Was Mary the MOST blesseded of all except Christ?

[Merry Menagerie]

This is a "biggie". There is a difference between going to a country when you do not want to and being persuaded to carry God in your womb when you really do not want to.
With Jonah is was Gods will that the Nineveh be preached to, then it was their choice
With Mary, it was her body God was going to abide in. Big difference

NO DIFFERENCE They both had an important job to do. I have God abiding in me too - so am I better than mary?

We can reject Gods will by disobedience.

Sure we can - but we are then chastised and convicted.

Do you know what conviction feels like?[/quote]

 

[thessalonian]

He'll guide you to do what his will is - yes. He'll chastise you to his will - yes. This is what happened to Jonah - don't you remember?

You seem to think we are all equal in terms of the grace we recieve. The fact is that we are not. Some recieve greater grace and some lesser. I don't see you raising the deed as Peter did. Surely you recognize the greater grace of God in him. To claim that your role in life is equal in grace to bringing in to the world and caring for till his adult life, the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD is ludicris if not blasphemous. Mary's blessing was far greater than mine. That is not denying my blessing at all and I don't feel slighted by God at all.
God says "mary is blessed among women". It is clear to me that since she was blessed with the infinite Lord as her child that she was blessed more greatly than all men. Why be jealous of her blessings. In heaven there are those who will have differing rewards, as is clear from scripture. If we are jealous of another's reward, we won't be there. We are to be happy in what God has given US.

God bless

 

[Orthodox Christian]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":66eaf]

Mary, was chosen by God. She really had no choice in the matter because it was just how it was.

If she had no choice in the matter, then none of us have any choice in any matter, and believing God means nothing cuz he'll just make you believe or do anyway. This is your argument, and it's problematic on many levels.

He'll guide you to do what his will is - yes. He'll chastise you to his will - yes. This is what happened to Jonah - don't you remember?

Simply that God would allow something to happen which would lure her to his will just like he did Jonah. No biggie! Jonah was chosen to - he rejected it but then came to do God's will anyway...

God forced the stuation, but you will notice that it is Jonah who repented within the whale. Further, it is God who made the shade that cooled Jonah wither, but it was Jonah's choice to hear God and change his attitude about the obedience of Nineveh,

Why did he make that choice? Where was he? What did God do? He chastised him and then Jonah thought "Gee maybe I should have gone to ninevah" of his own free will. I do that to my children too - fancy that![/quote:66eaf]
And yet I suppose that your children retain their ability to make the wrong choice and disobey. I suppose there are also some very good parents whose children ultimately make bad choices, or even just mediocre ones.

Is it true, or not true, that God wills/desires all to be saved?
And will all be saved?
Don't skip over those two questions, they reveal the truth that your approach fails to address.

Does God not intervene, yet people chose wrong anyway?
The bodies of the children of Israel dropping dead in the wildreness outside the Promised Land testify to this.

Try as you may, you cannot eliminate human will and choice in the matter. These are absolutely central to both salvation and damnation. If human will and choice are not real, then salvation and damnation are not real either.

Honor

When we commemorate or honor Saint, Mary among them, we honor the choices and sacrifices that they make, remembering all along who made it possible for them to do so. We honor them because we honor what God is doing in the world.

 

[Heidi]

Since people have been told that there is no biblical support for praying to Mary, bowing down to statues, saying that Mary was sinless, a virgin all of her life, saying that she's a co-redeemer, etc. then the bible also says; "Let all who do evil, do evil, and all who do good do good." If people want to follow made-up gospels, it's their souls that are at stake, not mine. I think Christ is perfectly adequate to get me to heaven without relying on prayers from his mother. Paul has told them what will happen to them for this, but if they want to gamble their souls that they are right and Paul is wrong then they are free to do so. And since they have shown that they cannot be convinced to follow the bible, then I for one, no longer want to be a party to giving them a platform to pass along false teachings. They do that well enough on their own.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Since people have been told that there is no biblical support for praying to Mary, bowing down to statues, saying that Mary was sinless, a virgin all of her life, saying that she's a co-redeemer, etc. then the bible also says; "Let all who do evil, do evil, and all who do good do good." If people want to follow made-up gospels, it's their souls that are at stake, not mine. I think Christ is perfectly adequate to get me to heaven without relying on prayers from his mother. Paul has told them what will happen to them for this, but if they want to gamble their souls that they are right and Paul is wrong then they are free to do so. And since they have shown that they cannot be convinced to follow the bible, then I for one, no longer want to be a party to giving them a platform to pass along false teachings. They do that well enough on their own.

Your generalizations and non-sequiturs are like leeches draining the life out of the discussion, Heidi. I think it would do you and the discussion good if you obeyed that inner voice that tells you this is no place for you.

Thinking outside the box isn't for everyone.

Fare thee well.

 

[stovebolts]

Orthodoxy, lets clear the air once and for all.

First of all, you’re piety outreaches your own common sense. Lest I bow down before you, you will not be satisfied with anything I have to say. Furthermore, you twist and distort and jump to conclusions based on your own experiences… Your paintbrush is tainted my friend.
Jesus spoke in parables for a reason; he also didn’t answer Herod for a reason. I may be a fool to some, but I will not be played as a fool by your insinuating remarks.
For the record, let me clarify some things so that I might not be taken out of context in future discussions.
1. I have no beef with the RCC
2. I have no beef with the Orthodox.
3. I figured it out a long time ago that the Orthodox was different than the RCC.
4. If I don’t know, I don’t pretend to know. I ask or search it out.
5. My daughter is being raised with my cousin who is RC. It was I who approved her infant baptism.
6. I believe Mary is to be held in high esteem for she is the mother of our savior.
7. I believe many Protestants belittle that which they know little about in regard to Mary. It doesn’t take much research into the issue to realize that Jesus always comes before Mary according to RCC and Orthodox doctrine
8. Many RCC and I assume Orthodox parishioners do worship Mary. Both churches acknowledge this fact as an issue and warn against it. For yourself, go check out some of the Catholic forums. Many Catholics struggle with this. (I can already see your rebuttal Orthodox…Yes, I know that you are Orthodox and Yes, I am too lazy to search out Orthodox forums. Perhaps, the Orthodox are above sin in this area and cannot be tempted in this manner?)
9. Many Protestants are too conservative and for good reason. If you can pray to Mary without worshipping her, then go right ahead. On the other hand, if your hand causes you to sin, then you should cut it off, lest it be thrown into hell fire. Many Protestants simple cut to the chase and have it cut off before it’s an issue.

CatholicXian,
Thank you for your comments and ability to be civil. (Sorry for the mistaken identity : ) I will look into what you have said.

Heidi and Marry M,
You both bring about very good points that I thank you for.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Orthodoxy, lets clear the air once and for all.

First of all, you’re piety outreaches your own common sense. Lest I bow down before you, you will not be satisfied with anything I have to say. Furthermore, you twist and distort and jump to conclusions based on your own experiences… Your paintbrush is tainted my friend.
Jesus spoke in parables for a reason; he also didn’t answer Herod for a reason. I may be a fool to some, but I will not be played as a fool by your insinuating remarks.
For the record, let me clarify some things so that I might not be taken out of context in future discussions.
1. I have no beef with the RCC
2. I have no beef with the Orthodox.
3. I figured it out a long time ago that the Orthodox was different than the RCC.
4. If I don’t know, I don’t pretend to know. I ask or search it out.
5. My daughter is being raised with my cousin who is RC. It was I who approved her infant baptism.
6. I believe Mary is to be held in high esteem for she is the mother of our savior.
7. I believe many Protestants belittle that which they know little about in regard to Mary. It doesn’t take much research into the issue to realize that Jesus always comes before Mary according to RCC and Orthodox doctrine
8. Many RCC and I assume Orthodox parishioners do worship Mary. Both churches acknowledge this fact as an issue and warn against it. For yourself, go check out some of the Catholic forums. Many Catholics struggle with this. (I can already see your rebuttal Orthodox…Yes, I know that you are Orthodox and Yes, I am too lazy to search out Orthodox forums. Perhaps, the Orthodox are above sin in this area and cannot be tempted in this manner?)
9. Many Protestants are too conservative and for good reason. If you can pray to Mary without worshipping her, then go right ahead. On the other hand, if your hand causes you to sin, then you should cut it off, lest it be thrown into hell fire. Many Protestants simple cut to the chase and have it cut off before it’s an issue.

CatholicXian,
Thank you for your comments and ability to be civil. (Sorry for the mistaken identity : ) I will look into what you have said.

Heidi and Marry M,
You both bring about very good points that I thank you for.

And to think you had nothing further to say. When you are done patting yer self on the back, visit an orthodox Church and stop pretending you know what we believe.

Orthodoxy

 

[thessalonian]

Since people have been told that there is no biblical support for praying to Mary, bowing down to statues, saying that Mary was sinless, a virgin all of her life, saying that she's a co-redeemer, etc. then the bible also says; "Let all who do evil, do evil, and all who do good do good." If people want to follow made-up gospels, it's their souls that are at stake, not mine. I think Christ is perfectly adequate to get me to heaven without relying on prayers from his mother.

If his mother were in fact alive on this earth today, let's say you lived on this earth just after Jesus ascended in to heaven, would you have any problem asking her for prayers? Would that be idolatry or would it be virtuous.

Paul has told them what will happen to them for this, but if they want to gamble their souls that they are right and Paul is wrong then they are free to do so. And since they have shown that they cannot be convinced to follow the bible, then I for one, no longer want to be a party to giving them a platform to pass along false teachings. They do that well enough on their own.

Can you show me where Paul tells us not to ask others for prayers for us? I can't find it in the Bible. What do you think of the Jewish elders bowing down before the Ark of the Covant and praying in Jos 7? Do you think they were idolizing that Ark? Why was it or was it not idolatry?

Blessings

 

[stovebolts]

And to think you had nothing further to say. When you are done patting yer self on the back, visit an orthodox Church and stop pretending you know what we believe.

Orthodoxy

You love to whisper don't you? So subtle, but so clear to those that see through the darkness. So tell me, When I visit your orthodox church, will I be greeted with whispers?

It is not I that pretends to know, what I do not know. Let me ask you now, and let your yes be yes, and your no be no.

As a disclaimer, let me say before my words get distorted. Mary is blessed above all women. Mary demands her due respect. That being said,

1. Are there those among your orthodox brothers and sisters that worship Mary?
2. Have you ever prayed to Mary longer than you prayed to the Father?
3. Have you ever put more faith in Mary than the Father?
4. Why does the Catholic literature regarding Mary highlight that the name Mary needs to be mentioned with the name Jesus and not alone?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

As a disclaimer, let me say before my words get distorted. Mary is blessed above all women. Mary demands her due respect. That being said,

1. Are there those among your orthodox brothers and sisters that worship Mary?
2. Have you ever prayed to Mary longer than you prayed to the Father?
3. Have you ever put more faith in Mary than the Father?
4. Why does the Catholic literature regarding Mary highlight that the name Mary needs to be mentioned with the name Jesus and not alone?

1. In the sense that we in contemporary American culture mean 'worship,' no. Of course, we live in a time when honor is a word rare on our lips and a stranger to our hearts. There is no respect nor reverence of anything other than personal rights and opinions.
2. Never. It would be impossible in the Orthodox liturgy to do so, for all petitions, if one would call them that, to Mary, are to pray to the Father for us, to intercede for mercy. If there is no 'intermediary' as some claim, distorting the scripture, then why ever even bother to stand in a circle together and pray?
3. Never. The honor paid to Mary is to us an outworking of our fervent belief in the Mystery of the Incarnation. Every prayer, every bow, every breath in Orthodox theology is directed to God, prayer with our entire being. This is why every Orthros/Matins prayer, we pray with our whole being
Bless the Lord, O my soul, Bless His Holy Name
Bless the Lord, O my soul, and let me forget none of His benefits

How many benefits are forgotten in today's religion? We have people going to Church to be blessed, when it is upon us to bless the Lord. We should call to mind, as the Hebrews did, that He has been our refuge for all generations. One will learn nothing of the generations from the Apostles until now in modern churches. Every Hebrew child would know from memory who the prophets and heroes of faith were, yet there is nearly no adult in modern churches who knows who Athanasius was, or who the martyrs of Sebaste were, or what Saint Patrick really did, or how out fathers and mothers struggled against Islam at peril of their lives.

I've been told here that Christians have no fathers or mothers.
'Let me forget none of His benefits.' I remember well the sacrifice of the fathers and mothers, and Who they sacrificed to, and who for (us).
4. I'm not Catholic, but I can hazard a guess that their theologians wish to assure correct understanding of who Mary is and was. All truth that would come to humans must come with a fence around it, for people drift from the truth.

I don't take their caveat to be a tacit admission that Marian honor is frought with danger.

Warmest regards
James

 

[CatholicXian]

1. Are there those among your orthodox brothers and sisters that worship Mary?
2. Have you ever prayed to Mary longer than you prayed to the Father?
3. Have you ever put more faith in Mary than the Father?
4. Why does the Catholic literature regarding Mary highlight that the name Mary needs to be mentioned with the name Jesus and not alone?

I'm not Orthodoxy, but I wanted to throw out my answers (mostly in #4)...

1. Yes, there are those who worship Mary as another deity... but they do so to their own detriment and against the teachings of either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.
2. It is impossible to "pray to" Mary longer than the Father, because our prayers to those in Heaven are made possible first and only through the grace of God. Prayer apart from God (/grace) is in vain.
3. As with #2, "faith" in anything apart from faith first in God is in vain. Faith without grace means nothing. We can put faith in those in Heaven, as we put faith (/trust) in our Christian brothers and sisters on earth, only because we first recognize Christ in them through the grace of the Holy Spirit.
4. Mary's name needs to be mentioned with Jesus and not alone, because it is Christ that raises Mary to her state of supreme blessedness (i.e., she is blessed among all women because God chose her). Mary is defined by the amazing grace God poured out upon her in choosing her to give birth to the Savior of the world.

 

[stovebolts]

First, thank you for your honesty.

1. Are there those among your orthodox brothers and sisters that worship Mary?
2. Have you ever prayed to Mary longer than you prayed to the Father?
3. Have you ever put more faith in Mary than the Father?
4. Why does the Catholic literature regarding Mary highlight that the name Mary needs to be mentioned with the name Jesus and not alone?

I'm not Orthodoxy, but I wanted to throw out my answers (mostly in #4)...

1. Yes, there are those who worship Mary as another deity... but they do so to their own detriment and against the teachings of either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.

And this, is why I believe so many Protestants despise Mary. It is unfortunate, but true. Tit for Tat, Protestants have their misunderstandings too and as a result, the name of Mary is dragged through the mud.

2. It is impossible to "pray to" Mary longer than the Father, because our prayers to those in Heaven are made possible first and only through the grace of God. Prayer apart from God (/grace) is in vain.

According to #1, it is quite possible. It may be vain, but it is still possible in an chimerical fashion. That being said, I am glad that you do not fall into this vain trap.

3. As with #2, "faith" in anything apart from faith first in God is in vain. Faith without grace means nothing. We can put faith in those in Heaven, as we put faith (/trust) in our Christian brothers and sisters on earth, only because we first recognize Christ in them through the grace of the Holy Spirit.

I agree 100%. It is through that understanding, that I put aside the dogma generally associated with praying to Mary. That being said, I am not compelled to pray to Mary. I liked 1 Kings 2:13-20 as a reference. It appears to be biblical by example, yet it is not directly commanded.

Maybe it's my pride, maybe it's my unconditional gratitude knowing what the Lord has done in my life; but I don't recall asking anyone to pray for me. Maybe with me, but not for me. I don't think it's out of pride though, because I know that God answers my prayers and I put all of my faith in Him knowing that his Grace will suffice under all conditions.

Proverbs 15:29 The LORD is far from the wicked: but he hears the prayer of the righteous.

Read on, I especially take heed in verse 32 and 33. Now, I know that some may say I'm speaking in circles, for as Paul stated, there are none righteous, no, not one. However, we are made righteous with the blood of the lamb. Yes, we are wicked in every since of the word, and that is why God's grace cannot be taken for granted.

Going back to Proverbs 15:29, look at King David. Such wickedness, yet to have a heart that pleased God. Amen, there is hope!

4. Mary's name needs to be mentioned with Jesus and not alone, because it is Christ that raises Mary to her state of supreme blessedness (i.e., she is blessed among all women because God chose her). Mary is defined by the amazing grace God poured out upon her in choosing her to give birth to the Savior of the world.

And I believe that if one is being taught or drawn toward praying to Mary, then this should be ingrained into their heads. For the lack of articulation, the only similar example that I can think of at the moment is this.
Some Baptist believe that if you do not speak in tongues, then you are not saved. This, in my opinion is not biblical; yet it is pressed upon young believers that they will purposefully begin to babble under mere peer pressure for acceptance.

Tell me, is it mandatory to pray to Mary? Must one clutch their rosary under the guise of salvation such as some baptist and their speaking in tongues? Just curious.

Thanks,

 

[Merry Menagerie]

He'll guide you to do what his will is - yes. He'll chastise you to his will - yes. This is what happened to Jonah - don't you remember?p

Oh yes and I remember fine...and what did Jonah do? Sometimes we are made to suffer so that we sense - just like Jonah.

You seem to think we are all equal in terms of the grace we recieve. The fact is that we are not. Some recieve greater grace and some lesser.

And we also are given more grace as we are humpled and mature in the knowledge of God. He opposes those who are pridful too.

I don't see you raising the deed as Peter did. Surely you recognize the greater grace of God in him.

So what? So he's better than me? Is that what you're saying?

To claim that your role in life is equal in grace to bringing in to the world and caring for till his adult life, the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD is ludicris if not blasphemous.

Lucky for me, I dont' worship Mary as you do. The bible says that we are all one in Christ Jesus - I take my que from the bible.

Mary's blessing was far greater than mine. That is not denying my blessing at all and I don't feel slighted by God at all.

How is it greater when you have the saviour of the world abiding in you too?

God says "mary is blessed among women". It is clear to me that since she was blessed with the infinite Lord as her child that she was blessed more greatly than all men.

Ummm no among women of that time...since then Jesus has been able to abide in all men. We are so blessed to have the saviour of the world abiding in us.

Why be jealous of her blessings. In heaven there are those who will have differing rewards, as is clear from scripture.

Why would I be jealous? I have no reason to be, she's no better than me. She's my sister in Christ.

If we are jealous of another's reward, we won't be there. We are to be happy in what God has given US.

I'm happy for you ;) We are also not to worship any other Gods but Him too.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

And yet I suppose that your children retain their ability to make the wrong choice and disobey. I suppose there are also some very good parents whose children ultimately make bad choices, or even just mediocre ones.

Sure, but if they are any good as parents then they will guide and chastise their children properly and they're children will comply to their will.

Is it true, or not true, that God wills/desires all to be saved?
And will all be saved?
Don't skip over those two questions, they reveal the truth that your approach fails to address.

Yes he desires all to be saved and no not all will be saved. I can't see what that has to do anything.

Does God not intervene, yet people chose wrong anyway?

Yep and God will intervene again and again until we get it right.

The bodies of the children of Israel dropping dead in the wildreness outside the Promised Land testify to this.

Lucky God sent his Son then because according to the story of Israel it is impossible for us to get it right 100% so that we too enter the promise land....that's why we are to rely on Christ.

Try as you may, you cannot eliminate human will and choice in the matter.

I never did. But free will is limited to what we are able to do. I don't know about you, but I have free will to go wherever I please, but I cannot fly...Why can I not fly? Because I do not have wings. Free will only takes you as far as you are able. Free will can also be manipulated.

These are absolutely central to both salvation and damnation. If human will and choice are not real, then salvation and damnation are not real either.

Of course they are real. Limited free will and salvation and damnation can co-exsist!

Honor

When we commemorate or honor Saint, Mary among them, we honor the choices and sacrifices that they make, remembering all along who made it possible for them to do so. We honor them because we honor what God is doing in the world.

I don't honor anybody more or less than anybody else.

 

[CatholicXian]

4. Mary's name needs to be mentioned with Jesus and not alone, because it is Christ that raises Mary to her state of supreme blessedness (i.e., she is blessed among all women because God chose her). Mary is defined by the amazing grace God poured out upon her in choosing her to give birth to the Savior of the world.

And I believe that if one is being taught or drawn toward praying to Mary, then this should be ingrained into their heads. For the lack of articulation, the only similar example that I can think of at the moment is this.
Some Baptist believe that if you do not speak in tongues, then you are not saved. This, in my opinion is not biblical; yet it is pressed upon young believers that they will purposefully begin to babble under mere peer pressure for acceptance.

Tell me, is it mandatory to pray to Mary? Must one clutch their rosary under the guise of salvation such as some baptist and their speaking in tongues? Just curious.

No, it is not "mandatory" to pray to Mary or any of the other Saints, though one would have to hold it's plausibility and effectiveness in the communion of Saints (i.e., something a la 1 Corinthians 12:26, we rejoice and suffer with the rest of the Body of Christ (the Church)). For many, many Catholics, the praying of the Rosary takes time and understanding to embrace the practice. For a long time, I prayed the divine mercy chaplet on my rosary beads rather than the mysteries of the rosary (now I do both)... but my praying of the Rosary came from a fostered and growing understanding of theology and deeper embrace of Marian doctrines. Though, at the same time, it's different for all people. A good friend of mine, whom is a protestant, has no problem praying much of the "Hail Mary", she just leaves off the last line and only prays "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus" and tells people that she is praying Scripture.

Catechesis (the teaching of the faith) is something that is beginning again to be fervently taught and emphasized in the Church again. It is important to explain things to our children, and not only explain them, but to live them out in our daily lives.

And thanks again, StoveBolts, for your kindness. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[thessalonian]

I never did. But free will is limited to what we are able to do. I don't know about you, but I have free will to go wherever I please, but I cannot fly...Why can I not fly? Because I do not have wings. Free will only takes you as far as you are able. Free will can also be manipulated.

Actually this is a false understanding of free will. Free will is not the ability to do whatever we please. Free will is the ability to do good. Men who are in their sins, not in Christ, are not men who have free will. They, as the scriptures indicate time and time again, are enslaved by their sins. Adam and Eve in the Garden before the fall had free will. They did not have it afterward. Their flesh became disordered and more powerful than their will. The desires of the flesh overcame their capacity for good. Christ came that our spirit might be healed that we might again have true free will. The ability to choose good. That is why the scriptures say "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Free from the bondage of sin which we can now overcome by his grace.

 

[Theophilus]

This is a "biggie". There is a difference between going to a country when you do not want to and being persuaded to carry God in your womb when you really do not want to.
With Jonah is was Gods will that the Nineveh be preached to, then it was their choice
With Mary, it was her body God was going to abide in. Big difference

NO DIFFERENCE They both had an important job to do. I have God abiding in me too - so am I better than mary?

I think the you do not understand the miracle which is the "Incarnation". When we understand fact that, He who was incorporeal took on flesh, He who was outside of time was born.
Do you remember what only a gaze at his back did to the face of moses?
Yet, he was seen and held by his mother and others.

Yes, you may have God in you, but the incarnation happened only once! and it did not happen through you. Of all the women, of all times, only one was blessed with that privilege.

I don't see you raising the deed as Peter did. Surely you recognize the greater grace of God in him.

So what? So he's better than me? Is that what you're saying?

When i was a Protestant i asked the the same question and it was pride that motivated me. What motivates you to ask it?

Matthew 23:12
12"Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted
Mark 9:33-35
34But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest.
35Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."

 

[Merry Menagerie]

And Free will is given along with Grace...which is also limited to our maturity etc etc...therefore our free will is limited.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Yes, you may have God in you, but the incarnation happened only once! and it did not happen through you. Of all the women, of all times, only one was blessed with that privilege.

So lets all bow down and worship her shall we? Not! Sorry no can do...I only have eyes for Christ.

When i was a Protestant i asked the the same question and it was pride that motivated me. What motivates you to ask it?

The knowledge that we are all one in Christ Jesus and that no one is better than anyone.

 

[Theophilus]

Merry Menagerie,
When you understand the Incarnation, you will understand the rest.
This concept of "Me and Jesus" is not what the Church is supposed to be.
It is US and Jesus. Us, here on earth or in heaven with the Lord. I would have no problem honoring a "godly" person on earth. why have a problem with one in heaven.