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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Was Judas saved and now sitting with the Lord in heaven?
- Thread starter Rajesh Sahu
- Start date
Correct. An assumption. And an incorrect one at that.
It's one way, for sure. But not the only way. Men cannot read the hearts of others. Only God does that.
The key here is v.64, where both unbelief and betrayal are mentioned in the same breath. And then in v.71 we read that the betrayer was Judas.
I don't believe that was a coincidence.
So, "following Him" is mentioned every time 'believe' is mentioned, huh?
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
How many times does the phrase "follow Him" occur in these 14 verses that mention 'believe' or 'faith'?
For those who won't bother to count, zero is the answer.
This scripture shows us about what believing means. There were some disciples who believed in Him and followed Him for a while, but then no longer followed Him, when they did not agree with what He said.
These disciples turn back from Him, while the 12, including Judas, continued to follow Him.
Again, Judas continued to believe and follow Jesus, when the other disciples turned away from Him.
The 12 Disciples all continued to follow Him, when these other disciples turned from following Him.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:64-69
Please isolate which parts you disagree with and why.
JLB
- For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, (the
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These disciples turn back from Him, while the 12, including Judas, continued to follow Him.
- For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, (the other disciples)and who would betray Him. (Judas)
Again, Judas continued to believe and follow Jesus, when the other disciples turned away from Him.
The 12 Disciples all continued to follow Him, when these other disciples turned from following Him.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:64-69
Please isolate which parts you disagree with and why.
JLB
It's no opinion about your claims are an assumption.
I agree. It's an incorrect assumption.
Sure. The meaning of "believe" is to AGREE with what He says.
What about John 10:28? Do you believe that recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH?
I hope it's clear to all that the text NEVER says "they who once believed but no longer believed". It says specifically "did NOT believe", with NO implication of past action.
Incorrect assumption.
This verse refutes your assumptions. Both unbelief and betrayal are mentioned in the SAME breath. Judas fits both.
Why would anyone take Peter's word for what's in other men's hearts? Jesus addressed him as "Satan" on one occasion, and Paul had to brace Peter to his face for some major hypocrisy.
Not a very good character witness, imho.
When people state incorrect things, the Bible is careful to report what is being stated incorrectly.
Again, it's just an incorrect assumption that Judas ever believed. He was among the disciples who "do not believe".
Again, the Bible makes NO statement about past actions. But note that the Bible says "from the beginning, Jesus knew who were not believing."
If there was any indication that any of these disciples had at one time believed, the Bible would have said so.
So it is merely an incorrect assumption to believe that any of those disciples had ever believed.
It wasn’t a coincidence, it’s simple truth.
We all know that Jesus referred to Judas as betrayer.
We also know that Jesus referred to the other disciples as those who didn’t believe any longer, and not Judas.
Proving contextually that Judas did in fact believe, along with the other 11 disciples when other disciples no longer followed Him, demonstrating they no longer believed.
It’s very very simple.
For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
They (plural) refers to the disciples who no longer believed.
Who (singular)would betray Him refers Judas Iscariot.
JLB
Yet the Bible is clear about some disciples (followers) "did not believe" and WHO would betray Him. Also v.64 concludes with "Jesus knew from the beginning (of His ministry, obviously, if not from eternity past) who were not believing. That woul include Judas, who was chosen as the one who would betray Him.
You have repeatedly stated your assumptions and opinions with no scripture while I have given the scriptures and expounded upon them to prove my point.
I will no longer respond to any more of your posts that do not contain scripture that we are discussing.
JLB
You have repeatedly stated your assumptions and opinions with no scripture while I have given the scriptures and expounded upon them to prove my point.
I will no longer respond to any more of your posts that do not contain scripture that we are discussing.
JLB
I said:
"The key here is v.64, where both unbelief and betrayal are mentioned in the same breath. And then in v.71 we read that the betrayer was Judas.
I don't believe that was a coincidence."
Does the phrase "did not believe" mean "no longer believe"? If one thinks so, they need to prove it from grammar and Greek.
Very very clear.
"The key here is v.64, where both unbelief and betrayal are mentioned in the same breath. And then in v.71 we read that the betrayer was Judas.
I don't believe that was a coincidence."
That's what I'm saying.
And the context for being betrayer is found in v.64, where unbelief is included with betrayal.
Please cease from adding false words to Scripture. The text does NOT SAY "didn't believe any longer". That's an assumption only. And incorrect. There is no evidence that supports this assumption.
Which, of course, hasn't been proved contextually. Only claimed. Anyone can make a claim. It's evidence that supports one's claim.
Yes, I believe it is very simple.
Yes, very simple. Judas is INCLUDED in those disciples who "did not believe".
Does the phrase "did not believe" mean "no longer believe"? If one thinks so, they need to prove it from grammar and Greek.
Wrong. "did not believe". Not "no longer believed". And Judas WAS included in the group who "did not believe". Proving your theory false.
Yes, clearly stated. Judas was one person, and included with a group of unbelievers.
Very very clear.
No scripture
Did Judas leave with the other disciples or did he continue to follow Jesus?
I said:
"The key here is v.64, where both unbelief and betrayal are mentioned in the same breath. And then in v.71 we read that the betrayer was Judas.
I don't believe that was a coincidence."
That's what I'm saying.
And the context for being betrayer is found in v.64, where unbelief is included with betrayal.
"The key here is v.64, where both unbelief and betrayal are mentioned in the same breath. And then in v.71 we read that the betrayer was Judas.
I don't believe that was a coincidence."
That's what I'm saying.
And the context for being betrayer is found in v.64, where unbelief is included with betrayal.
I really can't help it if one does not recognize John 6:64, 70 and 71 as Scripture. But I did give Scripture regardless.
To the false charge that my posts don't include Scripture, I said:
"How many times should I cite or quote John 6:64 with John 6:70-71 in order to PROVE that Judas was INCLUDED with the group of unbelievers?"
Why provide an irrelevant question to another's question? What does that prove?
We all know that Judas was a criminal opportunist. That's why he stayed. Staying says NOTHING about his heart condition.
Belief that Judas ever believed is simply assertion and assumption, with a dollop of presumption.
John 6:64 describes disiciples who "did not believe" and then included the one who would betray Jesus.
There is no reason to assume that Judas ever believed, especially when he was included in the group of disciples who "did not believe".
Previous posts added to Scripture about "no longer believing" but the text does not allow such speculation.
"How many times should I cite or quote John 6:64 with John 6:70-71 in order to PROVE that Judas was INCLUDED with the group of unbelievers?"
What does this question have to do with answering my question?
Why provide an irrelevant question to another's question? What does that prove?
We all know that Judas was a criminal opportunist. That's why he stayed. Staying says NOTHING about his heart condition.
Belief that Judas ever believed is simply assertion and assumption, with a dollop of presumption.
John 6:64 describes disiciples who "did not believe" and then included the one who would betray Jesus.
There is no reason to assume that Judas ever believed, especially when he was included in the group of disciples who "did not believe".
Previous posts added to Scripture about "no longer believing" but the text does not allow such speculation.
chessman
Member
WRT to the your post here
I disagree that Judas demonstrated his belief that Jesus was the Kingdom of God at hand.I disagree with your assumption because, like I said, the passage you posted doesn’t support your claim:
1. It does NOT say Judas believed anything, much less believed that Jesus was the King of the Jews, the Holy one (which is what you were asked to provide).
2. It does NOT say Judas demonstrated anything, much less that Judas performed any great signs of healings. For all you know, Judas betrayed Jesus’s command to go without taking any money along this time and Judas stayed home with the money bag.
3. It does not say Judas was choosen as one of His disciples for 3 1/2 years. [But Jesus does tell us 12 were Choosen and one was a devil.
4. It does not say Judas was ever promoted.
I disagree with your assumptions because of what we do know about Judas from Jesus, John and Matthew. Namely that early on Jesus (God) told us one of His disciples was choosen and was a devil (the slanderer) and John identifies him as Judas. And Matthew recorded Judas’ claim that Jesus was innocent of the charge of being the King of the Jews.
I disagree with your isolating John 6:70 from a discussion of Judas, because to do so is obviously an avoidance of Judas’s actual role and responsibllity for Jesus’s choosing him in the first place. Nothing catches Jesus by surprise. He knew from the foundation of the world who Judas was and what he believed.
I disagree with any debater that avoids answering direct and relevant questions concerning passages that do speak of what Judas believed. I have posted Scripture that quotes Judas directly stating what he believed. Proving without doubt Judas believed Jesus was innocent of the charge against Him (being the Christ).
I disagree with people supposedly defending Judas belief in the Gospel, yet avoiding answering questions as to what explanation they have for Jesus directing this same Judas to continue with what he’d been doing, only now do it quicker than before.
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WRT to the your post here
Is there a kingdom of God without Jesus, the King of kings?
A scripture reference is not a scripture.
However, you have the right according to the rules here to just state your opinion and tag it with a scripture reference.
Just as I have the right to disregard your post where you just st state your opinion in the face of scripture.
Sure it does.
The scripture teaches us about those who believe, and those who do not, by their demonstration of following Him or not.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 7:64-68
For Jesus knew from the beginning who they ( the other disciples) were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.(Judas)
- Did the other disciples turn away from following Him?
- Did Judas continue to follow Jesus when the others turned away from following Jesus?
JLB
Did Judas leave with the other disciples or did he continue to follow Jesus?
JLB
I said:
"To the false charge that my posts don't include Scripture, I said:
"How many times should I cite or quote John 6:64 with John 6:70-71 in order to PROVE that Judas was INCLUDED with the group of unbelievers?""
Or, anyone can just move their cursor over the citation and read it for themselves.
What hasn't been given is any verse that says that Judas believed. Ever.
"To the false charge that my posts don't include Scripture, I said:
"How many times should I cite or quote John 6:64 with John 6:70-71 in order to PROVE that Judas was INCLUDED with the group of unbelievers?""
To the contrary, one of the mods already took you to task about citing Scripture, which does comply with forum rules.
Which is the SAME as fully quoting the verse(s).
Or, anyone can just move their cursor over the citation and read it for themselves.
We all have the right to disregard any post. So what? I HAVE given Scripture that actually refutes the points in your posts. That's the point.
What hasn't been given is any verse that says that Judas believed. Ever.