explained in #5 below.
1) I suggested to you that you have set yourself as the judge of what is moral. But man is simply not qualified to do that.

You are correct to an extent. I have set myself as being able to determine not what is moral, but rather an act or various actions are in fact moral based on what I'm told and have been taught is moral. Man is qualified to judge what is moral no matter how you slice it. To judge is simply to make a determination or arrive at a conclusion based on knowledge and facts. We are expected and COMMANDED to make judgments all the time (John 7:24, Proverbs 31:9).

2) Man judging what is moral, makes morality subjective, since people disagree about what is moral/immoral. But the truth is, that "subjective morality" is a self contradiction. An oxymoron.

No, jumbo shrimp is an oxymoron, saying morality is subjective is a reasonable conclusion based on what we see on a regular basis and have seen throughout history. We can come to a reasonable conclusion that gives us a general basis for morality's foundation and that basis is made of love and empathy. Love for self and others along with the ability we have to put ourselves in the shoes of others and the fact that we live among others in societies gives us a basis to come up with a general concensus relating to what moral and immoral behaviors are.
So, it is reasonable to conclude that morality is a social construct based on cohabitation, love, and empathy as opposed to it being a divine edict that is found NOWHERE IN THE BIBLICAL TEXTS.

3) When you start out by assuming yourself to be qualified to judge all and use your own version of morality as the ruler by which to measure the actions and beliefs of others, you will find that you end up judging all of mankind as failing and immoral, since no one would agree with you on every point of morality, neither by word, nor by deed.

I assume myself to have the ability to read, comprehend, and reason based on positive evidences backing that assumption. This ability qualifies you, others, and ME to make judgments on various subjects including morality and immoral behaviors. Morality was in place before and will be in place long after me, but while I am here, I can and have "looked into it" to the point where I can know it when I see it. Can't you?

4) What folks like you (those who think they are judge) fail to realize, is that when you set yourself up as judge of all, you do the very same thing you criticize God for doing and reveal yourself as a common, garden variety hypocrite, nothing more. And you should not bother trying to claim that you don't place yourself as judge, since the first thing you did, was start out by judging God, telling us how horrible and immoral He is.

I question how believers condone or better yet rectify blatent acts of evil, cruelty, or immorality the scriptures seem to indicate were either condoned, commanded, or committed by God. My initial conclusion was that God is not subject to moral guidelines as God stands without peers and therefore is not subject to the rules of morality unless HE subjects Himself to said rules.
I never critisized God for being "judge of all", nor did I imply that I am qualified to be "judge of all." The hypocracy you claim to see is your own creation and is all in your head based on the baseless accusations you seem ever so comfortable asserting. My issue was with the acts of evil perpetrated, no more, no less.

5) Now as for the reason I said that you have it backwards, it is because you began by reading the text from a 21st century, Gentile point of view and pretended you could understand it without any knowledge of the history involved. You would not do that with any other ancient text. Unless you're just lazy and in that case, you shouldn't be commenting at all.

The problem here, is that when I told you that you cannot comprehend these ancient texts without a strong, solid working knowledge of the things I mentioned (and more), instead of doing the proper research (which would take years and an open heart and mind) and then coming back and reading the texts again in their proper context, you, after knowing this, came at it backwards. How? By doing absolutely zero research

The problem is that you blindly assume I am not well read and familiar with A.N.E. peoples and culture. You assume I come to this discussion without having done research years ago. Don't assume!

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

My advice to you, is that if you are not a believer, than just say so. Unbelievers are allowed here. And what motive could there be to hide it, except to try to sneak up on Christians and also to feign being the victim, trying to make it appear to the moderators like they're beating up on the poor little misguided Christian, who needs brotherly love and caring guidance, when in truth all you've done is attack God's word, calling it evil/immoral, without one good thing to say about it.

Please, please, please do a little research and reading before you make comments or give "advice". Nothing is hidden about where I am coming from. You can see my journey along with my beliefs through the many posts I have made over the years. I hide nothing and have readily confessed that I take issue with some of what I see in the scriptures both Old and New.
"all you've done is attack God's Word calling it evil/immoral" is an overstatement on your part. I pointed out specific stories within the 66 writings that cause(d) ME CONCERN. My OPINION at this point is that the 66 writings cannot possibly be what I originally thought they were (the inspired writings from God and His infallible Word).

 

[farouk]

Remember the dispensational aspect.

Put differently: is it about an earthly people, Israel, or a heavenly people, the church, under grace?

 

[Ryan]

Malachi 3:6 would disagree with your comment Farouk.

Our Heavenly Father has treated everyone the same from Adam to Eve, David, Paul, you and I. How could a loving and merciful Father change?

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

 

[farouk]

Malachi 3:6 would disagree with your comment Farouk.

Our Heavenly Father has treated everyone the same from Adam to Eve, David, Paul, you and I. How could a loving and merciful Father change?

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Ryan:

...and Paul would disagree that unregenerate Jew, unregenerate Gentile and born again New Testament believer of the church are all supposedly under a same covenant; 1 Corinthians 10.32.

I think the unchanging character of God (to which you exclusively refer), and His dealings over the dispensational arrangments need to be distinguished.

 

[gr8grace]

Malachi 3:6 would disagree with your comment Farouk.

Our Heavenly Father has treated everyone the same from Adam to Eve, David, Paul, you and I. How could a loving and merciful Father change?

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Ryan:

...and Paul would disagree that unregenerate Jew, unregenerate Gentile and born again New Testament believer of the church are all supposedly under a same covenant; 1 Corinthians 10.32.

I think the unchanging character of God (to which you exclusively refer), and His dealings over the dispensational arrangments need to be distinguished.

I agree. Gods Character never changes. However, His policies in dealing with mankind has changed.

 

[Ryan]

Malachi 3:6 would disagree with your comment Farouk.

Our Heavenly Father has treated everyone the same from Adam to Eve, David, Paul, you and I. How could a loving and merciful Father change?

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Ryan:

...and Paul would disagree that unregenerate Jew, unregenerate Gentile and born again New Testament believer of the church are all supposedly under a same covenant; 1 Corinthians 10.32.

I think the unchanging character of God (to which you exclusively refer), and His dealings over the dispensational arrangments need to be distinguished.

We've been through this before. Pre-Christ believers were saved looking forward to the cross, post cross believers were saved looking back at the cross. Sins were forgiven with what was to come, and we are forgiven with what was.

Dispensatiionalism is nothing but faulty theology. Sorry.

 

[farouk]

Malachi 3:6 would disagree with your comment Farouk.

Our Heavenly Father has treated everyone the same from Adam to Eve, David, Paul, you and I. How could a loving and merciful Father change?

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Ryan:

...and Paul would disagree that unregenerate Jew, unregenerate Gentile and born again New Testament believer of the church are all supposedly under a same covenant; 1 Corinthians 10.32.

I think the unchanging character of God (to which you exclusively refer), and His dealings over the dispensational arrangments need to be distinguished.

We've been through this before. Pre-Christ believers were saved looking forward to the cross, post cross believers were saved looking back at the cross. Sins were forgiven with what was to come, and we are forgiven with what was.

Dispensatiionalism is nothing but faulty theology. Sorry.

Ryan:

I could say the same about where I think you're coming from, and you haven't engaged with the vital fact that the church is not Israel; but as you say, we have been through this before. Having been around nice Reformed Christians for a number of decades, I have gotten along well with them as brothers in the Lord; I'm merely unconvinced at the way they try to read Scripture, and utterly so.

So let's both have a nice day.

Blessings.

 

[Ryan]

Malachi 3:6 would disagree with your comment Farouk.

Our Heavenly Father has treated everyone the same from Adam to Eve, David, Paul, you and I. How could a loving and merciful Father change?

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Ryan:

...and Paul would disagree that unregenerate Jew, unregenerate Gentile and born again New Testament believer of the church are all supposedly under a same covenant; 1 Corinthians 10.32.

I think the unchanging character of God (to which you exclusively refer), and His dealings over the dispensational arrangments need to be distinguished.

We've been through this before. Pre-Christ believers were saved looking forward to the cross, post cross believers were saved looking back at the cross. Sins were forgiven with what was to come, and we are forgiven with what was.

Dispensatiionalism is nothing but faulty theology. Sorry.

Ryan:

I could say the same about where I think you're coming from, and you haven't engaged with the vital fact that the church is not Israel; but as you say, we have been through this before. Having been around nice Reformed Christians for a number of decades, I have gotten along well with them as brothers in the Lord; I'm merely unconvinced at the way they try to read Scripture, and utterly so.

So let's both have a nice day.

Blessings.

Yes, blessings and have a nice day.

I just don't like to ignore the Olive Tree of which the natural tree is Israel as they are the natural branches in Romans 11, or being part of the Commonwealth of Israel as in Ephesians 2. But I digress no further from the topic at hand.

 

[farouk]

We've been through this before. Pre-Christ believers were saved looking forward to the cross, post cross believers were saved looking back at the cross. Sins were forgiven with what was to come, and we are forgiven with what was.

Dispensatiionalism is nothing but faulty theology. Sorry.

Ryan:

I could say the same about where I think you're coming from, and you haven't engaged with the vital fact that the church is not Israel; but as you say, we have been through this before. Having been around nice Reformed Christians for a number of decades, I have gotten along well with them as brothers in the Lord; I'm merely unconvinced at the way they try to read Scripture, and utterly so.

So let's both have a nice day.

Blessings.

Yes, blessings and have a nice day.

I just don't like to ignore the Olive Tree of which the natural tree is Israel as they are the natural branches in Romans 8, or being part of the Commonwealth of Israel as in Ephesians 2. But I digress no further from the topic at hand.

Ryan: Start another thread on the Olive Tree and maybe I'll even contribute; it's a red herring to imply that dispensationalists 'ignore' it; but like you say, it tends to digression.

Otherwise, I'm enjoying my nice day! and glad you are, too

Blessings, my friend.