Water baptism a requirement for church membership?

[Dennyh]

This question stems from a conversation I had with a fellow believer at work the other day. So should water baptism be a requirement for church membership? Do the churches you know require it? Not require but encourage it? Not focus on it at all?
When I say "church membership" I am referring to membership in a local congregation, not THE church. I will give my opinion a bit later but I am interested in your thoughts.

 

[Tina]

.

Not sure what's the difference between a "local congregation" and the "church" .... but yes, most churches do require baptism before membership.



:yes

 

[stovebolts]

1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized into the name of Paul?

When we look at 1 Corinthians, we see that people were claiming their identity by 'whom' they followed, or 'whom' baptized them (think denomination). Sadly, they lost their focus as they looked at the act, and not what what was being accomplished. As it relates to today's denominations, is it any wonder why baptism has been so 'watered down'? Is it any wonder that people are still placing their identity with a denomination, and not with Jesus? No wonder people say baptism is merely 'an outward sign'.

Why is it we have forgotten the simple truth?
Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

What else is there to be said?

 

[PouringRain]

I agree with StoveBolts. Baptism into a specific church should not be a requirement for church membership. It is also like saying one church's baptism is not as good as another's.

 

[Nick]

I agree with StoveBolts. Baptism into a specific church should not be a requirement for church membership. It is also like saying one church's baptism is not as good as another's.

I tend to agree, although between denominations it can get interesting.

To the OP, what do you mean by membership?

 

[Michae1]

The churches I have looked at do not specifically say that you must be baptized to become a member, but they state in their beliefs that baptism is required to be saved. So I guess they are implying it.

I do not see the need for either membership or water baptism. Those are earthly religious inventions created by man.

 

[Igor]

Baptism has been a requirement for every church I have either been a member of or attended frequently. It seems reasonable, since even Jesus was baptized. And after Jesus' baptism, God said he was pleased! ("And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."", Matt 3:17, NIV)

What I have a hard time accepting are some of the more legalistic requirements of it. I've never attended one where you have to be baptized by that particular local church, but have been to several that reject sprinkling baptism and make you get re-baptized by submersion. Others have required baptism in their particular denomination, and one Baptist church even required that you had to be baptized in a Baptist church that had the same doctrine and traditions of their particular congregation. (There can be huge differences among Baptist churches.) A lot of that seems like just legalism and an excuse for bickering.

I have never been a member of a church that stated you had to be baptized to be saved, but i know they are out there. I don't belive that is Biblical. Salvation comes through Jesus' death as payment for our sins when we belive in Him and accept him as savior, not through Baptism. When the criminal hanging on a cross beside Jesus confessed his sins and believed in Jesus, Jesus said "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43, NIV). Clearly he was never baptised, but was saved. Seems that to say otherwise is to call Jesus a liar.

 

[Dennyh]

I tend to agree, although between denominations it can get interesting.

To the OP, what do you mean by membership?

Ability to hold a position in the ministry, vote in church business meetings, etc.

To clarify the original question, it was referring to a church requiring a person to have been baptized at some point after their conversion(either at that church or another) before being allowed to become a member. Not baptized by that church to join that church. Sorry for any confusion.


My persona take is that since baptism is not essential for salvation it should not be essential for church membership. If it is not required to get to heaven then it shouldn't be required to be a church member. It should still be stressed as an important ordinance for a believer to follow, just not forced. It could very easily become man-made requirement for salvation. Something Jesus would frown upon.

 

[stovebolts]

Salvation comes through Jesus' death as payment for our sins when we belive in Him and accept him as savior

ASV: Romans 6:3-6 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;

 

[stovebolts]

I do not see the need for either membership or water baptism. Those are earthly religious inventions created by man.

And this is what saddens me... There has been such a disruption on the matter, that baptism is now primarily viewed by some first and foremost as a religious rite and nothing more. It has become a work void of grace. It was never intended to be such.

 

[stovebolts]

Denny,

While I appreciate your OP, I'd like to bring to light what Jesus himself said.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

What I think Jesus would frown upon, is when baptism is void of grace and is no longer associated with his death, burial and resurrection but instead is seen as a religious rite seen as some type of initiation into a club of sorts...

BTW, search the scriptures and it was normative for Baptism to be a trait that one has entered into the Church.

 

[Strangelove]

I've never been to church in my life.

So I did a self-babtism in the shower.

((Just to hedge my bets))

Lolz......Water not necessary. Babtism is by the Holy Spirit.

 

[stovebolts]

Strangelove,
There is a story in the Bible where the people's hearts were pricked after the reality of their ways... It's recorded in the book of acts.

Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do? And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Why do you think the Apostles told them to repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins before they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? In other words, why is it do you think the giving of the Holy Spirit was conditional upon their repentance and baptism in this situation?

 

[Dennyh]

And this is what saddens me... There has been such a disruption on the matter, that baptism is now primarily viewed by some first and foremost as a religious rite and nothing more. It has become a work void of grace. It was never intended to be such.

Water baptism without repentance and surrendering your life to Jesus does nothing but get you wet. Water baptism was intended as an outward show of an inward change. A way a person can show everyone that they have made a decision to live for Jesus.

Denny,

While I appreciate your OP, I'd like to bring to light what Jesus himself said.



What I think Jesus would frown upon, is when baptism is void of grace and is no longer associated with his death, burial and resurrection but instead is seen as a religious rite seen as some type of initiation into a club of sorts...

BTW, search the scriptures and it was normative for Baptism to be a trait that one has entered into the Church.

Exactly!

 

[Strangelove]

Strangelove,
There is a story in the Bible where the people's hearts were pricked after the reality of their ways... It's recorded in the book of acts.

Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do? And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Why do you think the Apostles told them to repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins before they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? In other words, why is it do you think the giving of the Holy Spirit was conditional upon their repentance and baptism in this situation?

I dont think theres any strong order there with regard to babtism and Holy Spirit. Or timeframe.

Whats certain is first you repent (turn away from sin) which is by no means immediate. Could take weeks or months.

So when you repent in the name of Christ THEN you will be babtized and recieve the Holy Spirit. Nothing to indicate these two cant happen together. Which basically means babtism IN the Holy Spirit.

Problem?

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Denny,

Water baptism was intended as an outward show of an inward change.

I agree Denny. Now, I have my idea of what this outward showing is, and I also have an idea what this inward change is. However, most people that say this can't go any further than make the statement you've made and this big argument always seems to follow.

Is it possible that this outward show, is that of being a member of the visible church? In like, could we say that this inward change is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

 

[stovebolts]

Strangelove,

Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

According to this narrative (and there are other narratives that don't follow this pattern). But, according to this pattern, their hearts are pricked, they are called to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins and as a result, they will be given the Holy Spirit.

So we see that in this case, there are several things that are written according to the text for these to receive the Holy Spirit.
1. A new awareness which is felt. (Their hearts were pricked)
2. A turning away from the old ways in accordance with this new awareness
3. Baptism (water) for the forgivness of their sins.

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Dictionary.com defines and as:
(used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover: pens and pencils.

So we see that it isn't a single event that grants the Holy Spirit, but rather a series of events.

 

[Strangelove]

Strangelove,

Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

According to this narrative (and there are other narratives that don't follow this pattern). But, according to this pattern, their hearts are pricked, they are called to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins and as a result, they will be given the Holy Spirit.

So we see that in this case, there are several things that are written according to the text for one to receive the Holy Spirit.
1. A new awareness which is felt.
2. A turning away from the old ways in accordance with this new awareness
3. Baptism (water) for the forgivness of their sins.

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Dictionary.com defines and as:
(used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover: pens and pencils.

Wow....um...are you saying that all Christians need to have a water babtism in order to recieve the Holy Spirit?

Just wanna clarify before I start debating your point.

 

[stovebolts]

Strangelove,

It doesn't really matter what I believe, though I did state (and there are other narratives that don't follow this pattern). What's important is what the scriptures say.

To that end, we're talking about a particular piece of scripture and I think I've laid it out pretty clearly. Care to join in the discussion?

 

[Nathan]

Wow...there are some varied opinions on this, huh?

I like the 'watered' down quote. lol. In fact, I thought about the very thing myself this morning. I thought, "wow, we have really 'watered' down baptism". I laughed, then I grieved.

We completely misunderstand the word "baptism". I know I have posted something like this before, but it never hurts to reiterate the fact behind true baptism.

The word that Jesus uses is interesting to say the least;

Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

The word is baptizō -
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3) to overwhelm

This definition, as well as the rest is taken from blueletterbible.org;

The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (baptô) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizô) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.

So. In order to fulfill the commandment Jesus made in Matthew with water; we would have to take the individual to a body of water, put them under the water, and wait till they became water...

But...Jesus said to 'baptize' them in the 'name of'...So...we teach them, we instruct them, "immerse" them into the doctrine[body of teaching Jesus taught while here on the earth] of the Lord. We completely OVERWHELM them to the point that they 'take on' the image of Christ. Like the cucumber eventually takes on, or rather 'in', the vinegar.

Instead what we do is fight over whether one has to be dunked, sprinkled, showered...river, pond, lake, bathtub...

We have seriously "watered down" the meaning of the word. We do our "form" of baptizing people and never once fulfill the command of Christ. Countless upon countless 'people' are walking around completely convinced they have been baptized, and they do not have a drop of Christ in them...

Sad...