Was Jesus God in the flesh or a Created being?

[Gabbylittleangel]

[quote="Georges
J....Jesus was a Pharisee.....very much in line with the School of Hillel....
[/quote]
Book Chapter Verse??? oh, and given the statement. . . version.

 

[jgredline]

George said
J....Jesus was a Pharisee.....very much in line with the School of Hillel....

You can have a bundle of laughs with my statement.....but it's true..

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

I am with Gabbylittleangel on this
Book Chapter Verse??? oh, and given the statement. . . version.

 

[Vic C.]

:o Stop!

I'm taking away some of your :-D s 8-)

Oh... http://www.minister.fsnet.co.uk/M909SA1.html :-D

 

[jgredline]

Sorry Vic
Its been a long day and I needed a good laugh.
Oh and yes Jesus called himself white washed sepulchre
jg :-D :-D

 

[Imagican]

Notice that the Pharisees that hold your postition that theirs is one Father, one God, but were told by Jesus that their father was the devil. Interesting, that is what the Spirit within me has revealed of those that do not know Jesus as God; they have not been born again, they are still children of satan. You really ought to submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, before its too late.

NO, Solo, the Pharasees did NOT hold the position that I do, for they ignored that Christ was the Son of God. They WERE following their 'father' the devil, instead of the Father of Christ, God. And I would suggest that you 're-examine' the spirit that 'guides you'. I HAVE submitted to the lordship of my Savior; Jesus Christ. But you insist that I MUST accept Him and worship Him as a 'false god' and this I cannot do. I could not be disloyal to Christ NOR the Father by doing such.

Funny, but you have NO rebuttle to the statements that you argue against? Just accusation and inuendo?

I hope that you realize that you are able to 'build punishment' from God as well as 'treasures in heaven'. You're continued inference that those that don't 'believe as you do' are not 'born again' is going to cost you, my brother. So, I guess when Christ died and went to heaven, 'you' took His place? For there is NO man able to judge the Salvation of another. You remind me of the 'brother' of the Prodigal Son. Jealous that the Son was treated 'like a son'.

I have 'yet' to accuse anyone on these forums of 'being lost'. i believe that many exhibit the 'signs' of one that IS, but it is NOT mine to judge. I need ALL the 'grace' that is capable of being given to me and NEED NO additional 'useless' judgement placed upon myself. But, I guess if 'you' have lived a 'perfect life' you can afford it.

 

[Georges]

Glad to have provided it...thought it would be good...


Actually, as I said, his teachings are very much in line with the Pharisaic School of Hillel...who were the gentler/kinder Pharisee's. The Pharisee's Jesus would have been at odds with would have been from the School of Shammai....who were very legalistic...and not friendly towards Gentiles...

I'd go further into detail, and I should charge you for giving you that much :-D ...actually, you can research those 2 groups on your own...

 

[jgredline]

Back to the original post.

Many people are under the impression that Jesus was a created being, that he was not or is not God.
The problems with this theory is that the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus is GOD and not a created god. Lets take a look at Thomas who also doughted Jesus was God. Again contex is key. lets pick it up at verse 24

24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.†So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.†26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!†27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.â€Â
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!â€Â
29 Jesus said to him, 6“Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.â€Â
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
The New King James Version. 1982 (Jn 20:24-31). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Now lets take a look at what all this means.

20:24 First, We should not jump to the conclusion that Thomas should be blamed for not being present. Nothing is said to indicate the reason for his absence. God is always working behind the scenes. The providence of God
20:25 Thomas is to be blamed for his unbelieving attitude. He must have visible, tangible proof of the Lord’s resurrection; otherwise he will not believe. This is the attitude of many people on this board and many palces really, even in church, but it is not reasonable. Even scientists believe many things that they can neither see nor touch.
20:26 Ok so one week later the Lord appeared to His disciples again. This time Thomas was with them. Again the Lord Jesus entered the room in a miraculous way and again greeted them with “Peace to you!â€Â
20:27 The Lord dealt gently and patiently with His faithless follower. He invited him to prove the reality of His resurrection by putting his hand into the spear wound in His side. Thomas sounds like many on this board.
20:28 Thomas was convinced. Whether he ever did put his hand into the Lord’s side, we do not know. But he knew at last that Jesus was risen and that He was both Lord and God. John puts it nicely: “He acknowledged the divinity of Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.â€Â
20:29 The important thing to notice is that Jesus accepted worship as God. If He were only a man, He should have refused it. But Thomas’ faith was not the kind that was most pleasing to the Lord. It was belief based on sight. More blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
The surest evidence is the Word of God. If God says a thing, we honor Him by believing it; but we dishonor Him by demanding additional evidence. We should believe simply because He said it and because He cannot lie or be mistaken. To many people on this board feel they need to understand God when no man knows the mind of God.
Not all the miracles performed by Jesus are recorded in John’s Gospel. The Holy Spirit selected those signs which would best serve His purpose.
Here we have John’s object in writing the book. It was so that his readers may believe that Jesus is true God, Messiah and the Son of God. Believing, they will have eternal life in His name.
Have you believed?

The verdict is in.
Jesus is God, the bible says so.
jg

 

[BradtheImpaler]

An I too concur
Thats exactly my point.

No, it's not. You believe he is God, not the Son of God.

(BTW, are you ready to provide definitions for the terms you use in your signature quote, or will you admit that you are just repeating something you yourself don't understand, while ridiculing others for not understanding it?)

 

[Solo]

It is incredibly obvious of those that are born of the Spirit, as they impart the wisdom of God and have been given godly understanding, against those who have not the Spirit of God indwelling them being blinded to the truth of God's word.

It is fairly simple to understand that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ, and is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of GOD. Prior to the birth of Jesus Christ as a man, JESUS IS JEHOVAH GOD. It is easier for these to believe that Jesus is a created being, such as an Angel, as opposed to an eternal creator God. The scripture calls JESUS LORD, SAVIOUR, REDEEMER, SON OF GOD, IMMANUEL, JEHOVAH ELOHIM, etc. and yet those who are deluded by a false gospel continue to rebel against the God that created them. Amazing. Those that deny this fact are lost, and are condemned.

 

[Georges]

Back to the original post.

Many people are under the impression that Jesus was a created being, that he was not or is not God.
The problems with this theory is that the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus is GOD and not a created god. Lets take a look at Thomas who also doughted Jesus was God. Again contex is key. lets pick it up at verse 24

24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.†So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.†26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!†27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.â€Â
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!â€Â
29 Jesus said to him, 6“Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.â€Â
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
The New King James Version. 1982 (Jn 20:24-31). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Now lets take a look at what all this means.

20:24 First, We should not jump to the conclusion that Thomas should be blamed for not being present. Nothing is said to indicate the reason for his absence. God is always working behind the scenes. The providence of God
20:25 Thomas is to be blamed for his unbelieving attitude. He must have visible, tangible proof of the Lord’s resurrection; otherwise he will not believe. This is the attitude of many people on this board and many palces really, even in church, but it is not reasonable. Even scientists believe many things that they can neither see nor touch.
20:26 Ok so one week later the Lord appeared to His disciples again. This time Thomas was with them. Again the Lord Jesus entered the room in a miraculous way and again greeted them with “Peace to you!â€Â
20:27 The Lord dealt gently and patiently with His faithless follower. He invited him to prove the reality of His resurrection by putting his hand into the spear wound in His side. Thomas sounds like many on this board.
20:28 Thomas was convinced. Whether he ever did put his hand into the Lord’s side, we do not know. But he knew at last that Jesus was risen and that He was both Lord and God. John puts it nicely: “He acknowledged the divinity of Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.â€Â
20:29 The important thing to notice is that Jesus accepted worship as God. If He were only a man, He should have refused it. But Thomas’ faith was not the kind that was most pleasing to the Lord. It was belief based on sight. More blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
The surest evidence is the Word of God. If God says a thing, we honor Him by believing it; but we dishonor Him by demanding additional evidence. We should believe simply because He said it and because He cannot lie or be mistaken. To many people on this board feel they need to understand God when no man knows the mind of God.
Not all the miracles performed by Jesus are recorded in John’s Gospel. The Holy Spirit selected those signs which would best serve His purpose.
Here we have John’s object in writing the book. It was so that his readers may believe that Jesus is true God, Messiah and the Son of God. Believing, they will have eternal life in His name.
Have you believed?

The verdict is in.
Jesus is God, the bible says so.
jg

J....please allow me once again to post the strong's meaning of "God"...

Since Thomas was not a 3rd century Roman, but a 1st century Jew, he would have used the context of "God" in a Jewish perspective...and guess what that was? Monotheism. Since there is only 1 God (Jehovah) in Judaism, one must use one of the other terms for God (Theos), one that works the closest with the Hebrew Elohim.

Again...as stated in the posts above, there is a misunderstanding of the terms...Greek terms trying to define Hebrew principles...Since, Jesus in Hebrew terms can be labeled as part of the Elohim by definition, you must match the closest term in Greek (Theos) that matches the description...






theos {theh'-os}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 3:65,322 of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity
Part of Speech
n m
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities

2) the Godhead, trinity

a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity

b) Christ, the second person of the trinity

c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity

3) spoken of the only and true God

a) refers to the things of God

b) his counsels, interests, things due to him

4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way

a) God's representative or viceregent

1) of magistrates and judges


and Elohim....

'elohiym {el-o-heem'}

TWOT Reference Root Word
TWOT - 93c plural of 0433
Part of Speech
n m p
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) (plural)

a) rulers, judges

b) divine ones

c) angels

d) gods

2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)

a) god, goddess

b) godlike one

c) works or special possessions of God

d) the (true) God

e) God


You can't use the trinitarian definitions as the trinity wasn't conceived until centuries later.....you have to use the Greek term for the Hebrew concept.

 

[mutzrein]

The verdict is in.
Jesus is God, the bible says so.
jg

What's your take on this then JG?

1 Corinthians 15:27.
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

 

[jgredline]

An I too concur
Thats exactly my point.

No, it's not. You believe he is God, not the Son of God.

(BTW, are you ready to provide definitions for the terms you use in your signature quote, or will you admit that you are just repeating something you yourself don't understand, while ridiculing others for not understanding it?)

Brad
I do believe that Jesus is God. He is also the son of God. Why is that so hard for you to understand? God as my witness I was praying for you this morning and will continue to do so. I don't mean it in a condecending way either so don't have a hissy fit.

As for My Old signiture, I will break it down for you more time. Solo does this make sense to you? please let me know.
Read
MATTHEW 28:18–20â€â€How can three persons be God when there is only one God?
PROBLEM: Matthew speaks of the “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit†all being part of one “name.†But these are three distinct persons. How can there be three persons in the Godhead when there is only “one God†(Deut 6:4; 1 Cor. 8:6)?
SOLUTION: God is one in essence, but three in Persons. God has one nature, but three centers of consciousness. That is, there is only one What in God, but there are three Whos. There is one It, but three I’s. This is a mystery, but not a contradiction. It would be contradictory to say God was only one person, but also was three persons. Or that God is only one nature, but that He also had three natures. But to declare, as orthodox Christians do, that God is one essence, eternally revealed in three distinct persons is not a contradiction.

Brad
I give you a verse
the problem and the solution.
simple.

 

[jgredline]

The verdict is in.
Jesus is God, the bible says so.
jg

What's your take on this then JG?

1 Corinthians 15:27.
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

15:27 God has decreed that all things shall be put under the feet of the Lord Jesus. Of course, in putting all things under Him, God necessarily excepted Himself. Verse 27 is rather hard to follow because it is not clear to whom each pronoun is referring. I might paraphrase it as follows: “For God has put all things under Christ’s feet. But when God says, all things are put under Christ, it is obvious that God is excluded, who put all things under Christ.†With the exception of God, all things are under the feet of Jesus Christ. Soon, He will take control of that which is twice Hisâ€â€that which was given to Him by the Father and that which was purchased by His own blood on Calvary. This is a quick answer. I will check in my greek bible and see what it tells me.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Brad
I do believe that Jesus is God. He is also the son of God. Why is that so hard for you to understand? God as my witness I was praying for you this morning and will continue to do so. I don't mean it in a condecending way either so don't have a hissy fit

God is his Father, there is only one God. If the Son of God is also God, that's more than one God. If you believe God is some sort of "divine family", then your theology is certainly not based on Judaism, the theology of the Apostles and Jesus himself.

As for My Old signiture, I will break it down for you more time. Solo does this make sense to you? please let me know.
Read
MATTHEW 28:18–20â€â€How can three persons be God when there is only one God?
PROBLEM: Matthew speaks of the “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit†all being part of one “name.†But these are three distinct persons. How can there be three persons in the Godhead when there is only “one God†(Deut 6:4; 1 Cor. 8:6)?
SOLUTION: God is one in essence, but three in Persons. God has one nature, but three centers of consciousness. That is, there is only one What in God, but there are three Whos. There is one It, but three I’s. This is a mystery, but not a contradiction. It would be contradictory to say God was only one person, but also was three persons. Or that God is only one nature, but that He also had three natures. But to declare, as orthodox Christians do, that God is one essence, eternally revealed in three distinct persons is not a contradiction.

Brad
I give you a verse
the problem and the solution.
simple.

What do you mean when you say "nature"?

What do you mean when you say "essence"?

What do you mean when you say "person"?

What do you mean when you say "one"?

I have my own understanding of these words, but your understanding may differ, so we might be speaking a different language here. I am suspicious that you may actually not have definitions in mind for the terms you are using and are just repeating Trinitarian cliches and assuming it makes sense. Forgive my suspicion, but here is your chance to really explain what you claim is so simple :

 

[John the Baptist]

[quote="Georges
J....Jesus was a Pharisee.....very much in line with the School of Hillel....

Book Chapter Verse??? oh, and given the statement. . . version.[/quote]

*****
Lets see if it can be found in the 'Arm of Flesh' book?
---John

 

[Georges]

An I too concur
Thats exactly my point.

No, it's not. You believe he is God, not the Son of God.

(BTW, are you ready to provide definitions for the terms you use in your signature quote, or will you admit that you are just repeating something you yourself don't understand, while ridiculing others for not understanding it?)

Brad
I do believe that Jesus is God. He is also the son of God. Why is that so hard for you to understand? God as my witness I was praying for you this morning and will continue to do so. I don't mean it in a condecending way either so don't have a hissy fit.

As for My Old signiture, I will break it down for you more time. Solo does this make sense to you? please let me know.
Read
MATTHEW 28:18–20â€â€How can three persons be God when there is only one God?
PROBLEM: Matthew speaks of the “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit†all being part of one “name.†But these are three distinct persons. How can there be three persons in the Godhead when there is only “one God†(Deut 6:4; 1 Cor. 8:6)?
SOLUTION: God is one in essence, but three in Persons. God has one nature, but three centers of consciousness. That is, there is only one What in God, but there are three Whos. There is one It, but three I’s. This is a mystery, but not a contradiction. It would be contradictory to say God was only one person, but also was three persons. Or that God is only one nature, but that He also had three natures. But to declare, as orthodox Christians do, that God is one essence, eternally revealed in three distinct persons is not a contradiction.

Brad
I give you a verse
the problem and the solution.
simple.

The earliest manuscripts (I believe) do not have the Trinitarian formula in Matthews verse...conspicuously missing I believe.

from an article on Shem Tov's Hebrew version of Matthew..from http://www.essene.com/B'nai-Amen/shemtov.htm

...Lack of Trinitarian formula for baptism in Matt 28:19-20 is unique but seems to be in codices that Eusebius found in Caesarea: he quotes (H.E. 3.5.2): "They went on their way to all the nations teaching their message in the power of Christ for he had said to them, 'Go make disciples of all the nations in my name.'" ST reads: "You go and teach them to carry out all the things that I have commanded you forever."

the jist of the comment...If it was taught (or even written in the original copies) Eusebius would have added it.

 

[Georges]

[quote="Georges
J....Jesus was a Pharisee.....very much in line with the School of Hillel....

Book Chapter Verse??? oh, and given the statement. . . version.

*****
Lets see if it can be found in the 'Arm of Flesh' book?
---John[/quote]

John....Jesus' style of teaching and debate are pharisaic...to understand that you have to be aware of the teaching and debate style of the ancient pharisee's which basically hasn't changed and is the same as Rabbinic debate and teaching today...do you need a Book, Chapter and Verse...for that concept?

 

[Imagican]

It is incredibly obvious of those that are born of the Spirit, as they impart the wisdom of God and have been given godly understanding, against those who have not the Spirit of God indwelling them being blinded to the truth of God's word.

And I 'could' offer the EXACT same statement concerning the opposite. I believe that it is INCREDIBLY obvious that those that are 'truly' born of The Spirit have a Godly understanding that 'accepts' the Simplicity that IS Christ Jesus. And 'understanding' of Christ AS the Son of God.

It is fairly simple to understand that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ, and is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of GOD. Prior to the birth of Jesus Christ as a man, JESUS IS JEHOVAH GOD. It is easier for these to believe that Jesus is a created being, such as an Angel, as opposed to an eternal creator God. The scripture calls JESUS LORD, SAVIOUR, REDEEMER, SON OF GOD, IMMANUEL, JEHOVAH ELOHIM, etc. and yet those who are deluded by a false gospel continue to rebel against the God that created them. Amazing. Those that deny this fact are lost, and are condemned.

And I believe that it is VERY difficult to 'understand trinity'. So complex, in fact, that those that accept it are forced to call it 'a mystery'.

You stated yourself above: the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. Amazing that you would state this in the SAME statement that you would say that Jesus IS GOD. See how 'complex' you make the relationship; He IS the Son of God, but He IS God too?

And the end of your statement I AGREE with 100 percent. It certainly IS amazing. I will NOT go so far as to accuse you or anyone else of being 'lost' simply because what has been revealed to me has NOT been revealed to them. I will say, that we ARE to judge the 'fruit' of those that are saved. And one sign of the 'Fruit of The Spirit' is that those that ARE 'born again', follow Christ and HIS example. And what WAS/IS His example? To love God ABOVE ALL ELSE, and LOVE one's neighbors AS themselves. So, when we use THIS as the guideline of determining those that HAVE The Spirit and those that DON'T, only THEN are we 'truly' able to discern WHO is faithful to the Father through His Son.

A question for you Solo; Did Jesus 'have a God'?

 

[John the Baptist]

I DO NOT buy that.

If any one was totally surrendered to Christ, (GOD) they would [[[BELIEVE]]] the [[[ETERNAL GOSPEL OF CHRIST! ]]] Revelation 14:6 first part & Romans 8:14 of [[[BEING LED!]]] Hermeneutics is ALL supplied! Matthew 4:4 2 Timothy 3:16 It is 'that simple'!

Nor does anyone need to talk in the 'tongue of Strong's concordance' using any one of several word suggestions for [one] meaning! You know, pick the one that I,I,I,I,I want. (Isaiah 14:12-14)
Again, see Cain's 'offering' from Genesis 4:5-7.

How in the world could any person think that the Godhead could have an ETERNAL COVENANT & AN ETERNAL GOSPEL, without an ETERNAL GODHEAD is 'way' beyond scripture & is ARM OF FLESH stuff!

And again. the Word of the [[[GODHEAD]]] needs nothing from the arm of flesh!!!
The emphasis is for some, it seems, guess who?

---John

 

[BradtheImpaler]

*edited by Mod - post of no value to topic*