Vessels of Destruction - Take 2

[smaller]

Bringing up Romans 7 strengthens my argument. In fact, it is a re-statement of part of my argument.

What is the Law in Romans 7 that worked on indwelling sin in Paul?

It is, of course, the Law of Moses, given to Jews only.

And that is a FALSE argument. Paul clearly applies the LAW OF THE OLD TESTAMENT to ALL CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS

in Romans 13:8-10.

By the way, no one is denying that sin and evil indwells all men, regardless of ethnicity. But this does not mean that the Law of Moses, given to Jews only, does not function to make matters worse for that Jew.

Which is what I have been arguing.

Your argument is false and a logical fallacy on many counts.

The LAW is and remains written against THE LAWLESS. The presence of indwelling SIN is in ALL and is inherently LAWLESS.

s

 

[Drew]

And that is a FALSE argument. Paul clearly applies the LAW OF THE OLD TESTAMENT to ALL CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS

in Romans 13:8-10.

Paul, of course, never does anything of the kind. There is no way that a Pharisee like Paul does not know what so clear from the Old Testament - the Law of Moses is given to the nation of Israel and to them only. Here is the text you cite:

Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

It is, of course, true that Paul speaks of non-Jews fulfilling "the law". That simply does not over-rule what is patently clear from the Old Testament - the Law of Moses was given to Jews only.

Yes, Paul is saying that Gentile are fulfilling it. This does not mean that it was given to them.

You say that I am making logical errors. I suggest I have made zero logical errors and you are making another here - the fact that people who were not given the law are "doing the law" does not mean it was given to them!

If I, as a Canadian, decide to follow the US law about, say, not driving faster than 55 miles per hours does that place me under the jurisdiction of that law?

Of course not!

There is an important, legitimate, and entirely meaningful distinction between "doing the law" and being under its "jurisdiction". The Jews are the only ones were ever under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses - it was given to them and them alone at Sinai.

Your argument is false and a logical fallacy on many counts.

The LAW is and remains written against THE LAWLESS. The presence of indwelling SIN is in ALL and is inherently LAWLESS.

s

The actual Biblical evidence is with me on this issue. Here is as clear a statement as anyone could ask for - it is the Jew only who is given the Law of Moses:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 'Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

This food law is part of the Law of Moses. To whom was it given? To Jews, to the exclusion of Gentiles.

 

[smaller]

Paul, of course, never does anything of the kind. There is no way that a Pharisee like Paul does not know what so clear from the Old Testament - the Law of Moses is given to the nation of Israel and to them only. Here is the text you cite:

Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

It is, of course, true that Paul speaks of non-Jews fulfilling "the law". That simply does not over-rule what is patently clear from the Old Testament - the Law of Moses was given to Jews only.

Paul just applied the LAW and the understanding and following of SAME right there in that scripture set. ANY COMMAND is encompassed therein AND to 'believers.'

Jesus says the SAME THING. Man (not just JEWS) SHALL LIVE BY EVERY WORD OF GOD.

Yes, Paul is saying that Gentile are fulfilling it. This does not mean that it was given to them.

Gods Words are for ALL MANKIND.

You say that I am making logical errors. I suggest I have made zero logical errors and you are making another here - the fact that people who were not given the law are "doing the law" does not mean it was given to them!

Paul has clearly applied the LAWS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT to believers in Romans 13:8-10.

If I, as a Canadian, decide to follow the US law about, say, not driving faster than 55 miles per hours does that place me under the jurisdiction of that law?

Of course not!

Your analogy is irrelevant. Gods Words are for ALL MANKIND and they came from GOD to MANKIND.

The very FIRST LAW was against the LAWLESS one and that LAW was 'DO NOT EAT.' That LAW prompted SIN to enter ALL mankind.

Every 'subsequent LAW' was also AGAINST the LAWLESS regardless TO WHOM such LAW CAME because LAWLESSNESS and SIN is in all mankind.

The Law maintains it's own relationship against ALL lawlessness in ALL mankind.

There is an important, legitimate, and entirely meaningful distinction between "doing the law" and being under its "jurisdiction". The Jews are the only ones were ever under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses - it was given to them and them alone at Sinai.

The Laws intents are spelled out by Paul early in Romans (3):

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The actual Biblical evidence is with me on this issue. Here is as clear a statement as anyone could ask for - it is the Jew only who is given the Law of Moses:

IF you have a MOUTH and are part of ALL THE WORLD then the LAW says what it says regardless of WHOM it came to.

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 'Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

This food law is part of the Law of Moses. To whom was it given? To Jews, to the exclusion of Gentiles.

Every COMMAND was given it's PROPER MEANING and understanding BY PAUL, not by your FLESHLY determinations of what ANY COMMAND says.

They are ALL to be read and followed as Paul described in Romans 13:8-10 and this by ALL believers.

Many so called 'believers' THROW AWAY Gods Words. Such are NOT believers of GODS WORDS no matter their claims of belief in same.

Obviously you do not ACCEPT Gods Words or believe them to be applicable other than to Jews.

s

 

[Drew]

Obviously you do not ACCEPT Gods Words or believe them to be applicable other than to Jews.

s

An absurd assertion. You make a bundle of logical errors and as a result it is suddenly me who does not believe the word of God.

Please.

 

[smaller]

An absurd assertion. You make a bundle of logical errors and as a result it is suddenly me who does not believe the word of God.

Please.

Obviously you do not accept the 'Law of Moses, GODS WORDS' are for YOU.

 

[Drew]

Paul just applied the LAW and the understanding and following of SAME right there in that scripture set. ANY COMMAND is encompassed therein AND to 'believers.'

Jesus says the SAME THING. Man (not just JEWS) SHALL LIVE BY EVERY WORD OF GOD.

This does not change the fact that the Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only. This is really not something any serious student of the Bible will dispute. As much as someone might desperately want the Bible to say something else, it says it says!

The Law of Moses was given to the Jews only. Paul clearly believes this, as he repeatedly says things like "justification is available to those over and above those who are 'of the law'". That is, justification is available to Gentiles (not 'of the law') and Jews (those 'of the law').

Gods Words are for ALL MANKIND.

Simply not true - this sounds like a nice Sunday school assertion but it is decidedly not the case that everything that God says is for everyone.

God told Moses to lead the people to Canaan.

Is this an instruction for you and me?

The Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only.

 

[Drew]

Paul has clearly applied the LAWS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT to believers in Romans 13:8-10.

I have already dealt with this - the fact that Gentiles follow the Law does not mean it was given to them, or that they are under its jurisdiction.

Your analogy is irrelevant. Gods Words are for ALL MANKIND and they came from GOD to MANKIND.

I suggest that my analogy is spot on target and you need to dismiss it because it undermines your argument. Again, the fact that Gentiles are found to follow the Law does not result in a rewriting of the Old Testament.

You very conveniently ignore the Leviticus 20 text that states that the food laws function to mark out the Jew as distinct from the Gentile.

The very FIRST LAW was against the LAWLESS one and that LAW was 'DO NOT EAT.' That LAW prompted SIN to enter ALL mankind.

Not relevant. The first law was not part of the Law of Moses. Please, smaller, the readers are not fools. They know that I have never denied that certain laws were given to all humanity.

But not the Law of Moses! There was nary a Gentile in sight when Moses was given the Law.

 

[Drew]

Obviously you do not accept the 'Law of Moses, GODS WORDS' are for YOU.

You are absolutely correct.

I do not believe that I, as a Gentile, am instructed to abstain from eating screech owls;

....or from making sacrifices in a temple that no longer exists;

....or not marry Jebusites,

etc.

The fact that Paul sees that Gentiles are doing certain elements of the Law of Moses does not magically re-write history and have God saying: "you Gentiles are under the jurisdiction of this law".

 

[smaller]

This does not change the fact that the Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only.

That is only according to 'Drew'

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

The WORD of JESUS came THROUGH THE JEW, JESUS. Are THOSE WORDS for YOU Drew?

This is really not something any serious student of the Bible will dispute. As much as someone might desperately want the Bible to say something else, it says it says!

The actual WORDS of God came through VERY FEW elected people.

The Law and the Prophets and finally THE SON of God spoke GODS WORDS for all mankind.

The Law of Moses was given to the Jews only.

The LIVING WORD existed BEFORE flesh incarnation. You cannot DRAW a DIVIDING LINE between any of GODS WORDS and HIS LIVING WORD, Jesus Christ. Such an act is no different than dividing one member of the Trinity from another. It CAN'T be done.

Paul clearly believes this, as he repeatedly says things like "justification is available to those over and above those who are 'of the law'". That is, justification is available to Gentiles (not 'of the law') and Jews (those 'of the law').

Let's make this clear again.

ALL Gods Words are FOR BELIEVERS. Every last one of them. Every JOT and TITTLE.

Gods Words of LAW are and remain against the LAWLESS. ALL people carry LAWLESSNESS which is the power of INDWELLING SIN. Regardless of the FLESH MAN, the power of SIN in ALL MANKIND reacts in opposition to GODS LAWS. That relationship is one of adversity between THE SPIRIT and the ANTI-CHRIST spirits that transpires BEYOND the FLESH EYES that you are peering through.

Simply not true - this sounds like a nice Sunday school assertion but it is decidedly not the case that everything that God says is for everyone.

Any command in the Bible is to be read and understood how PAUL described and NOT as in how 'others' seek to eliminate or eradicate same.

God told Moses to lead the people to Canaan.

Is this an instruction for you and me?

The Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only.

IF there is ANY COMMAND we are given the path to UNDERSTANDING SAME.

The LAW is SPIRITUAL. It was ordained for LIFE. It is HOLY, JUST and GOOD. IF you do not see 'these matters' as VITAL and APPLICABLE to YOU, then you simply do not accept the HOLY, SPIRITUAL, JUST AND GOOD of GODS WORDS are for YOU.

You have been led OFF the trail and made GODS WORDS of 'no effect' on the basis of personal SIFTING.

No believer should THROW AWAY any WORD OF GOD on ANY basis.

s

 

[smaller]

You are absolutely correct.

I do not believe that I, as a Gentile, am instructed to abstain from eating screech owls;

....or from making sacrifices in a temple that no longer exists;

....or not marry Jebusites,

etc.

The fact that Paul sees that Gentiles are doing certain elements of the Law of Moses does not magically re-write history and have God saying: "you Gentiles are under the jurisdiction of this law".

And you read GODS WORDS through FLESH eyes. Such views are rightfully LIMITED and not ALLOWED IN to partake:

Romans 13:
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Any viewer who sees CONTRARY to the sound, solid statement above of ANY COMMANDMENT and says NO, this is NOT what ANY COMMANDMENT is, is OFF of Paul's teachings.

s

 

[Drew]

That is only according to 'Drew'

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

The WORD of JESUS came THROUGH THE JEW, JESUS. Are THOSE WORDS for YOU Drew?

Of course these words are for me.

But your logic is clearly mistaken. Just because Jesus says that "every word" is for all, it is clearly not sensible to take that to apply to everything and anything that God has ever said to anyone. God told David (I think) to build a temple. This is a word from God. Does that mean, smaller, that we are all to go out build a temple?!

I trust you know the answer.

I will repeat the text which you have not addressed that shows that the Law is for the Jew to the exclusion of the Gentile:

'You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those which I have set apart as unclean for you. You are to be holy to me because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

And there is lots more. Paul, for one, clearly believes that the Law of Moses is for Jews only:

The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker

Paul is clearly lecturing the Jew, telling him that the Gentile who, of course, does not have the code, will condemn that Jew. And no, the fact that the Gentile does indeed "obey the law" does not change Biblical history and magically have a horde of Gentiles waiting, along with the Jews, for Moses to descend Sinai and give them all, both Jew and Gentile, the written code.

 

[smaller]

Of course these words are for me.

But your logic is clearly mistaken. Just because Jesus says that "every word" is for all, it is clearly not sensible to take that to apply to everything and anything that God has ever said to anyone. God told David (I think) to build a temple. This is a word from God. Does that mean, smaller, that we are all to go out build a temple?!

As to 'ANY' command, we both should know at this point HOW TO READ THEM regardless of other matters.

We also should both know by now that GODS WORDS maintain a working relationship with Satan and devils that TRANSPIRES beyond the realm of flesh visions. Many of the accounts in the BIBLE should be read with that FACT in MIND and the reactions thereof should NOT be seen with MANKIND ALONE as the recipient. There is an entire invisible realm that 'interacts' with Gods Words as Jesus clearly taught here:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

The above 'dynamic' has not changed.

I trust you know the answer.

I trust not in the limited vision of men, but of what our Lord and His Apostles taught in these matters. Most of the O.T. was written in physical depicition of allegorical connections to the spiritual realms. Where you may see TEMPLES I can certainly look to the reality of THE BODIES of mankind being the TEMPLES via the connection that Paul opened there. Where you may see Hagar and Sarah I will see again the allegorical door Paul opened there. So it is with every 'LIKE' and 'AS' term employed therein and in every account where there are such matters shown. Brambles and thorns SPEAK from the O.T. Trees SING and CLAP their hands, etc. etc. There are many such allegorical/spiritual matters.

In every account where you may see only a WICKED MAN I will see the anti-Christ spiritual WICKEDNESS operational in those depictions. These operations still exist and have not departed from operations in this present evil age, world and generation.

And I expect even fewer flesh men to see these matters.

I will repeat the text which you have not addressed that shows that the Law is for the Jew to the exclusion of the Gentile:

'You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those which I have set apart as unclean for you. You are to be holy to me because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

You can repeat it til you are blue in the face. Where you decipher ANY COMMAND as a FLESH MATTER I will see them as Paul directed same to be 'comprehended' in Romans 13:8-10

And there is lots more. Paul, for one, clearly believes that the Law of Moses is for Jews only:

The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker

Paul is clearly lecturing the Jew, telling him that the Gentile who, of course, does not have the code, will condemn that Jew. And no, the fact that the Gentile does indeed "obey the law" does not change Biblical history and magically have a horde of Gentiles waiting, along with the Jews, for Moses to descend Sinai and give them all, both Jew and Gentile, the written code.

Your sights of these matters are more than woefully shortsighted. Sorry.

s

 

[bleitzel]

Hey Drew,

As usual you've done a thorough job with the text. I take a little different view on the vessels of wrath bit in Romans 9. Like you've pointed out, the vessels of wrath are inarguably a reference to Israel here. And it follows the same likening of Pharoah to the Jews a few verse before (which is starkly in contrast to the OT references becaues the Jews identify with Moses in that story, not pharoah) and the equating of the Jews to Esau in the verses before that, and even linking the Jews to Ishmael just before that.

Understanding these role-reversals is the first step in understanding Paul in this chapter, imho. But then once we've established Paul's amazing teaching, and we take into consideration how much this must have felt like a slap in the face to his Jewish readers, we should then look at Paul's style. To me it looks like Paul is going for shock value here to make his point. And he does a good job. But he sort of culminates it in the potter and the clay crescendo in such a manner as to take it one step too far. And he even admits it, in a way.

I don't believe Paul intends to assert that God really has predestined some vessels for wrath since that has been the very misconception he has essentially been arguing against for several years and in several of his letters. The Jews thought the Gentiles were predestined for wrath and Paul said that was wrong. So here, in chapter 9, when he brings up God predestining some to eternal wrath he does it with a qualifier first. "What if". That "what if" is Paul's way of telling us he doesn't intend for us to take him literally at this point because he himself does not believe in it.

But he's asking us to consider it and see how it would make us feel so that he can finish making his point. He has already slapped the Jews in their collective faces, calling them Ishmael, Esau, and Pharoah and now he's asking them 'ho did that feel?' 'How do you like being told you've been predestined for eternal destruction?' He's making the point that if, as they like to say themselves, that God has the right to do whatsoever He pleases, 'then why would you be upset if you were on the wrong end of that stick instead of the Gentiles?'

But that's not really Paul's point. He's already made the point that no one is on the proverbial wrong end of the proverbial stick.

 

[bleitzel]

Smaller,

After reading your posts I can tell you strongly believe what you're asserting, that all of God's word applies to all believers. But do you think the Jews feel that way? The Jews today but even more importantly, the Jews at Jesus' and Paul's time?

 

[savedbygrace57]

drew:

The Law of Moses was given to Jews only

Yes, but only on tablets of stone to set them apart in a covenant relationship.

But the moral law of God is inscribed in each individual heart as check against sin rom 2:

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

All men were first given law in Adam, thou shalt not eat of the tree of good and evil.

 

[smaller]

Smaller,

After reading your posts I can tell you strongly believe what you're asserting, that all of God's word applies to all believers. But do you think the Jews feel that way? The Jews today but even more importantly, the Jews at Jesus' and Paul's time?

If you've read my posts somethings didn't stick.

Let me make this very clear. Paul had evil present with him and indwelling sin that he termed in Romans 7 as NO LONGER I. There are your TWO VESSELS. Paul and EVIL PRESENT, which same is OF THE DEVIL. All sin is OF THE DEVIL. Paul even admitted HAVING A DEVIL in 2 Cor. 12:7.

IF you missed that let me reiterate. Devils and Satan are shown on nearly EVERY PAGE of the New Testament Gospel to be WITH and IN mankind.

There are your TWO VESSELS.

Did that sink in?

THE DEVIL and his children are THE VESSELS OF WRATH, THE VESSELS OF DISHONOUR, THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THE WICKED ONES, THE TARES.

And yes THEY are ALL predestined to BURN IN THE LAKE OF FIRE FOREVER.

See how easy that was?

enjoy!

smaller

P.S. I particularly DISlike posters positions who JEW BASH on these subjects and consider such views as either borderline anti-semetic or overtly same. Such methodologies are of the 'spirit of error.'

 

[Drew]

P.S. I particularly DISlike posters positions who JEW BASH on these subjects and consider such views as either borderline anti-semetic or overtly same. Such methodologies are of the 'spirit of error.'

You tell a lie here and you have been reported (again).

 

[smaller]

You tell a lie here and you have been reported (again).

Well, let's see. You are allowed to claim that ONLY unbelieving JEWS are 'vessels of destruction' and you GET BY with that?

And if I say that is not possible because God also hardens GENTILES, and such a view as YOURS smacks with NO uncertainty of ANTI-SEMITISM I am reported?

May you NOT find a sympathetic host mod. for such atrocity! But it won't surprise me if you do. It is an infection that seems to be growing within many camps of christianity.

 

[Drew]

I don't believe Paul intends to assert that God really has predestined some vessels for wrath since that has been the very misconception he has essentially been arguing against for several years and in several of his letters.

I may not have been as precise in all my statements as I could have been. I believe that we agree - no person has been pre-destined to any fate. A more accurate statement of my position is this: From the foundation of time God fore-ordained that those Jews who otherwise freely have walked down a path of disobedience would then be hardened (by God).

I am decidedly not suggesting that certain Jews were pre-destined for destruction. What has been pre-destined is that those Jews who freely turn their backs on God will be hardened.

But we agree - the vessels of destruction are Jews and Jews only. And I agree with your analysis - there is heavy irony here as Paul indeed suggest that most Jews of his time have indeed become like, yes, Pharaoh and Esau.

 

[Drew]

Well, let's see. You are allowed to claim that ONLY unbelieving JEWS are 'vessels of destruction' and you GET BY with that?

The reason I get away with this is because this is what Paul's argument actually is. So unless mods are going to say that we cannot agree with Paul.....

Look - I will try to explain this to you yet again: To agree with Paul that some Jews have been hardened is no more Anti-Semitic than it would be anti-Egyptian to agree with Paul that God hardened Pharaoh. Or being "anti-Edomite" for agreeing with Paul that God "hates" Esau.

Your arguments here are shaky enough in their own right. When I argue that Paul is saying that some Jews have been hardened, you need to engage the actual arguments, not make clearly spurious claims that I am "anti-Semitic".

Hardly likely anyway since I come from a Jewish background myself and lost most of my family members (on my father's side) in the death camps in Europe.

And if I say that is not possible because God also hardens GENTILES, and such a view as YOURS smacks with NO uncertainty of ANTI-SEMITISM I am reported?

Indeed you are reported. It is not a "reportable offence" for you to make the incorrect argument that since God also hardens Gentiles, Paul cannot write of a specific hardening of Jews that happened in history. You are free to make such arguments, even if they are clearly incorrect.

What is not acceptable is to assert that I am Anti-Semitic. There is not even the faintest scintilla of evidence to support this damaging accusation. Suggesting that I am anti-Semitic for saying what I am saying is like saying I am anti-Semitic for saying that a large crowd of, yes, Jews, demanded that Jesus go to the cross.