Was Mary the MOST blesseded of all except Christ?

[thessalonian]

Let's try this in pole form since the other thread isn't getting much action.


Someone said Mary was not most blessed among women, she was just one of the blessed. Is this a true and proper interprutoin of Luke's infancy naritive where it says

Luke 1
42: and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

My thoughts are:

Children are a blessing. Is this not correct from scripture?

Psalm 127
5. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them;
They will not be ashamed
When they speak with their enemies in the gate.

Now do you suppose that a dozen finite children would be the blessing of the infinite Lord of the universe? I am not denying the blessings of each and every child but would holding a sinful child in need of salvation be an equal blessing to holding the salvatoin of all mankind in your arms. Feeding him, clothing him, caring for him. (the beatitudes of which Mary even had to endure imprisonment and crusifixtion of her son), etc. etc. a blessing that is even blaspemous to compare to any other child. Mary was infinitely blessed to have the Christ Child in her home. Agreed?

Someone called Pius XII a fool for the dogma of the assumption which I am sure he thought was unbiblical. How much more should we be incensed by such nonsense.

Replies welcome.

God bless
_________________

 

[thessalonian]

29 views, only threevotes? What's your opinion folks?

 

[Orthodoxy]

What does the Church believe about Mary from the start?

Luke 1:28, And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

The angels which the sons of God will judge tell Mary she is highly favored by God and blessed among women. Is not Mary Higher than the angels we shall judge? What woman is "more honorable than the Cherubim and more glorious and beyond compare than the Seraphim"? What woman is without corruption but the very Theotokos who the Church magnifies?

I wonder if the heterodox world treats their own mothers the way they treat Mary who is the "mother of Jesus Christ" their claimed "Lord"?

Luke 1:48, For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Either Mary and Luke are incorrect or the ones that will not bless Mary are not in the generations that belong to God. Reformers have come to stand dogmatically against Jesus Christ and the New Testament by refusing to bless Mary and removing her seat in the Kingdom of God.

Who is the greatest prophet according to Jesus Christ? The man John the Baptist.

Matthew 11:11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Who can be greater than John the Baptist but Jesus Christ? Who can be the least but by humility? Who can be "like Christ"? Is it not he that makes himself "least" that is to be the "greatest"?

On a personal note:

Surely I take a seat of lesser position than those that came before me. I surely am not "equal to the apostles" nor near the illuminating light of Mary and John the Baptist. How arrogant to think one's own self "equal" to Mary in humility and devotion to Jesus Christ. What kind of disorderly rebellion would exalt it's self to a level such as this I query in my self.

In Mark 10:37 and Matthew 20:21-23 the mother of James and John, the two sons, argued who should sit at the right hand of Jesus Christ in Glory even asking Jesus that He place her sons in this lofty position. Jesus told this woman it was not His to give but was prepared for others by His Father.

Here are the persons who stand at the right and left hands of the Son of God in the heavenly procession. God the Father had already reserved the spots for the one that bore His Son for our salvation and the "apostle" that announced His arrival to save man.

Mary, the "Mother of my Lord", is honored above all women, blessed by all generations of those claiming "sonship". Mary the Theotokos (God bearer). Who else would be more highly honored?

If God can make humanity kings and priests (Revelations 1:6) for all eternity then certainly God has every prerogative to crown Mary the Theotokos (God bearer) with higher honor in heaven’s royal procession.

So here we have the heavenily image of John the Baptist standing at the left hand of Jesus Christ and His most pure mother standing on His right.

When one enters an Orthodox Church one first sees the image of Mary on Christ's right and the image of John the Baptist on Christ's left because this is the image one will see upon entering the heavenly Kingdom.

Orthodoxy

PS I think your questions are a bit shewed so I did not vote.

 

[thessalonian]

PS I think your questions are a bit shewed so I did not vote.

Perhaps. I can see why you would say that. But please vote anyway.

Thanks for your input. I do find your and OC's posts interesting as many times, while we share views, I get new insights on my own views.

Blessings

 

[aiki]

I think that very often the implication in emphasizing Mary's blessedness is that she is by virtue of that blessing somehow superior to the rest of us. Of course, this is nonsense. What blessing was bestowed upon Mary is a testament to God's goodness to her, not some superior human quality unique to Mary. Mary was born into this world a human, cursed by sin just as the rest of us are. She was fundamentally corrupt and in need of the very Saviour she bore.

Yes, Mary was "highly favoured" as the mother of Christ. But I think every saint of God, that is, every Christian, is as blessed - if not more so. We have the very Spirit of God living within us and He doesn't leave after a nine month gestation. I can think of no greater blessing.

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[Free]

Mt 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 5:4
Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

Mt 5:5
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

Mt 5:6
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Mt 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Mt 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Mt 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Mt 5:10
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 5:11
Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.

Mt 11:6
And blessed is the one who is not offended by me.

Mt 13:16
But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.

Mt 16:17
And Jesus answered him, Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

Mt 24:46
Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.

Mt 25:34
Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Mr 10:16
And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

Mr 11:9
And those who went before and those who followed were shouting, Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!

Seems that more than just Mary are blessed, wouldn't you agree?

What woman is without corruption but the very Theotokos who the Church magnifies?

Care to provide Scripture to back that up? I didn't think you could.

I wonder if the heterodox world treats their own mothers the way they treat Mary who is the "mother of Jesus Christ" their claimed "Lord"?

I wonder if Jesus treated his mother the way the Orthodox and RCC treat her?

Luk 11:27 As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!"
Luk 11:28 But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

Mar 3:31 And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him.
Mar 3:32 And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you."
Mar 3:33 And he answered them, "Who are my mother and my brothers?"
Mar 3:34 And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
Mar 3:35 Whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother."

Seems that even Jesus didn't esteem his mother as much as some do.

Luke 1:48, For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Either Mary and Luke are incorrect or the ones that will not bless Mary are not in the generations that belong to God. Reformers have come to stand dogmatically against Jesus Christ and the New Testament by refusing to bless Mary and removing her seat in the Kingdom of God.

Or you interpretation is wrong, don't leave out that option. In the verse you gave, Mary says that all "shall call her blessed," not "all shall bless me". And actually, as I have shown, Jesus never once said his mother was blessed or said anything special about her. He seemed to think of her as just another woman. That may not be the case, but Scripture doesn't reveal any more than that.

So your whole argument is baseless.

In Mark 10:37 and Matthew 20:21-23 the mother of James and John, the two sons, argued who should sit at the right hand of Jesus Christ in Glory even asking Jesus that He place her sons in this lofty position. Jesus told this woman it was not His to give but was prepared for others by His Father.

Here are the persons who stand at the right and left hands of the Son of God in the heavenly procession. God the Father had already reserved the spots for the one that bore His Son for our salvation and the "apostle" that announced His arrival to save man.

Care to provide Scripture to back this up as well? Again, I didn't think so. Utter speculation, just like the rest of your post. Jesus only states that the Father has reserved the two places, he says no more than that.

 

[Orthodoxy]

I think that very often the implication in emphasizing Mary's blessedness is that she is by virtue of that blessing somehow superior to the rest of us. Of course, this is nonsense. What blessing was bestowed upon Mary is a testament to God's goodness to her, not some superior human quality unique to Mary. Mary was born into this world a human, cursed by sin just as the rest of us are. She was fundamentally corrupt and in need of the very Saviour she bore.

Yes, Mary was "highly favoured" as the mother of Christ. But I think every saint of God, that is, every Christian, is as blessed - if not more so. We have the very Spirit of God living within us and He doesn't leave after a nine month gestation. I can think of no greater blessing.

In Christ, Aiki.

Mary was present at pentacost. Are you implying Mary does not have the Holy Spirit residing in her?

I think Mary was the first to say Yes to Jesus Christ and the first to have the Holy Spirit indwell her in conception.

It appears to me in this statement "if not more so" that somehow protestant american christians are "special", eh?

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

Free,

Seems that more than just Mary are blessed, wouldn't you agree?

Yes. And it says about Mary that she is "blessed among women". Would you not agree the woman that bore the very fire of God in her womb was blessed not to turn into ashes? I would say the heterodox rebellion is blessed God doesnt fry them for bashing Mary!

What woman is without corruption but the very Theotokos who the Church magnifies?

Care to provide Scripture to back that up? I didn't think you could.

Yes. God uses pure vessels to contain His Holy Spirit. Do I need to quote the scriptures that indicate this? Also I cannot find one verse that indicates Mary commited any sin of any kind in her life other than the "sin of Adam" you mentioned. So I guess if it is not in the bible then it never happened. Do you think it is possible a pure and chosen vessel of God could commit no acts of sin as it appears Mary did?

I wonder if Jesus treated his mother the way the Orthodox and RCC treat her?

She is the mother of the Church. Highly honored. I am certain Jesus honored His mother because it is the 6th commandment I believe. If He did not honor His mother then Jesus sinned.

Luk 11:27 As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!"
Luk 11:28 But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

Luke 1:38, And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.

Mary doing the will of God and submitting to it. Who is "the Mother"?

Mar 3:31 And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him.
Mar 3:32 And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you."
Mar 3:33 And he answered them, "Who are my mother and my brothers?"
Mar 3:34 And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
Mar 3:35 Whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother."

Mary doing the will of God and submitting to it. Who is "the Mother"?

Seems that even Jesus didn't esteem his mother as much as some do.

Your jesus appears to dishonor his mother thus breaking the 6th commandment of God. Your version of jesus is a sinner.

Why should I believe anything you say?

Or you interpretation is wrong, don't leave out that option.

The Church is not wrong, you are. Everything I have stated is either scripture or oral tradition which we are commanded to holdfast to both. Seems you only hold fast to a book.

In the verse you gave, Mary says that all "shall call her blessed," not "all shall bless me".

When was the last time you honored Mary with a blessing, eh? Never maybe?

And actually, as I have shown, Jesus never once said his mother was blessed or said anything special about her. He seemed to think of her as just another woman. That may not be the case, but Scripture doesn't reveal any more than that.

Yes more than once you have shown your version of jesus to be a grave sinner in need of a saviour. You maybe?

So your whole argument is baseless.

And your christianity is a fraud. I guess we are even.

Care to provide Scripture to back this up as well?

I need to quote all the prophesies about Mary in the OT? Again oral traditions of the Church show your version of christianity lacking in substance and honor. But I can understand your discouragement finding out you and whoever are not the ones in these positions. You would have us think the moon has the same glory as the sun and the stars the same glory as the moon. 1 Corinthians 15:40-43 and that there is no "changing from glory to glory". Everyone is "equal" in heaven as in America, eh?

Again, I didn't think so. Utter speculation, just like the rest of your post. Jesus only states that the Father has reserved the two places, he says no more than that.

No. Jesus said John is the greatest Prophet and Jesus loves His mother. These I quoted. The fact you have no understanding what so ever about the christian faith except for the incomplete bible shows the shallowness of your heterodox faith. It is not speculation to the Church and if you ever bothered to grace the doors of an Orthodox Church you would see that.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

This verse shows you only have "epistle" and no "word" thus it is not surpising you cannot grasp oral traditions that have been recorded in other areas by the Church not found in the incomplete bible.

Orthodoxy

PS I notice you quote a Church father in your signature, why? Do you believe the words of St. Irenaeus "The glory of God is man fully alive." Where is that in the bible? Do you believe other words of the saints?

 

[Free]

Yes. God uses pure vessels to contain His Holy Spirit. Do I need to quote the scriptures that indicate this? Also I cannot find one verse that indicates Mary commited any sin of any kind in her life other than the "sin of Adam" you mentioned. So I guess if it is not in the bible then it never happened. Do you think it is possible a pure and chosen vessel of God could commit no acts of sin as it appears Mary did

Like I thought, you have no Scripture to back anything up, only speculation. I can think of a lot of things that Scripture doesn't mention, but it would be absolutely foolish to make up doctrine about them.

She is the mother of the Church. Highly honored. I am certain Jesus honored His mother because it is the 6th commandment I believe. If He did not honor His mother then Jesus sinned.

And here the contradiction appears. Nothing is stated that Jesus thought any more of his mother than any other woman; it is not stated in Scripture. And you want me to believe that he thought of her the way the Orthodox and RCC do despite that. Yet you just finished arguing that "if it is not in the bible then it never happened."

You are arguing out of both sides of your mouth, but you cannot have it both ways.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

There's an option missing.

I vote - mary is as blessed as any other women who has children.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

What blessing was bestowed upon Mary is a testament to God's goodness to her, not some superior human quality unique to Mary.

But see that's the thing. Some people believe that what God gives them makes them more superior as well - like they somehow deserve it.

The fruit that I produce - God puts there as well. I am blessed as well. I am blessed because the fruit that I produce is of God - just like mary.

 

[thessalonian]

Yes, Mary was "highly favoured" as the mother of Christ. But I think every saint of God, that is, every Christian, is as blessed - if not more so. We have the very Spirit of God living within us and He doesn't leave after a nine month gestation. I can think of no greater blessing.

In Christ, Aiki.

How could one be more favored than to give birth to the savior of the world and hold him in her arms at night as he slept. To kiss his sacred head daily. To feed him and cloth him and watch him play. To see his perfect charity and be on the recieving end of it. The God of the Universe lived in her home. How can anyone say that anyone else was more blessed than she. To say so is almost blaphemous.

Whatever was in Mary that would allow her to say "let it be done according to your word", accepting the will of God in her life ("blessed rather are those who hear my word and keep it") was put there by God. We should simply praise him for it. Mary was "full of grace" and that grace manifest itself in her life. Paul himself says "imitate me as I imiate Christ.". He says "7: Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith".

There is in fact good in others that may well not be in us. We need to recognize that good, know that it is from God and imitate it. We need to get over this jealousy of Mary as God's chosen one for a mission far beyond ours. That does not mean we are blessed. In fact we were greatly blessed by her mission. Each and every one of us. Acknowledge it.

Blessings

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Again you are looking at her 'works' like she 'earns' the right to be blessed. It was God's will to choose her - not mary's. She did not have a choice in the matter.

I'm in relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ now. He abides in me...how much more am I blessed having the saviour of the world living in me? You see? No different.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Again you are looking at her 'works' like she 'earns' the right to be blessed. It was God's will to choose her - not mary's. She did not have a choice in the matter.

I'm in relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ now. He abides in me...how much more am I blessed having the saviour of the world living in me? You see? No different.

Indeed she had many choices in the matter. She chose to believe Gabriel's message. She chose to accept God's will. She chose to be at the Cross. She chose to be in the Uppper Room when the Spirit fell.

Your Calvinism is showing. I thought you had no tradition.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Free,

It is you that has the burden of proving the Church wrong. We know what we believe.

It is you that claims Mary is just another woman, a sinner just like you.

I ask you to give me one scripture showing Mary committing a sin. You cannot. It is you that claims the bible as the "final authority" in all things. Well show me a sin of Mary in the bible or we must assume she never committed a sin.

I could waste my time looking up all the other pure chosen vessels God required in His Temple but what would be the point? You dont seem to know anything about OT prophesies so why bother? In your demand for my proof texting of the bible it appears you dont know anything about the OT Jewish Temple. Maybe God has changed and does not require purity and when He found Mary it was not important that she be pure and unblemished.

So you say any woman would have been good enough for God to allow the incarnation of Jesus Christ?

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

Again you are looking at her 'works' like she 'earns' the right to be blessed. It was God's will to choose her - not mary's. She did not have a choice in the matter.

I'm in relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ now. He abides in me...how much more am I blessed having the saviour of the world living in me? You see? No different.

Luke 1:38, And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.

This is not Mary making a choice for God?

Mary could not have said "Behold the handmaid of Satan, I will not do your will God, stick your word in your ear"?

Are you telling me none of us has a choice in choosing Jesus Christ?

We have no choice either?

"Who so ever believes" is there not choice in that?

Orthodoxy

 

[Heidi]

And who was responsible for mary carying Christ in her womb? So why do we give the credit to Mary for this instead of God himself? That is envy and hero-worship. Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." I believe him. Others don't have to.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Yes, Mary was "highly favoured" as the mother of Christ. But I think every saint of God, that is, every Christian, is as blessed - if not more so. We have the very Spirit of God living within us and He doesn't leave after a nine month gestation. I can think of no greater blessing.

In Christ, Aiki.

How could one be more favored than to give birth to the savior of the world and hold him in her arms at night as he slept. To kiss his sacred head daily. To feed him and cloth him and watch him play. To see his perfect charity and be on the recieving end of it. The God of the Universe lived in her home. How can anyone say that anyone else was more blessed than she. To say so is almost blaphemous.

Whatever was in Mary that would allow her to say "let it be done according to your word", accepting the will of God in her life ("blessed rather are those who hear my word and keep it") was put there by God. We should simply praise him for it. Mary was "full of grace" and that grace manifest itself in her life. Paul himself says "imitate me as I imiate Christ.". He says "7: Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith".

There is in fact good in others that may well not be in us. We need to recognize that good, know that it is from God and imitate it. We need to get over this jealousy of Mary as God's chosen one for a mission far beyond ours. That does not mean we are blessed. In fact we were greatly blessed by her mission. Each and every one of us. Acknowledge it.

Blessings

You know as well as anyone if the protestants give any credance to Mary as anyone special to God then it rubs against the "American Christian Way" for we are all "created equal" so Mary must also be seen as an "equal". It is the amrican way. Rebellion and pride run deep in the America culture. They cannot say anything good about Mary that would put them in the Roman Catholic Camp. Funny though how the protestants will agree and defend the dual procession doctrine of the RCC called the "filioque" which makes them worship "another jesus" and places them in the RCC camp but the doctrines about Mary are completely and utterly rejected. The protestants really hate Mary from what I see. I know I was taught to lower her status in the Kingdom as a protestant. The protestant faith truely teaches people to hate Mary. I repent of that sin as an orthodox Christian every day. My days as a protestant was filled with misconceptions and lies about Mary. May God have mercy on their ignorant souls. Yes ignorant, gasp, how can I say such a thing? Because I was also a "willing dupe" (ignorant) to believe it!

1 Corinthians 4:15, For though ye have ten thousand TEACHERS in Christ, yet have ye not many FATHERS: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

The protestants have many teachers yet no fathers. I have found teachers do not care about my children as I care. The teachers of the protestant faith do not care about my soul as my spiritual father cares. I have first hand experiance with this. There is a huge difference between a father and a teacher. The protestants have no fathers from what I have experianced. Orphans that disrespect and dishonor their mother and father.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

And who was responsible for mary carying Christ in her womb? So why do we give the credit to Mary for this instead of God himself? That is envy and hero-worship. Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." I believe him. Others don't have to.

We give credit to Mary for saying "YES" to God and not "NO" to God as Eve did. What is wrong with that? Do you not honor the war dead that have given their lives to die for you? Mary "took up her Cross" to follow God! Mary made the greatest sacrifice to have the incarnate Son of God, she laid down her life for His. She is the prototype christian. Self sacrifice. Is that not what Jesus askes a Christian to do?

Placing ones self on the level of Mary is self envy and self hero worship. Why must you think of self as "equal to Mary"?

Orthodoxy

No wonder God resists the proud. It is ugly.

 

[Heidi]

And who was responsible for mary carying Christ in her womb? So why do we give the credit to Mary for this instead of God himself? That is envy and hero-worship. Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." I believe him. Others don't have to.

We give credit to Mary for saying "YES" to God and not "NO" to God as Eve did. What is wrong with that? Do you not honor the war dead that have given their lives to die for you? Mary "took up her Cross" to follow God! Mary made the greatest sacrifice to have the incarnate Son of God, she laid down her life for His. She is the prototype christian. Self sacrifice. Is that not what Jesus askes a Christian to do?

Placing ones self on the level of Mary is self envy and self hero worship. Why must you think of self as "equal to Mary"?

Orthodoxy

No wonder God resists the proud. It is ugly.

So you think that you and everyone else is bigger than God or the devil? :o If you do, Orthodoxy, then you are way off the mark on this one.

I give credit to God for everything good in me, not to myself. None of us is qualified to judge who is good and who is bad. "No one from the east or the west or the desert can judge a man. But God alone is judge." You really should study the bible so that you won't contradict it, Orthodoxy.