Was Judas saved and now sitting with the Lord in heaven?

[FreeGrace]

Did Judas leave with the other disciples or did he continue to follow Jesus?


JLB

As a criminal opportunist, he continued to be with Jesus. We know that he continued to be a criminal opportunist from John 13:

27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”
28 But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.
29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the festival, or to give something to the poor.

That's why he continued to hang around.

Equating his continuance with Jesus with believing He was the Messiah has no basis of evidence from Scripture.

 

[Tatilina]

No Judas was not saved, therefore he is not
sitting with the Lord up in heaven. There are fareay too many scriptures that make it clear that he never was one of us.

 

[chessman]

Did the other disciples turn away from following Him?

Yes. (Notice how the strong cases for their position can answer direct, relevant questions yet you don’t answer direct relevant questions when the answers implicate the weaknesses in your case).

Do you know why the other disciples turned away from Him at this time? What had He said that turned some disciples away from Him?

JLB’s version of John 6:64:

For Jesus knew from the beginning who they ( the other disciples) were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.(Judas)

John didn’t insert these parentheticals, you did.

Here’s what a literal version actually says:

But there are some of you who do not believe”. For Jesus knew from the beginning who the ones not believing were, and who the one who will hand Him over was.​

John 6:64 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:64&version=DLNT

Did Jesus say to the 12; “But there are some of you who do not believe”?

Did Judas continue to follow Jesus when the others turned away from following Jesus?

Yes. Do you know why he continued to do what he had been doing, yet other students of Jesus turned away from His teaching at this point?

We’ll be waiting for your answers to my questions (or you can just re-post your re-write of what John 6:64 actually says over and over again).

 

[JLB]

Yes. (Notice how the strong cases for their position can answer direct, relevant questions yet you don’t answer direct relevant questions when the answers implicate the weaknesses in your case).

Do you know why the other disciples turned away from Him at this time? What had He said that turned some disciples away from Him?

So answer the question.


Did Judas Iscariot continue following Jesus when the other disciples turned away from Him?


JLB

 

[JLB]

As a criminal opportunist, he continued to be with Jesus. We know that he continued to be a criminal opportunist from John 13:

Judas Iscariot was a disciple of Jesus Christ for 31/2 years, he became an apostle and was sent out to preach the Gospel to the lost with signs following his ministry and was destined to rule with Christ and the other 11 disciples in the millinium.


Can you provide a scripture where Jesus ever commissioned an “unbeliever” to be an apostle ?


Did any of the other 11 disciples ever sin while following Jesus?

Has there ever been a Christian Minister who was greedy for money?

If a born again Christian steals money from the offering, will they lose their salvation?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

chessman said:
Yes. (Notice how the strong cases for their position can answer direct, relevant questions yet you don’t answer direct relevant questions when the answers implicate the weaknesses in your case).

Do you know why the other disciples turned away from Him at this time? What had He said that turned some disciples away from Him?

So answer the question.

I believe the ball is in your court here. He asked the question. I am very interested in your answer to his question.

Did Judas Iscariot continue following Jesus when the other disciples turned away from Him?
JLB

This question was already answered in post #123, but apparently was missed.

So here it is:
"Yes. Do you know why he continued to do what he had been doing, yet other students of Jesus turned away from His teaching at this point?"

So, he answered your question and asked a question.

I do hope his question will be addressed with an answer.

Judas Iscariot was a disciple of Jesus Christ for 31/2 years, he became an apostle and was sent out to preach the Gospel to the lost with signs following his ministry and was destined to rule with Christ and the other 11 disciples in the millinium.

So what? What does John 6:64 SAY?
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

This is quite clear Jesus ALWAYS knew who wouldn't believe and who would betray Him. Judas was chosen as one who was willing to betray Him.

What's totally missing from your theory is why Judas changed from being a believer to being an unbeliever. There is nothing in Scripture to even suggest such a thing. So your theory has a huge hole in it.

Can you provide a scripture where Jesus ever commissioned an “unbeliever” to be an apostle ?

Sure. John 6:70
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

Sure doesn't sound like Jesus was describing a believer to me.

Did any of the other 11 disciples ever sin while following Jesus?

All humans sin. The question is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Has there ever been a Christian Minister who was greedy for money?

More irrelevancy.

If a born again Christian steals money from the offering, will they lose their salvation?

Jesus was clear about those He gives eternal life (those who have believed in Him); they shall never perish. John 10:28.

So the answer is no.

 

[chessman]

So answer the question.

My strong case has already answered your questions:

JLB said:
Did Judas continue to follow Jesus when the others turned away from following Jesus?
Chessman said:
Yes.

I answered your questions directly (“yes”), yet your weak case chose to avoid answering mine. Here they are again for your conviction:
1.

Do you know why the other disciples turned away from Him at this time? What had He said that turned some disciples away from Him?

2.

Did Jesus say to the 12; “But there are some of you who do not believe”?

3.

Do you know why he [Judas] continued to do what he had been doing, yet other students of Jesus turned away from His teaching at this point?

 

[JLB]

No Judas was not saved, therefore he is not
sitting with the Lord up in heaven. There are fareay too many scriptures that make it clear that he never was one of us.

Can you explain how a person can be a disciple of Jesus Christ then become lost, yet was never one of His?

Sheep can indeed become lost.


JLB

 

[JLB]

My strong case has already answered your questions:

Did Judas continue to follow Jesus Christ as a disciple when the other disciples turn away from following Him?


I have not seen your answer.

 

[JLB]

John didn’t insert these parentheticals, you did.

Here’s what a literal version actually says:

But there are some of you who do not believe”. For Jesus knew from the beginning who the ones not believing were, and who the one who will hand Him over was.John 6:64 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:64&version=DLNT

Did Jesus say to the 12; “But there are some of you who do not believe”?

Where did you answer my question that ask’s -
Did Judas continue following Jesus when the other disciples turned away from Him?



64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

They is plural and refers to those disciples that no longer followed Him.

Who is singular and refers to Judas who betrayed Him.

They who did not believe were those who turned away from following Him, and did not include Judas.


65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:64-69

Jesus speaking to the twelve ask’s -

Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

The answer the scripture gives for the 12 -

Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

We includes all 12 disciples.

At that point Judas believed Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God.




JLB

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Here's the verses from Matt 28 -
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

To make a disciple isn't about changing one's behavior. Such an assumption is a grave error. It's about leading one to the Lord in faith. Then, and only then, they are to be taught to obey everything Jesus commanded.

Where in these verses does Jesus say that one is saved by obeying? He didn't

This is what the Bible says about how to be saved and have eternal life:
Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, please review each of these 22 verses and count the times obeidence is mentioned.

I rest my case.

Can you explain how a person can be a disciple of Jesus Christ then become lost, yet was never one of His?
D
Sheep can indeed become lost.


JLB

Great point brother JLB. Indeed like Judas many so called "believers" who choose to willfully disobey Christ risk losing their "pastor/ church guranteed salvation " Mathew 7: 18-25

 

[JLB]

Great point brother JLB. Indeed like Judas many so called "believers" who choose to willfully disobey Christ risk losing their "pastor/ church guranteed salvation " Mathew 7: 18-25

Thanks for pointing out FreeGrace’s definition of disciple.

Judas was a disciple of Jesus then was promoted to an Apostle, in which He was empowered by Jesus and sent out as a sheep to preach the Gospel to the lost, cast out devils, heal the sick (signs of a believer)
Yet somehow, according to FreeGrace, Judas never believed.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Did Judas Iscariot continue following Jesus when the other disciples turned away from Him?

I answered yes to the question then asked you some directand relevant questions which your weak case continues to avoid answering.

I have not seen your answer.

This is a brand new question of yours (slightly reworded but already answered), posed as the questions I just asked you again (in the very post you replied to) are still left out there unanswered by your weak case for all to see.

But I’ll answer your new question just to show how strong cases can always answer direct, relevant questions about Scripture:

JLB asked Chessman:

Did Judas continue to follow Jesus Christ as a disciple when the other disciples turn away from following Him?

He c (I already agreed Judas continued to follow Jesus as one of His students).

Now answer my questions that continued unanswered by your weak case:

chessman asked J(three times now) JLB:
Do you know why he [Judas] continued to do what he had been doing, yet other students of Jesus turned away from His teaching at this point?

chessman asked (three times now):
Do you know why the other disciples turned away from Him at this time? What had He said that turned some disciples away from Him?

chessman asked (three times now):
Did Jesus say to the 12; “But there are some of you who do not believe”?

 

[JLB]

I answered yes to the question then asked you some directand relevant questions which your weak case continues to avoid answering.

Thank you for admitting that Jesus believed along with the 11, and demonstrated his belief in Jesus as the Christ, by continuing to follow Him, as the scripture plainly says about the 12.

Jesus speaking to the twelve ask’s -

Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

The answer the scripture gives for the 12 -

Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

We includes all 12 disciples.

At that point Judas believed Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Do you know why he [Judas] continued to do what he had been doing, yet other students of Jesus turned away from His teaching at this point?

Students?

Down playing disciple to student?

Why not use what the Bible uses; Disciple.

The answer to your question is: Yes. I do know why Judas continued to follow Jesus when the other disciples turned away from following Him.

The reason I know, is the Bible teaches us the answer.

The answer is: Judas continued to follow Jesus because Judas believed Jesus has the words of eternal life, because Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.


But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68-69


Judas continued to follow Jesus because he believed that Jesus is the Christ and has the words of eternal life.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Where did you answer my question that ask’s -
Did Judas continue following Jesus when the other disciples turned away from Him?

If your browser isn’t showing back quotes properly, fix it or use a browser that does.

If you haven’t seen where I repeatedly answered your questions, then you’re not reading my answers. Can’t help you there. It’s your choice to read my answers and your choice to not answer my questions. It’s an indication of the weakness in your case.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I answered yes to the question then asked you some directand relevant questions which your weak case continues to avoid answering.



This is a brand new question of yours (slightly reworded but already answered), posed as the questions I just asked you again (in the very post you replied to) are still left out there unanswered by your weak case for all to see.

But I’ll answer your new question just to show how strong cases can always answer direct, relevant questions about Scripture:

JLB asked Chessman:

He c (I already agreed Judas continued to follow Jesus as one of His students).

Now answer my questions that continued unanswered by your weak case:

chessman asked J(three times now) JLB:
Do you know why he [Judas] continued to do what he had been doing, yet other students of Jesus turned away from His teaching at this point?

chessman asked (three times now):
Do you know why the other disciples turned away from Him at this time? What had He said that turned some disciples away from Him?

chessman asked (three times now):
Did Jesus say to the 12; “But there are some of you who do not believe”?

Dear chessman through the account Bible records for us in Matthew 27: 3-5
how can anyone say dogmatically that Judas did NOT believe moments before he committed suicide . Here are the verses :
Matthew 7: 3-5

When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”
“What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”
5 So Judas threw the money into the templeand left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

Now the verses clearly tell us that Judas was remorseful of his betrayal. He returned the money also. And declared Jesus an innocent man and thereby accepted his own betrayal sin. Now how can anyone be absolutely sure he did not believe in Christ as Savior moments before his death . After all which man knew what was going in the heart of Judas in those vital moments before his death . To my understanding, everything points at that possibility, that having a remorseful heart and returning the money and declaring Christ innocent, there was a very high possibility, he believed moments before his death . And if someone tells me he absolutely did not. I will have to ask them the question " were you present inside him when he took his life. How can you tell me with authority and surety that Judas did not believe in the last moments of his life?
What I'm trying to say is by committing the deep unforgivable act of betraying the Lord himself Judas had gone beyond the point where he could be forgiven or saved. His last minute turning back to Christ and believing, was of no use ( this is very important to understand). He was beyond being saved. Like any believer who has blasphemed the spirit cannot be forgiven. Mark 3:28-30: "Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.
I end this post with a clear observation, faith alone shorn of obedience cannot save. That faith is DEAD as NT writer declared "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26)

 

[chessman]

how can anyone say dogmatically that Judas did NOT believe moments before he committed suicide . Here are the verses :
Matthew 7: 3-5

Believe what???

I can be dogmatic about what he believed precisely because I’m a Bible believer, not a Bible speculator. For example, Here’s the Text you just posted and two simple questions about it. I’ll answer them, then wait for your answers to them:

When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”
“What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”
5 So Judas threw the money into the templeand left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

1. What charge did Judas see Jesus condemned for?
2. Did Judas say Jesus was innocent or guilty of that charge?

Here’s my answers, awaiting yours:
1. Jesus was condemned as the King of the Jews, the Holy One, the Christ.
2. Innocent.

Before I answer any of your questions from post #137, how about answering the ones you left unanswered from previous posts:

do you have any Biblical evidence to support your belief that “it took a hercuken [sic, Herculean] effort on the part of the thief”?

what differentiated the so called Herculean effort of the two thief’s in your opinion? Was one being more Herculean than the other by speaking their minds?

Where did I (or anyone else for that matter) say “obedience plays no part in Christian salvation”?

Wouldn’t hanging oneself indicate disobedience to God’s word to not murder?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Dear chessman through the account Bible records for us in Matthew 27: 3-5
how can anyone say dogmatically that Judas did NOT believe moments before he committed suicide . Here are the verses :
Matthew 7: 3-5

When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”
“What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”
5 So Judas threw the money into the templeand left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

Now the verses clearly tell us that Judas was remorseful of his betrayal. He returned the money also. And declared Jesus an innocent man and thereby accepted his own betrayal sin. Now how can anyone be absolutely sure he did not believe in Christ as Savior moments before his death . After all which man knew what was going in the heart of Judas in those vital moments before his death . To my understanding, everything points at that possibility, that having a remorseful heart and returning the money and declaring Christ innocent, there was a very high possibility, he believed moments before his death . And if someone tells me he absolutely did not. I will have to ask them the question " were you present inside him when he took his life. How can you tell me with authority and surety that Judas did not believe in the last moments of his life?
What I'm trying to say is by committing the deep unforgivable act of betraying the Lord himself Judas had gone beyond the point where he could be forgiven or saved. His last minute turning back to Christ and believing, was of no use ( this is very important to understand). He was beyond being saved. Like any believer who has blasphemed the spirit cannot be forgiven. Mark 3:28-30: "Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.
I end this post with a clear observation, faith alone shorn of obedience cannot save. That faith is DEAD as NT writer declared "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26)

When we choose to disregard / minimize obedience in the Christian walk , and believe that it's believing only which will save , then we are taking the. Soul out of Christ's teaching , leaving the dead body of unobedient faith behind. Thus we do what devil and his gang of followers , the demons do, they all believe in Christ but will fully choose not to follow Him. This is unfortunately what is being taught in majority of churches nowadays. " Just believe and you'll be in heaven when you die"
What doctrine is this ? Who does it serve ? Christ or devil ?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Believe what???

I can be dogmatic about what he believed precisely because I’m a Bible believer, not a Bible speculator. For example, Here’s the Text you just posted and two simple questions about it. I’ll answer them, then wait for your answers to them:



1. What charge did Judas see Jesus condemned for?
2. Did Judas say Jesus was innocent or guilty of that charge?

Here’s my answers, awaiting yours:
1. Jesus was condemned as the King of the Jews, the Holy One, the Christ.
2. Innocent.

Before I answer any of your questions from post #137, how about answering the ones you left unanswered from previous posts:

You are dodging my question . How can you or anyone say with absolute authority that Judas did NOT believe moments before his death ? We will debate other questions later . This is the burning question here. Can I have your take on it ?