Was Mary the MOST blesseded of all except Christ?

[Orthodoxy]

Free,

Saint Irenaeus on Mary

"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husbandâ€â€for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiplyâ€â€having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith" (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

and

"The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree [i.e., the cross]. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away withâ€â€the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten" (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Do you agree with Saint Irenaeus on Mary?

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

And who was responsible for mary carying Christ in her womb? So why do we give the credit to Mary for this instead of God himself? That is envy and hero-worship. Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." I believe him. Others don't have to.

We give credit to Mary for saying "YES" to God and not "NO" to God as Eve did. What is wrong with that? Do you not honor the war dead that have given their lives to die for you? Mary "took up her Cross" to follow God! Mary made the greatest sacrifice to have the incarnate Son of God, she laid down her life for His. She is the prototype christian. Self sacrifice. Is that not what Jesus askes a Christian to do?

Placing ones self on the level of Mary is self envy and self hero worship. Why must you think of self as "equal to Mary"?

Orthodoxy

No wonder God resists the proud. It is ugly.

So you think that you and everyone else is bigger than God or the devil? :o If you do, Orthodoxy, then you are way off the mark on this one.

I give credit to God for everything good in me, not to myself. None of us is qualified to judge who is good and who is bad. "No one from the east or the west or the desert can judge a man. But God alone is judge." You really should study the bible so that you won't contradict it, Orthodoxy.

I am not the one trying to kick Mary out of her rightful place next to her Son in the Kingdom of Heaven. I am not the one trying to sit my butt in her place at the King's Table. I admit my seat is way in the back. Way, way, way, way in the back. Do you remember the parable of the King's Banquet?

Orthodoxy

 

[Heidi]

And who was responsible for mary carying Christ in her womb? So why do we give the credit to Mary for this instead of God himself? That is envy and hero-worship. Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." I believe him. Others don't have to.

We give credit to Mary for saying "YES" to God and not "NO" to God as Eve did. What is wrong with that? Do you not honor the war dead that have given their lives to die for you? Mary "took up her Cross" to follow God! Mary made the greatest sacrifice to have the incarnate Son of God, she laid down her life for His. She is the prototype christian. Self sacrifice. Is that not what Jesus askes a Christian to do?

Placing ones self on the level of Mary is self envy and self hero worship. Why must you think of self as "equal to Mary"?

Orthodoxy

No wonder God resists the proud. It is ugly.

So you think that you and everyone else is bigger than God or the devil? :o If you do, Orthodoxy, then you are way off the mark on this one.

I give credit to God for everything good in me, not to myself. None of us is qualified to judge who is good and who is bad. "No one from the east or the west or the desert can judge a man. But God alone is judge." You really should study the bible so that you won't contradict it, Orthodoxy.

I am not the one trying to kick Mary out of her rightful place next to her Son in the Kingdom of Heaven. I am not the one trying to sit my butt in her place at the King's Table. I admit my seat is way in the back. Way, way, way, way in the back. Do you remember the parable of the King's Banquet?

Orthodoxy

As Jesus said, the place at the right hand of the Father is not even for him to grant, only God. And you dare to think you can decide that? I think you better make sure that you will even sit at the table, my friend.

And when did I say that I would have the place of honor or even near it at the king's table? If you didn't hero-worship, then you wouldn't even think about where anyone sits! It's not for you to grant.

 

[thessalonian]

And who was responsible for mary carying Christ in her womb? So why do we give the credit to Mary for this instead of God himself? That is envy and hero-worship. Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." I believe him. Others don't have to.

This is about acknowledging what God has done in his plan of salvation. We completely agree that Mary did not do this on her own. That it was God working through her. You set up straw men to knock them over. We are in fact according to scripture to look at what God has done in the lives of the ones who are faithful to him and imiate it.

1 Cor 4
15: For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
16: I urge you, then, be imitators of me.

1 Cor 11

1: Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Heb 6
12: so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

We as humans have a natural inclination to imiate others. God puts people of faith in our lives as examples (heros) for us. God has given us examples of the past for us to imiate. You need to consider these things. You have not been taught them quite apparently and are blind to them simply because a Catholic and and Ordodox are telling you what is plain in scripture.

Blessings

 

[Free]

It is you that claims Mary is just another woman, a sinner just like you.

I ask you to give me one scripture showing Mary committing a sin. You cannot. It is you that claims the bible as the "final authority" in all things. Well show me a sin of Mary in the bible or we must assume she never committed a sin.

Show me where Jesus puts his mother higher than other other women or we must assume he thought of her like every other woman, especially since we actually do have verses that imply that.

Until you clear up this contradiction, I have nothing left to say.

 

[CatholicXian]

Show me where Jesus puts his mother higher than other other women or we must assume he thought of her like every other woman, especially since we actually do have verses that imply that.

With regards to having verses that imply Jesus "thought of [Mary] like every other woman"... where do you see this?

If you refer to Luke 11:27-28 I would have to greatly disagree. Jesus does not knock Mary with those verses. He first admits Mary's blessedness ("Yea, rather..." is not a condemnation--go back to the Greek!), and then Christ goes on to say "blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it". Who was the FIRST person to 'hear the word of God and keep it'? Mary. And she did so in a more profound way than any of us are even capable of. And lastly, that passage is not really about Mary... it was a call to wake up and pay attention, so to speak, when we read it in its proper context. The woman in the crowd who called out the blessing about Mary interupted Christ's teaching about the Kingdom of God--she was so busy being distracted by physical signs and wonders she was missing the opportunity to learn and grow in knowledge of He who controls the physical world.

Furthermore, as perfect man, Christ followed all of the Commandments--he held them in perfect accord. Thus too, in confessing Christ's sinlessness we must also confess that He always held Mary in honor as His mother.

 

[stovebolts]

I spent a day last week in Detroit visiting churches and picking up literature. This piece is interesting to me. Note, every thing I've found on Mary, has in bold;
Names of Jesus and Mary

In every danger of forfeiting divine grace, we should think of Mary, and

invoke her name, together with that of Jesus; FOR THESE TWO NAMES ALWAYS GO TOGETHER
TheHolyNameofMary

Apparently, this St. Bridget (1300's) had a vision.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02782a.htm

I was surprised and intrigued...

Consoling indeed are the promises of help made by Jesus Christ to those who have devotion to the name of Mary; for one day in the hearing of St.
Bridget, He promised His most holy Mother that He would grant three special graces to those who invoke that holy name with confidence: first, that He would grant them perfect sorrow for their sins; secondly, that their crimes should be atoned for; and, thirdly, that He would give them strength to attain perfection, and at length the glory of paradise. And then our Divine Savior added: "For thy words, O My Mother, are so sweet and agreeable to Me, that I cannot deny what thou askest."

 

[Heidi]

And who was responsible for mary carying Christ in her womb? So why do we give the credit to Mary for this instead of God himself? That is envy and hero-worship. Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." I believe him. Others don't have to.

This is about acknowledging what God has done in his plan of salvation. We completely agree that Mary did not do this on her own. That it was God working through her. You set up straw men to knock them over. We are in fact according to scripture to look at what God has done in the lives of the ones who are faithful to him and imiate it.

1 Cor 4
15: For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
16: I urge you, then, be imitators of me.

1 Cor 11

1: Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Heb 6
12: so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

We as humans have a natural inclination to imiate others. God puts people of faith in our lives as examples (heros) for us. God has given us examples of the past for us to imiate. You need to consider these things. You have not been taught them quite apparently and are blind to them simply because a Catholic and and Ordodox are telling you what is plain in scripture.

Blessings

And Paul also tells us in 1Co 3:4-7, "For when one says; 'I follow Paul' and another; 'I follow Appolos' Are you not mere men? What after all is appollos? And what is Paul? Only servants through whom you came to believe-as the Lord assigned us to his task. I planted the seed and Appollows watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who makes things grow."

And when the rich man addressed Christ as "good sir", Jesus replied, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." And he means exactly that. No one is good but God alone. He didn't even include himself as being good! So how can anyone have the audacity to declare that Mary is good? This is directly contradicting Christ's words for what reason? :o Why on earth would people who claim to be Christians defy Christ's words for the words of other men? There's no excuse for it.

 

[thessalonian]

so how can anyone have the audacity to declare that Mary is good? This is directly contradicting Christ's words for what reason? Why on earth would people who claim to be Christians defy Christ's words for the words of other men? There's no excuse for it.[/qoute]

Are the verses that I quoted not in your bible that you would go off on some tangent and then accuse me of audacity. Does the Bible contradict itself? If Paul did not have some good in him by the grace of God for them to imitate then why on earth was he telling them to IMITATE HIM. Are you really this bitter toward the Mother of the Lord?

 

[Orthodoxy]

It is you that claims Mary is just another woman, a sinner just like you.

I ask you to give me one scripture showing Mary committing a sin. You cannot. It is you that claims the bible as the "final authority" in all things. Well show me a sin of Mary in the bible or we must assume she never committed a sin.

Show me where Jesus puts his mother higher than other other women or we must assume he thought of her like every other woman, especially since we actually do have verses that imply that.

Until you clear up this contradiction, I have nothing left to say.

I did clear this up with your own verse. Jesus tells the crowd "who is my mother?" Well Mary is standing right there, a woman who did the will of God by agreeing with God to have Christ the Lord as a Son. Now you tell me:

Did Mary do the will of God or not? If Yes then she is "the Mother". If No them she is what you say " just another woman" like any woman God could have "used" without her consent.

Also your admission Jesus dishonored His own mother which would be a sin. So you are telling me Jesus Christ commited a sin by breaking the 5th commandment. Well I refuse to believe this blaphemous theology.

You would have me believe Jesus Christ sinned in giving Mary to John the Theologian at the Cross for in jewish tradition the mother always was recieved by blood relatives but Jesus's "brothers and sisters" could not be trusted with Mary. Here again the falacy of the heterodox understanding of Mary's "work" in the salvation of man. Why did Jesus Christ bother giving John His mother if He disrespected her an "just another woman"?

Do you look at your mother as "just another woman" yet you believe Jesus looked at His mother this way? Why would I believe Jesus Christ had no feelings for His mother when I have feelings for my own?

This is plain silliness bordering on madness.

I have nothing left to say

Good. Silence.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

I spent a day last week in Detroit visiting churches and picking up literature. This piece is interesting to me. Note, every thing I've found on Mary, has in bold;
Names of Jesus and Mary

In every danger of forfeiting divine grace, we should think of Mary, and

invoke her name, together with that of Jesus; FOR THESE TWO NAMES ALWAYS GO TOGETHER
TheHolyNameofMary

Apparently, this St. Bridget (1300's) had a vision.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02782a.htm

I was surprised and intrigued...

Consoling indeed are the promises of help made by Jesus Christ to those who have devotion to the name of Mary; for one day in the hearing of St.
Bridget, He promised His most holy Mother that He would grant three special graces to those who invoke that holy name with confidence: first, that He would grant them perfect sorrow for their sins; secondly, that their crimes should be atoned for; and, thirdly, that He would give them strength to attain perfection, and at length the glory of paradise. And then our Divine Savior added: "For thy words, O My Mother, are so sweet and agreeable to Me, that I cannot deny what thou askest."

Visit an orthodox Church in Detroit StoveBolts?

St. Raphael of Brooklyn Church, Detroit, MI

http://www.oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SID=9 ... -RO-DETSRM

The Ascension of The Lord Monastery

http://www.oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SID=9 ... -RO-DETHAM

SS. Peter and Paul Cathedral, Detroit MI

http://www.oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SID=9 ... -MW-DETSPP

Holy Trinity Church, Detroit MI

http://www.oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SID=9 ... -MW-DETHTC

or did you visit only Roman Catholic Churches?

St. Bridget is a saint of the Roman Church in 1300 ad not the Orthodox Faith. Your romaphobia is showing. Sorry bashing the Roman Church as a guise in bashing the Orthodox Church is plain ignorance of your enemy and historical facts.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

And who was responsible for mary carying Christ in her womb? So why do we give the credit to Mary for this instead of God himself? That is envy and hero-worship. Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." I believe him. Others don't have to.

We give credit to Mary for saying "YES" to God and not "NO" to God as Eve did. What is wrong with that? Do you not honor the war dead that have given their lives to die for you? Mary "took up her Cross" to follow God! Mary made the greatest sacrifice to have the incarnate Son of God, she laid down her life for His. She is the prototype christian. Self sacrifice. Is that not what Jesus askes a Christian to do?

Placing ones self on the level of Mary is self envy and self hero worship. Why must you think of self as "equal to Mary"?

Orthodoxy

No wonder God resists the proud. It is ugly.

So you think that you and everyone else is bigger than God or the devil? :o If you do, Orthodoxy, then you are way off the mark on this one.

I give credit to God for everything good in me, not to myself. None of us is qualified to judge who is good and who is bad. "No one from the east or the west or the desert can judge a man. But God alone is judge." You really should study the bible so that you won't contradict it, Orthodoxy.

I am not the one trying to kick Mary out of her rightful place next to her Son in the Kingdom of Heaven. I am not the one trying to sit my butt in her place at the King's Table. I admit my seat is way in the back. Way, way, way, way in the back. Do you remember the parable of the King's Banquet?

Orthodoxy

As Jesus said, the place at the right hand of the Father is not even for him to grant, only God. And you dare to think you can decide that? I think you better make sure that you will even sit at the table, my friend.

And when did I say that I would have the place of honor or even near it at the king's table? If you didn't hero-worship, then you wouldn't even think about where anyone sits! It's not for you to grant.

You take my seat for as long as you have a seat I maybe saved.

Orthodoxy

 

[stovebolts]

Thanks for the links Orthodoxy. I'll make sure that I check out an Orthodox Church next time I'm downtown Detroit. Actually, I was in Greek Town and had about 3 hours to kill. I did ask the locals for an Orthodox church in the area, but couldn't find one. Tell me, are they open every day as well?

I was shocked and Intrigued to read the literature on Mary from the RCC. Actually, I thought that the words of Jesus were from one of the books not in the Protestant Bible. Tell me Orthodox, does your Church hold such Saints and their visions in such high esteem as the RCC in regard to Mary?

As far as any romaphobia, I have not yet been caloused as some of my Protestant Brothers and Sisters. Keep up the good work though, I'm sure you'll get me there. Ohh, and while were at it, last time I checked, I believe Catholic Xian was RCC. Considering my post was below his, you could at least assume I was speaking to him since it was from his doctrine that I'm sure he is quite aware of.

But again, you never were very good at assuming.

 

[Orthodoxy]

StoveBolts,

Please, StoveBolts I desire and demand straight up answers. I guess I am stupid that way, StoveBolts but Jesus did say to me through his "final authority" that one should:

Simply let your `Yes' be `Yes,' and your `No,' `No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. Matthew 5:33-37

Do you see why now I demand yeses and nos, StoveBolts?

The proper answer to my up front and straight forward question should have been this, StoveBolts:

No, Orthodoxy. I did not visit an orthodox church. I was to lazy to pick up as phone book and look for one. I am not intelligent enough to look up the OCA website and look for a parish. I am sorry for targeting you with anti roman catholic garbage and prognostications in my ignorance of thinking that orthodox Christians are roman catholics. I truly am sorry for painting the orthodox faith with a roman brush.

The "no" would have sufficed, StoveBolts.

StoveBolts says:

Tell me Orthodox, does your Church hold such Saints and their visions in such high esteem as the RCC in regard to Mary?

Let me answer your question StoveBolts with this:

Yes, StoveBolts. The Orthodox Church as one voice reverence and honor Mary and the saints. Family's tend to do that, StoveBolts.

No, StoveBolts. We are not Roman Catholics, StoveBolts. I have told that to you before, StoveBolts. If an imposter does the same thing you do should I believe he is you?

May I expound on my yes and no answers to you StoveBolts? Thanks :D

Here in America we have our Fathers of the Nation ie George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Abe Lincoln. Great monument have been built to these "fathers" in heterodox christian America (idolotry?). Stone images (idols?) of presidents are carved into rock walls in South Dakota. Busts (idols?) of all the great leaders of America are found in the mighty halls of American government. We have our "Icon" the flag of the United States of America. We have a "statement of faith" or American "creed" in America called the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag (idol worship?). Hymns of America ie the Star Spangled Banner and America the beautiful are sung. We have our "feast days" in America ie 4th of July, Thanksgiving Day, Halloween, Veterans Day, Martin Luther King Day and Christmas, etc, etc, etc. We relevance and honor those brave men and women killed in battle. The "faith of America" builds great monuments to honor and reverence them, who hear would place themselve before these men and women in the "blessed" department? None. We lay aside special days to honor the fallen hero’s of the American faith, take days off work, have parades (processions). We never forget those that died to bring us freedom.

YET the heterodox christian rhetoric and prognostications (teachings) condemn and vilify the martyrs of the Christian faith. From what I see they spit in the face of those that died for the faith in Jesus Christ! The heterodox christian will curse and mock the icons (Images of Saints) of God the Father yet up lift their idols. The heterodox christian will trash the hymnography and songs that honor and worship God found in His Church. The heterodox christian mocks the fathers of the Christian faith calling them heretics of "their version" of "the Church". Whores and imbeciles that died for the faith they claim so fervently! The "statement of faith" is not even needed and a "creation of men" so discarded as garbage, the work of the Holy Spirit, trashed by the so called heterodox christian faith QUOTE UN QUOTE! The heterodox christian calls the traditions of God DEAD RITUAL and meaningless dribble yet sit in their pews with pious contempt for those that gave their lives for their so-called "christian faith". Feast day? what is that? The Life of God found in the Church is cursed, mocked and divided by the heterodox christians like the garments of Christ divided by the heathen soldiers that killed the Lord of Grace. The great men and women that held fast to the faith of Christianity are brutalized and mocked, martyred still to this day by the heterodox christians yet the traditions of man found in America are greater than these!

Good enough, StoveBolts?

As far as any romaphobia, I have not yet been caloused as some of my Protestant Brothers and Sisters. Keep up the good work though, I'm sure you'll get me there. Ohh, and while were at it, last time I checked, I believe Catholic Xian was RCC. Considering my post was below his, you could at least assume I was speaking to him since it was from his doctrine that I'm sure he is quite aware of.

You cannot fool the once fooled but nice try, StoveBolts.

But again, you never were very good at assuming.

The emperor wears no cloths, StoveBolts.

Unworthy Servant,

Orthodoxy

 

[CatholicXian]

ahem, I'm a female. isn't my avatar and sig image girly enough? ;-)

Anyhow, StoveBolts, I think I remember a few discussions with you and can vouch that you are much more charitable (and thus, much nicer to discuss theological disagreements with) than many members on this board. It's easily understandable that so many are offended (as no one likes to be thought of as "in the wrong") but the way in which many of us (myself often included) express our differences is far from Christ-like. I hope we all work on that in the future. But thanks, Stove, for your kindness.

Regarding the churches you visited in Detriot and the Marian literature you picked up... One must remember that everything has a context in which it was meant to be taken. The names of Jesus and Mary go together because they are a family-- we remember Christ when we think of Mary because she consented to be His mother in a great act of faith and trust in the Lord. The quote from St. Bridget is based upon the "Queen Mother Tradition" found in the Bible-- 1 Kings 2:13-20. Because Jesus is our King, Mary, as the mother of Jesus, is the Queen of Heaven (and sits at the right of Jesus, which is why He told the Apostles he could not give the seat to them--it was already decided by God when Mary said "yes" to being the mother of Jesus.) Also, one must remember that anything Mary would ask of Christ would be asked in accordance with God's will, since in her life on earth she acted in accord with Divine Providence. Look at the Wedding of Cana--she interceeded for the first miracle of Christ--she asked, and He provided.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Indeed she had many choices in the matter. She chose to believe Gabriel's message. She chose to accept God's will. She chose to be at the Cross. She chose to be in the Uppper Room when the Spirit fell.

Your Calvinism is showing. I thought you had no tradition.

ROFL about the Calvinism - long story about that...don't ask ;) Needless to say, I do not have a tradition or a denomination and I don't belong to an institution.

Mary, was chosen by God. She really had no choice in the matter because it was just how it was. What would have happened if she said "no I don't want to?" Simply that God would allow something to happen which would lure her to his will just like he did Jonah. No biggie! Jonah was chosen to - he rejected it but then came to do God's will anyway...All because God was in control and caused him to be eaten by a big 'ole fish. Needless to say - Jonah WAS going to go to ninevah and that was that...sooner or later he WAS going to go...because it was God's will that he did.

None of us are any different.

 

[Heidi]

Good post, Merry. I only wish more people who call themselves Christians and say they worship God would give God the credit ofr whom he chooses rather than the person himself/herself. But because of the sin of pride, many people give the person credit instead of God himself. Pretty sad. :

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Mary, was chosen by God. She really had no choice in the matter because it was just how it was.

If she had no choice in the matter, then none of us have any choice in any matter, and believing God means nothing cuz he'll just make you believe or do anyway. This is your argument, and it's problematic on many levels.

What would have happened if she said "no I don't want to?"

Since God knew what her answer would be, one cannot posit the alternative. That is the paradox. This does not change the reality of her choice.

Simply that God would allow something to happen which would lure her to his will just like he did Jonah. No biggie! Jonah was chosen to - he rejected it but then came to do God's will anyway...

God forced the stuation, but you will notice that it is Jonah who repented within the whale. Further, it is God who made the shade that cooled Jonah wither, but it was Jonah's choice to hear God and change his attitude about the obedience of Nineveh,

All because God was in control and caused him to be eaten by a big 'ole fish. Needless to say - Jonah WAS going to go to ninevah and that was that...sooner or later he WAS going to go...because it was God's will that he did.

None of us are any different.

Really? The we'll ALL be saved then, eh? Because it is God's will that none should perish, dear, all God has to do is set the circumstance and they cannot resist, right? Because if there is no real choice, then there is no real reward or punishment.

 

[Theophilus]

Mary, was chosen by God. She really had no choice in the matter because it was just how it was. What would have happened if she said "no I don't want to?" Simply that God would allow something to happen which would lure her to his will just like he did Jonah. No biggie!

This is a "biggie". There is a difference between going to a country when you do not want to and being persuaded to carry God in your womb when you really do not want to.
With Jonah is was Gods will that the Nineveh be preached to, then it was their choice
With Mary, it was her body God was going to abide in. Big difference

None of us are any different.

Matthew 23:36-38
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;

We can reject Gods will by disobedience.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Mary, was chosen by God. She really had no choice in the matter because it was just how it was.

If she had no choice in the matter, then none of us have any choice in any matter, and believing God means nothing cuz he'll just make you believe or do anyway. This is your argument, and it's problematic on many levels.

He'll guide you to do what his will is - yes. He'll chastise you to his will - yes. This is what happened to Jonah - don't you remember?

Simply that God would allow something to happen which would lure her to his will just like he did Jonah. No biggie! Jonah was chosen to - he rejected it but then came to do God's will anyway...

God forced the stuation, but you will notice that it is Jonah who repented within the whale. Further, it is God who made the shade that cooled Jonah wither, but it was Jonah's choice to hear God and change his attitude about the obedience of Nineveh,

Why did he make that choice? Where was he? What did God do? He chastised him and then Jonah thought "Gee maybe I should have gone to ninevah" of his own free will. I do that to my children too - fancy that!