Water baptism a requirement for church membership?

[Dennyh]

[

and I like the idea of fried chicken too. Bakaaaawwwwwww ]

It is sort of a running joke in the south about Baptists and their fried chicken. My sister is married to a Baptist minister so I tease them about it often.

 

[jasoncran]

Jason,
For the purpose of clarity and not that for sake of argument. What do you believe the purpose of water baptism signifies?

symbolic of our death and resurection, and that we we died with christ. and are risen with him in the heavenlies.

an open proclamation of our faith to the world. in china men would die for this act or in iran and so on.

 

[Bazz1040]

This question stems from a conversation I had with a fellow believer at work the other day. So should water baptism be a requirement for church membership? Do the churches you know require it? Not require but encourage it? Not focus on it at all?
When I say "church membership" I am referring to membership in a local congregation, not THE church. I will give my opinion a bit later but I am interested in your thoughts.

Well first thing, there is a difference between being a member of a Church and being a citizen of the kingdom of God. But anyway, I can't imagine anyone that truly has their mind open refusing to get baptized. It is not a requirement for salvation but it is an outward testimony that the individual have died to sin, and has been raised to new life. In the Old Testament the prophets of God had the Spirit of God, even though there was no baptism. And there have been those that received the Spirit of God before they were baptized, and got baptized afterwards.

 

[stovebolts]

symbolic of our death and resurection, and that we we died with christ. and are risen with him in the heavenlies.

an open proclamation of our faith to the world. in china men would die for this act or in iran and so on.

Thank you Jason. So in essence, you would agree that it is something that show's our unity within Christ. In other words, being that the Church is the body of Christ, we make up the Visible Church on earth and baptism attests to this truth.

 

[jasoncran]

Thank you Jason. So in essence, you would agree that it is something that show's our unity within Christ. In other words, being that the Church is the body of Christ, we make up the Visible Church on earth and baptism attests to this truth.

as an open statement then but not a means of transformation, the holy spirit and reading the word do this.

that is plainly said in the nt several times by paul.

and i do for the record believe that baptism is necessary but not a salvanic issue,but i wonder about one wouldnt be baptised.if the lord commands it and we can do it we should endeavor to do it.

 

[dadof10]

Water baptism without repentance and surrendering your life to Jesus does nothing but get you wet. Water baptism was intended as an outward show of an inward change. A way a person can show everyone that they have made a decision to live for Jesus.

Where does Scripture give this definition? How does your definition square with Peter's teaching that Baptism saves?

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. (1Peter (RSV) 3)

As it relates to today's denominations, is it any wonder why baptism has been so 'watered down'?

:biglol Good one...

 

[jasoncran]

this from the catholic side that merely sprinkles.

when baptism isnt even an original english but a greek word meaning to immerse.

one verse versus these that doesnt mention the need for baptism to be saved

acts 16:31
romans 10:9:10
john 3:16
and paul states that he baptised a few, so then i guess paul was picky.

that baptism peter speaks off maynot be the water type

we have the holy spirit baptism
water baptism
and that one rarely mentioned baptism for the repentance of sins
the later cant be the same as the water for if that was the case, then what of that eunich. and or the philipian jailor.
or the thousands that believed when peter preached in acts 2 and 3?

 

[francisdesales]

this from the catholic side that merely sprinkles.

Immersion is the ordinary means of being baptised. Sometimes, we sprinkle, sometimes we pour. Is this of consequence? The idea is to promote a spiritual washing.

when baptism isnt even an original english but a greek word meaning to immerse.

I fail to see the significance that 'baptism isn't even an original english word"... Neither is "bible"...

one verse versus these that doesnt mention the need for baptism to be saved

acts 16:31
romans 10:9:10
john 3:16

They all presume that baptism is the point where water and the Spirit enable someone to be born from above.

and paul states that he baptised a few, so then i guess paul was picky.

Maybe he was busy... Maybe he had other people do it. I find nowhere that Paul says it is inconsequential or meaningless (quite the opposite), so THAT cannot be the reason...

that baptism peter speaks off maynot be the water type

Right, that's why he talks about the flood. How could I have thought about water...

we have the holy spirit baptism
water baptism
and that one rarely mentioned baptism for the repentance of sins

the Holy Spirit baptism is THROUGH water - for the repentance of sins. Now, is God bound by this? No, but ordinarily, this is how God comes, in a community setting and through the ministry of His Church. Otherwise, we are left to wonder if it "really took" when we "think" we got "baptized in the Spirit" long time ago and falter in our walk.

the later cant be the same as the water for if that was the case, then what of that eunich. and or the philipian jailor.

I think in both cases, they requested to be baptized so as to receive the Spirit.

Regards

 

[stovebolts]

as an open statement then but not a means of transformation, the holy spirit and reading the word do this.

Why would you limit God's transforming work to reading the word while being guided by the Holy Spirit?

When I read your reply, I think of a person reading the Bible by themselves under guidance of the Holy Spirit. But I also see this view as being focused inward toward self. When I view baptism (water), I see the person being active in their faith as well as the community of Christ participating in the celebration and I see God present (Matthew 18:20). If that alone doesn't work toward's Gods' transforming work then I'm not sure where to go from here.

This is one reason why I see Baptism as a response to the Gospel. When we read, or when we hear the gospel the spirit prompts us toward God's transforming work. After all, when we read God's word, it's not just for our spiritual well being because if we can't put flesh to God's word, then God's word is empty and void of change. It's much like prayers. If we're not willing to step up and be the answer to the prayers of others, how can we expect our prayers to be answered? So we see, our faith is as much about doing, as it is about knowing what to do.

So we see, that when we are guided by the Holy Spirit, we do what the Spirit guides us to do. Much in the same manner as the eunich which paints a beautiful picture as one responding to the gospel.

 

[dadof10]

this from the catholic side that merely sprinkles.

when baptism isnt even an original english but a greek word meaning to immerse.

one verse versus these that doesnt mention the need for baptism to be saved

acts 16:31
romans 10:9:10
john 3:16
and paul states that he baptised a few, so then i guess paul was picky.

that baptism peter speaks off maynot be the water type

we have the holy spirit baptism
water baptism
and that one rarely mentioned baptism for the repentance of sins
the later cant be the same as the water for if that was the case, then what of that eunich. and or the philipian jailor.
or the thousands that believed when peter preached in acts 2 and 3?

Jason, Francis already dealt with all your specific points in detail. I would like to ask you the question I asked to DennyH. If you believe that water baptism (sprinkling, immersion, whatever) is merely a symbolic ritual "intended as an outward show of an inward change", simply show the verses that prove it.

It is clearly stated in 1Pt. 3 that water baptism saves. This verse is problematic for you because if water baptism saves, faith alone does not.

 

[jasoncran]

Why would you limit God's transforming work to reading the word while being guided by the Holy Spirit?

When I read your reply, I think of a person reading the Bible by themselves under guidance of the Holy Spirit. But I also see this view as being focused inward toward self. When I view baptism (water), I see the person being active in their faith as well as the community of Christ participating in the celebration and I see God present (Matthew 18:20). If that alone doesn't work toward's Gods' transforming work then I'm not sure where to go from here.

This is one reason why I see Baptism as a response to the Gospel. When we read, or when we hear the gospel the spirit prompts us toward God's transforming work. After all, when we read God's word, it's not just for our spiritual well being because if we can't put flesh to God's word, then God's word is empty and void of change. It's much like prayers. If we're not willing to step up and be the answer to the prayers of others, how can we expect our prayers to be answered? So we see, our faith is as much about doing, as it is about knowing what to do.

So we see, that when we are guided by the Holy Spirit, we do what the Spirit guides us to do. Much in the same manner as the eunich which paints a beautiful picture as one responding to the gospel.

then why does the church install such fear about that when there need not be such. i read an old post on this subject by gojubrian that is what he stated.

the holy spirit leads me to repentence, not the water. Did the water save? its an act , and outward show of what you should be doing already, living the life already spoken about, not the start.

paul was very selective on who he baptised, why? he had to be sure that person was actually a christian in the first place. if you doubt, read the books of corinthians.

i do believe all should be baptised but not done by fear that some in your church make it sound like.

i dont nor will ever teach the holy spirit baptism that way. its a blessing that we should want to recieve and when we are ready simply ask.

 

[Free]

Just because baptism may not be required for salvation does not mean that there is more significance to it than merely being a proclamation to the world of our faith.

Spiritual transformation takes a lifetime by many different means, so why not water baptism?

Romans 6:3-6, 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Paul certainly seems to think it is much more.

 

[jasoncran]

free, i was raised to see that as an explanation of what happened at the cross and we were buried with him. that is what salvation is!

that is already should be happening(unless the baptism is right after the initial start of the walk).

i dare not deny the meaning to that. but unless some here can showotherwise to me that the word doensnt by itself with power given to it by the holy spirit as he cleanses us with the word. or some say the bible does that by itself. either way.

i know of no one who didnt read the bible and was baptised and all of sudden miraclously knew the entire bible and walked cirmcumspectly.

the holy spirit teaches us through the word, and other means.

 

[stovebolts]

then why does the church install such fear about that when there need not be such. i read an old post on this subject by gojubrian that is what he stated.

the holy spirit leads me to repentence, not the water. Did the water save? its an act , and outward show of what you should be doing already, living the life already spoken about, not the start.

paul was very selective on who he baptised, why? he had to be sure that person was actually a christian in the first place. if you doubt, read the books of corinthians.

i do believe all should be baptised but not done by fear that some in your church make it sound like.

i dont nor will ever teach the holy spirit baptism that way. its a blessing that we should want to recieve and when we are ready simply ask.

Hi Jason,
First off, please know that when you say "your church", you're also talking about the church you yourself belong to. This idea that "Im a pentecostal" and "Your a baptist" and even "Your a Lutheren" etc. is exactly what Paul was speaking about in 1st Corinthians when he first makes mention of baptism by way of example. Simply put, we are all part of the Church Jesus established. Yes, we have our differences, but we are allowed our differences in many different areas but we are still brothers and sisters in Christ. Also, read 1st Corinthians and Paul tells us why he didn't baptise. 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Each of us has a spiritual gift and together, we make up the visible Body of Christ.

Sorry for the bold. When I copied 1 Cor 17, it bolded the below and I can't unbold it...
As far as teaching baptism out of fear, we preach baptism as a response to the gospel. To teach baptism as a line between heaven and hell would be to teach baptism in fear and is a rude distortion of the the function baptism serves. I know that there are members in the various churches of Christ who teach baptism like this and it's a sad state of affairs. But also please know this, much of that line of thinking was derived from the great logical debates of the 50's and in all fairness Jason, I'm not going to pick up a snake just because the bible says we can and if you or somebody else says I don't have the holy spirit because I won't play with a poisonous snake, well then you're starting to see the great Tennessee and other bible belt debates that shaped the various denominations that pushed brothers and sisters in Christ further apart. Simply put though, we believe that if one is properly told the story of Christ and the good news of Jesus, baptism is a natural response and not that of church regulation as it pertains to sect membership etc. From a biblical perspective, this would be normative.


I'd like to end with this. When our view of scripture is shaped by rejection of others interpretations or doctrines, then we're forced to view scripture in a manner that seperates us further by having to use a distored lens ourselves on the plain word of God. Baptism is to unite Christians. As an outward showing of baptism, one has to consider that baptism unites us to the visible Body of Christ, the Church because Christianity can't be lived alone, it has to be lived within community for the purpose of spreading light to the rest of humanity.

Grace and Peace.

 

[jasoncran]

i never said that you werent part of the church as a whole. Lord. no.

but since we have differentianting points on interpretation on acts 2 and such like. How else shall I relate.

baptists say that gifts are done.pentacostals dont

most of these chruches accept the others water baptismal acts. The only time i had to provide evidence is for when i was engaged to a catholic.

and i not a member of any church, even though once i did that but that church isnt around anymore.I wont officially join any church these days. Pointless. I wont be baptised by my pastor or the elders with the church of god denomation. No need did that 12 yrs ago unless the holy spirit leads me to.


lol, talk about missunderstanding.

when you mentioned the church of christ i assumed you mean the one that worships neither with music and states that water bapitism is needed for heaven.

 

[stovebolts]

i never said that you werent part of the church as a whole. Lord. no.

Didn't take it as you were ;) Was just reminding you that we're all in this together.. one big happy family in Christ Jesus

baptists say that gifts are done.pentacostals dont

There are people within my own congregation that believe gifts are done, and there are those who believe otherwise. But we are still united in Christ and somehow we can still call each other brother, enjoy conversations around the potluck, and even enjoy a meal at our homes with some excellent conversation.

most of these chruches accept the others water baptismal acts. The only time i had to provide evidence is for when i was engaged to a catholic.

There are Elderships within some churches of Christ who will not accept a baptism outside the churches of Christ. We're not one of them because we believe there is only one baptism and only one Church.

when you mentioned the church of christ i assumed you mean the one that worships neither with music and states that water bapitism is needed for heaven.

We worship without musical instruments because we believe our voices are the best instruments we have to lift up to God in worship. We worship Capella by choice, not by mandate. You well never hear a sermon from our pulpit damning anyone who integrates instruments within their worship. Our director of education believes heavily in non-instrumental music while I don't and we've had detailed conversations about it. Yet, he asked me to teach the 3rd and 4th graders and I also teach the adult class. So you see, there are bigger things to look at and just because we don't agree on something, doesn't mean we're enemies. (This same man gave a sermon on how gifts are still active today.)

As far as baptism, you've heard our perspective in this thread. Simply put, Baptism is not a legal line in the sand that defines heaven and hell. No, it's much more than that. Simply put, Baptism is a response to the gospel, and that's our starting point.

What muddles the conversation Jason, is that it sounds like you've been beaten over the head by a conservative church of Christ member and chances are you've either misunderstood them, or you ran into a zealous conservative who's rubbed you the wrong way. What you need to know Jason, is that the view on baptism that I hold is mine and not every member within the churches of Christ will agree with me. Heck, you're not even in the church of Christ and you don't agree with me. Mike's a Lutheran and he doesn't agree with me on who's to be baptized. Strangelove doesn't go to church, much like yourself and he doesn't agree with me. So you see, this isn't a church of Christ matter. It's a Church of Christ matter.

Grace and peace.

 

[jasoncran]

ah i attend church jeff. its called twentieth avenue church of God, i dont believe in memberships. that's all.

i know the politics and how church is it run, and sometimes the business side is needed, but that gets ugly. i worked for sbc church called vero beach baptist church. its has about 1000 members. i was a janitor there.


all the post towards shad and mm for attending a local body, and you say that i dont attend a local body.i am non denomational in tendencies. meaning that i can see the points each side has and try to see the validity to it.

i have attended mass,locally, and in north carolina, i have attended the calvary chapels, the baptists(freewill and southern), various pentacostals, and was baptised at a non denomational pentacostal church in a pool on the pastors property. and also the christian and missionary alliance.

i'm very much interfaith. dont assume that i'm one of those home church types. i am not.

i may not be the most active member but i try to make it when i can. some days i have to rest as i have no days off. wonderfull paper route.

does this site allow for uploads of dvd-rw. my pastor has some sermons that i would like to share.