Water baptism a requirement for church membership?

[Nathan]

Nate,
I get the feeling I'm in good company with you. Any differences we would have would be of little significance I'm sure.

Jeff

The feeling is quite mutual Jeff. I hope we can get a chance to sit down some time. I would like to know more of the beliefs of the Church of Christ.

 

[Nathan]

This is what I thought about babtism. I agree with this.

Are we in a minority here Nate?

I've never talked about this with anyone before.

I've never been to church. I read the NT and it never even crossed my mind that I needed a water babtism/. Is that unusual? Am I a weirdo Christian? Or not a Christian at all??? Stove?

Strange, I hear you man. I know exactly what you are going through. This was my first test I went through when I became a believer. I was baptized(yes this is the right spelling..lol) right after I confessed my faith publicly. Of course, I go to a 'baptist' church, so it was not much of an option anyways. lol. No, they would not have made me do it, but just as the disciples followed their teacher, I did mine also.

What happened afterwards is that I ran into a wonderful man, full of faith it seemed(and I am sure he was), and he was absolutely convinced that one had to be baptized "in Jesus name". He told me that because I was baptized in the "Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" I had not been 'correctly' baptized. I struggled with that for a good year.

Then I thought I had it settled, and I ran into another person that brought up the issue again. I forget the exact circumstances, and it was not the exact issue I dealt with the other guy, but it was more to do with the Spirit. All the old emotions came back like a tidal wave. Blew me over. I found myself really searching at that point.

I THANK GOD!!!! for putting me through that test. I cannot tell you how much I wept over the issue, searched and searched, cried out for understanding, and when I had come to the end of my rope, I looked up and He spoke to me through the Word. It was amazing. What peace I found. It was the first time I had truly lived out Matthew 7:7-11;

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

So...Strange...just seek Him about this. When I was baptized did I realize or contemplate what we are talking about here? No. Did I associate myself any closer to Christ? No. Have I been baptized by water again since then? No. Am I sure, really sure, that the Holy Spirit lives in me? ABSOLUTELY!!!

I see Him working in my life all the time. In fact, I am a living witness to Titus 2:11-14;

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works."

He trains me. I am wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked without Him. But He gives me Life, life abundantly, through His Spirit in my spirit.

So. Strange. Grow. No we are not a minority. You are not a minority, unless you count it a minority to truly believe in Christ. The fact that you have never thought about it is not your fault. Seriously, it is just because someone has not taught you what it is all about. If you can, I would STRONGLY suggest that you find a fellowship that teaches the truth of God's Word.

It is not good for you to be alone. You need to have SOME people that you can get 'real' with. And it is hard to do so if you are not physically with them. Not impossible, do not think that. The more I understand the more I believe that our flesh is extremely deceitful, and it is nice to have an arena to exercise the spirit and heart without the flesh interfering. But there is a reason Jesus took on flesh, and if He walked with people, are we above our Master?

Above all let things like this drive you to the feet of Him who WILL give you abundantly more than you can ever even imagine. It is amazing when you sincerely seek Him for His Wisdom. He pours it out on you ten fold. He will never turn down the humble and pure in heart.

 

[Nathan]

I'm not one to judge you in that manner Strangelove. But what I do know is that Jesus commanded us to baptize and make disciples and in the writing of the NT, it was normative that those entering into the church were baptized (water).

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

So the question isn't a matter of "Do I need to do this", but rather, "Will I follow Jesus into the baptismal waters". You see, Jesus went into the baptismal waters so if we call ourselves followers of Christ, hence the word Christain, what would cause one not to follow Jesus into the water?

Strangelove,
Will you follow Jesus into the Baptismal waters?

Even though Jeff and I may not agree on the exact translation of the word, we are in unity on the need for it. Whether it is Spiritual Baptism or physical baptism. While it may not give you the heeby jeebies, water baptism is a BEAUTIFUL picture of the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of our Saviour and Master.

He indeed is our Saviour AND Master. If we truly consider Him as such, and all true followers must, then it is only simple submission to His leading to be baptized in water.

 

[Strangelove]

I'm not one to judge you in that manner Strangelove. But what I do know is that Jesus commanded us to baptize and make disciples and in the writing of the NT, it was normative that those entering into the church were baptized (water).

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

So the question isn't a matter of "Do I need to do this", but rather, "Will I follow Jesus into the baptismal waters". You see, Jesus went into the baptismal waters so if we call ourselves followers of Christ, hence the word Christain, what would cause one not to follow Jesus into the water?

Strangelove,
Will you follow Jesus into the Baptismal waters?

No I won't because we are not baptized by water we are baptized by the Holy Spirit. The Word of God is clear on that front to my entire satisfaction.

Again I ask you what is your interpretation of this verse:::

11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

 

[Strangelove]

I don't find the word babtism in the dictionary...

It's spelled baptism.

Oh ok......my mistake

tell me Strangelove, are you against water baptism?

Not at all. I'm totally indifferent to it. I would never say to anyone that the water part is needed for their salvation. As the Word of God is clear that we are baptized in the Holy Spirit not water.

 

[Strangelove]

So...Strange...just seek Him about this. When I was baptized did I realize or contemplate what we are talking about here? No. Did I associate myself any closer to Christ? No. Have I been baptized by water again since then? No. Am I sure, really sure, that the Holy Spirit lives in me?
ABSOLUTELY!!!

I seeked Him buddy. Fear not. The Holy Spirit moves in me I'm sure of it too.

So. Strange. Grow. No we are not a minority. You are not a minority, unless you count it a minority to truly believe in Christ. The fact that you have never thought about it is not your fault. Seriously, it is just because someone has not taught you what it is all about. If you can, I would STRONGLY suggest that you find a fellowship that teaches the truth of God's Word.

Thats what I'm doing here. I've never been to church ever in my life. The Holy Spirit moved in me to join this forum for fellowship. To learn (after discernment) from others and MAYBE to teach also. Unless you can recommend a fellowship that teaches the truth of God's Word and where I would find such a thing if it exists?

It is not good for you to be alone. You need to have SOME people that you can get 'real' with. And it is hard to do so if you are not physically with them. Not impossible, do not think that. The more I understand the more I believe that our flesh is extremely deceitful, and it is nice to have an arena to exercise the spirit and heart without the flesh interfering. But there is a reason Jesus took on flesh, and if He walked with people, are we above our Master?

Oh boy. I get this on every single forum that I've been on. Cyberfellowship isn't REAL. Its all just a DREAM!! I'm not really typing these words and your not listening to me and replying. Please dont tell me I need to go to church. I'm so sick of "churched" people telling me that. I have no need nor desire to go and meet up with people face to face and be confronted with their mob rule apostacy, thanks anyway.

Lets get one thing straight ok? Jesus knew everything from the beginning to the end. He knew about the internet. He knew it would be a way for Christians to stay in the wilderness and yet still have contact with the Body of Christ worldwide. He knew it would be a way to communicate with eachother without being carried away in eachothers nonsense and false teachings come the great falling away which is happening RIGHT NOW!

Above all let things like this drive you to the feet of Him who WILL give you abundantly more than you can ever even imagine. It is amazing when you sincerely seek Him for His Wisdom. He pours it out on you ten fold. He will never turn down the humble and pure in heart.

Ya......thanks for that Nate.

 

[Nathan]

Thats what I'm doing here. I've never been to church ever in my life. The Holy Spirit moved in me to join this forum for fellowship. To learn (after discernment) from others and MAYBE to teach also. Unless you can recommend a fellowship that teaches the truth of God's Word and where I would find such a thing if it exists?

Oh boy. I get this on every single forum that I've been on. Cyberfellowship isn't REAL. Its all just a DREAM!! I'm not really typing these words and your not listening to me and replying. Please dont tell me I need to go to church. I'm so sick of "churched" people telling me that. I have no need nor desire to go and meet up with people face to face and be confronted with their mob rule apostacy, thanks anyway.

Lets get one thing straight ok? Jesus knew everything from the beginning to the end. He knew about the internet. He knew it would be a way for Christians to stay in the wilderness and yet still have contact with the Body of Christ worldwide. He knew it would be a way to communicate with eachother without being carried away in eachothers nonsense and false teachings come the great falling away which is happening RIGHT NOW!

Sorry Strange. Seems like that is a touchy subject. Please do not associate me with the other mobsters that do go to buildings to gather together. You have no idea where I have come from and went through. When I said what I did, I meant it from my heart. It is not something that comes off flippantly. Its not just a standard thing I say to all people.

I cannot tell you how many times I have pleaded with the Lord to let me stay away from places of physical gatherings. Half the time you walk into a building you feel like you walking into a strip club. I am not sure if it is just the culture, but I would feel better if girls would wear more clothes to church and not let things pop out.

God made us as humans. Soul, mind, and body. We ARE a soul, have a mind, and a body. One day we will put off this body, BUT we will get a new one. So there is something to be said about physical touch, sight, sound, smell, and taste. It is good to be physically together with people.

BUT, if you cannot find a place that teaches truth...then do not go just anywhere. Stay at home and study. Learn at His feet. The Bible is clear that we need no man to teach us about Him. Some cannot seem to get out of the flesh to do this however. And ONLY when you are not walking in the flesh will you not be subject to its falsehoods.

Cyber fellowship is real. I never meant to make it otherwise. But we cannot be too confident and not think that our adversary cannot seem as one of us to lure us away. Does meeting together in person keep that from happening? No. But thats the point. Meeting together is just simply doing what God created us to do. Be physical. He created us to be physical, as well as spiritual.

I find it very interesting, and would LOVE to hear your story sometime about your conversion. I think that it is a wonderful thing that He did in brining you to this forum. I do not think His desire is for us to wonder around in the wilderness though. Oh...I am not suggesting that we can just cross over to the promise land when we want... But we who have the Hope in us DO indeed enter His rest. And one day we will in totality.

One thing about baptism and I will lay it to rest. Water baptism is definitely something that should not just be blotted out of the mind as insignificant. I am not going to try and tell you that you are wrong for not having thought about it before, but maybe...just maybe...He is speaking to you now. Only you can judge that for yourself.

1Pe 3:8-22 Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing. For "Whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit; let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil. "Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect ,having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.


That word "appeal" is eperōtēma -
1) an enquiry, a question
2) a demand
3) earnestly seeking
a) craving, an intense desire

So, in other words, Peter(the one who denied Christ) says very specifically that baptism in water is an very earnest seeking, a great craving for, an intense desire of, a longing to God....for Him to give you a good conscience. Peter equates it to a simple way of coming to God and asking Him to fill you with understanding about yourself.

When you come to Him, through simple obedience of baptism in water, you are engaging you WHOLE self into the process. Not just your heart and spirit, but your flesh also. Your whole self, the being God created you to be, is under submission to God and desires earnestly for Him to create in you a clear mind. We must have that clear mind. And I am not saying you do not have it, please do not misunderstand me. But I can tell you for a fact, that now, knowing what you know, you can by FAITH grab a hold of a solid promise that if you are baptized in water, God will give you a complete and totally pure conscience toward Him. In all seriousness, what is there to loose out on by not doing it?

 

[Strangelove]

I find it very interesting, and would LOVE to hear your story sometime about your conversion.

I read the Gospels and believed. Thats it. Its too simple for some.

For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Where does this come from? I cant find it anywhere in my Bible////

So, in other words, Peter(the one who denied Christ) says very specifically that baptism in water is an very earnest seeking, a great craving for, an intense desire of, a longing to God....for Him to give you a good conscience. Peter equates it to a simple way of coming to God and asking Him to fill you with understanding about yourself.

He doesnt say that at all. One sentence ends with the word "water" PERIOD and the next starts with the word "baptism".

When you come to Him, through simple obedience of baptism in water, you are engaging you WHOLE self into the process. Not just your heart and spirit, but your flesh also. Your whole self, the being God created you to be, is under submission to God and desires earnestly for Him to create in you a clear mind. We must have that clear mind. And I am not saying you do not have it, please do not misunderstand me. But I can tell you for a fact, that now, knowing what you know, you can by FAITH grab a hold of a solid promise that if you are baptized in water, God will give you a complete and totally pure conscience toward Him. In all seriousness, what is there to loose out on by not doing it?

This is works based tomfoolery and its nonsense. You've just made this up. Sorry.

I engaged my whole self to God and He gave me a complete and totally pure conscience toward Him when I read the Gospels and believed in his Son Jesus Christ. It's called Faith!

Sorry Nate but I kinda respected you before from reading your posts but on this thread you are pure confusion. First you say the waters not necessary now you say it is.

Are you just trying to please both sides?

 

[Strangelove]

We are saved by God's grace, not baptism. Baptism is merely a public declaration of having believed Christ, repented and of having a desire to serve Him.

Some argue that particular Scriptures show a requirement to be baptized as part of salvation, using Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. and also Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

All Scriptures must be viewed when considering particular doctrine.

John baptized in water and it was referred to as him preaching the baptism of repentance, before Christ began His ministry *16a (Mark 1:4, 8; John 3:36, 4:1-2 ) Jesus baptized no one with water.

Baptism was used after initial belief of Jesus Christ, which also involves having received the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:47 declares that those who have believed have already received the Holy Spirit before the physical act of baptism. In other words it was a public declaration and confirmed the intent to live for Christ.​

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.​

There is record of many believing, repenting and then taking the step of being baptized. Notice that baptism is not often mentioned after a certain point of time. ​

*17aActs 16:14-15 *17dActs 22:16 *17bActs 18:8 *17eActs 8:36-38 *17cActs 8:12-13 *17fActs 16:30-33​

The Jews required a sign. Baptism was a sign at that time in order to understand that both Jew and Gentile were of the same Body and had the same Spirit when they believed Jesus Christ. There is only one baptism. ​

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.​

To require baptism as part of salvation is to add to God's grace and adds a need of a work. That defies the Scriptures in many ways.​

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast....13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in him, and he in God. ​

*17John 3:14-18 *241 Peter 3:18-22 *18Romans 10:9-11 *251 Corinthians 12:13 *19Romans 6:1-11 *26Galatians 3:25-27 *20Ephesians 4:4-6 *27John 20:30-31 *21Colossians 2:10-15 *28Acts 8:35-37 *22Romans 3:21-26 *29Acts 16:30-32 *23Romans 4:23-25 *301 John 3:20-24

​

To require baptism as equal to or a part of salvation, leaves many who have believed Christ, repented and are serving Him, without any recourse, but to believe they are not saved. And That also goes against far too many Scriptures.

SeekGod.ca Frequently Asked Questions​

 

[Nathan]

Where does this come from? I cant find it anywhere in my Bible////

He doesnt say that at all. One sentence ends with the word "water" PERIOD and the next starts with the word "baptism".

This is works based tomfoolery and its nonsense. You've just made this up. Sorry.

I engaged my whole self to God and He gave me a complete and totally pure conscience toward Him when I read the Gospels and believed in his Son Jesus Christ. It's called Faith!

Sorry Nate but I kinda respected you before from reading your posts but on this thread you are pure confusion. First you say the waters not necessary now you say it is.

Are you just trying to please both sides?

Strange I am sorry you feel this way. I am deeply saddened. The passage is a direct quote from 1Peter 3:8-22. Taken entirely in context. ESV.

The sentence does end in a period. But the next sentence relates back to the previous one with the phrase, "which corresponds to this" referring back to the waters of the flood. They are directly related, and cannot be separated in context.

This is not works based, I am saddened again that you would think I am of that crowd. I never said you did not have a clear conscience. I am simply stating what Peter is teaching us. Again, I am sorry that I have lost your respect, I try my best to stay out of the way and point people to Christ Himself. You should always study things for yourself. Never take my word for it. But it is extremely clear what Peter is saying here. There is no way to misunderstand it unless you throw this passage out of the Bible, or you take it completely out of context.

I am not trying to please both sides. I am simply expounding on Peters words. Water baptism is NOT necessary for SALVATION. Water baptism is NOT necessary for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You will NEVER hear me state otherwise. But I have NEVER said it is not simple obedience to do it. It is obedience to follow AFTER what Christ did Himself. Christ is not talking specifically about water baptism in Matthew 28. But throughout the book of acts we have clear examples of believers partaking in water baptism.

I am not sure why it upsets you like it does. I am speaking the truth in Christ, the Spirit bears witness to me. Water baptism is a walk of obedience. Not nessary for Salvation, but nessary for complete obedience. If some want to say that they cannot walk in complete obedience anyways, whether or not water baptism is done, so whats the use...so be it. I will not judge anothers obedience.

I am simply trying to tell you, Strange, that I struggled with the idea of water baptism for two solid years. And when it came down to it I found peace in the words written down by the first followers of Christ. I did not look to anyone to give me answers for it, peace only came when I laid all ideas aside and sought after the Truth. If you have done it, and are walking in Faith given to you by God, then I will not try to convince you otherwise.

But the Bible teaches it. And just as Paul would always warn others that while ALL things are lawful, not all things are helpful. And while some might say they have faith, if they are walking contrary to the basic teachings of Christ, they might have faith, but its not from God.

Do not take this the wrong way. But let me use an example. Paul ran up against some who were committing sexual immorality. They said, "I have faith, its being done in faith, therefore it is not a sin because everything not done in faith is sin, but everything done in faith is not sin". Paul made it very clear that no one practicing sexual immorality would inherit eternal life. Therefore, although they were convinced in themselves it was faith, it was not faith from God.

I hope this all makes sense. I have not been double talking here at all. I hold to that which I have been taught from Him and none other.

 

[stovebolts]

The feeling is quite mutual Jeff. I hope we can get a chance to sit down some time. I would like to know more of the beliefs of the Church of Christ.

Nate,
Great getting to know you. If you're even in Mi. I'll buy the coffee
As far as getting to know more about the church of Christ, notice how church is lowercase :yes. Each church is autonomous and governed by Elders who oversee deacons.
If you want to know more about the churches of Christ and it's history from an insider, you might want to check out this book.
http://johnmarkhicks.faithsite.com/content.asp?CID=53318

 

[stovebolts]

I read the Gospels and believed. Thats it. Its too simple for some.

Hi Strangelove,
It's more than just believing Strangelove, it's about doing because when we believe, and we do, then we are able to experience. What is believing good for if we can't experience the intended result?

In other words, what good does it do to wish someone well who is struggling, when you're unwilling to help?

I understand the idea that some do make the act, or rite of baptism into a legal form of work, but as Francis stated earlier, people view it as a work because they don't understand that this whole Christian thingy is about not only believing in Jesus, but actually following Jesus and to follow, is to do and it's not to do because we're trying to earn favor, but rather we do because we're in relationship with Christ.

So what is it like to be immersed in Christ? What is it like to follow "The Way"? Jesus commands us to baptize (water), yet if one isn't willing to be baptized, how will they baptize others?

You stated earlier that you're a 'new' Christian. I applaud you in that regard. But your journey has just begun. But know this, Jesus will ask you to do much more than be baptized in water, so if you're unwilling to follow a simple command, how much less then will you be willing to love your neighbor as yourslef?

Grace and peace.

 

[Strangelove]

I am not trying to please both sides. I am simply expounding on Peters words. Water baptism is NOT necessary for SALVATION. Water baptism is NOT necessary for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You will NEVER hear me state otherwise. But I have NEVER said it is not simple obedience to do it. It is obedience to follow AFTER what Christ did Himself. Christ is not talking specifically about water baptism in Matthew 28. But throughout the book of acts we have clear examples of believers partaking in water baptism.

Ok Nate. This is the only point I'm bothered about. New Christians need to know this in no uncertain terms. Water baptism is NOT necessary for SALVATION. Water baptism is NOT necessary for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If you wanna say that to do the ritual of water baptism is pleasing to God and obedient then thats fine, I got no problems with that. It's a personal choice. You feel it makes a difference. Fine. Theres no harm in it as far as I can see. I may even decide to do it in the shower if I get the urge! ;). Self shower baptism? Whats the procedure?

The only problem I see with it is the same as the "sinners prayer" and public stage salvation "events".

What happens when potential Christians walk into church and they are given a water baptism? Are there a percentage who will walk away thinking that they are now saved and are proper Christians? I think the answer is yes and thats why we need to be of one mind in Christ on this thread and say unequivically that water baptism plays NO part in salvation. YOU HAVE TO READ THE GOSPELS AND DEVELOP FAITH. TRUE FAITH IN THE SON OF GOD.

1) Read the Gospels for Faith.
2) Confess Jesus as the Son of God.
3) Repentance.
4) Baptism in the Holy Spirit will occur by the Grace of God.
5) Continue to walk with Christ following His commandments of Love.

Thats where I'm going with this Nate. We need to keep it simple.

Hope you understand.


Doc.

 

[Nathan]

Nate,
Great getting to know you. If you're even in Mi. I'll buy the coffee
As far as getting to know more about the church of Christ, notice how church is lowercase :yes. Each church is autonomous and governed by Elders who oversee deacons.
If you want to know more about the churches of Christ and it's history from an insider, you might want to check out this book.
http://johnmarkhicks.faithsite.com/content.asp?CID=53318

Hey...I like to hunt...so...lol. Yes I was curious about the church part of church of Christ. You answered that question for me.;)

I had a great time of fellowship with a guy one day only to find out later from someone else that he attended and was active in a church of Christ. We cannot help it, but it is sad because most people that grow up in denominations are biased toward other denominations. I learned quite a few years ago that God does not care about denominations. And I have found it fascinating to "chat" with people about their beliefs.

I sometimes wonder what it would be like to sit down with John, or Peter, or James, or any of the original twelve disciples for that matter. How cool would that be!!!!!

Thanks for the link

 

[Nathan]

Ok Nate. This is the only point I'm bothered about. New Christians need to know this in no uncertain terms. Water baptism is NOT necessary for SALVATION. Water baptism is NOT necessary for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If you wanna say that to do the ritual of water baptism is pleasing to God and obedient then thats fine, I got no problems with that. It's a personal choice. You feel it makes a difference. Fine. Theres no harm in it as far as I can see. I may even decide to do it in the shower if I get the urge! ;). Self shower baptism? Whats the procedure?

The only problem I see with it is the same as the "sinners prayer" and public stage salvation "events".

What happens when potential Christians walk into church and they are given a water baptism? Are there a percentage who will walk away thinking that they are now saved and are proper Christians? I think the answer is yes and thats why we need to be of one mind in Christ on this thread and say unequivically that water baptism plays NO part in salvation. YOU HAVE TO READ THE GOSPELS AND DEVELOP FAITH. TRUE FAITH IN THE SON OF GOD.
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Doc. I understand you completely. Trust me on that please. I do.

Guess what though. I do not think that a person has to read the Bible at all to be saved...or to develop faith. Sound strange?

Faith comes from hearing. Ok...so what about those who cannot hear? Ummm...does that pose a problem? Nahh. People "hear" and "see" when God opens their ears and eyes. There are a lot of theologians and teachers walking around with blinded eyes and ears that cannot hear, even though they can be very persuasive with their speeches.

We do indeed put too much emphasis on the physical in our rituals. What Jeff and I are trying to do is take it to the spiritual. But we cannot completely separate it from the physical in its outer expression. Procedure for self-baptism? Well, from the beginning it is never done by self. I know you were just playing around. But it is historically done by people who would lead others into the relationship with Christ.

It has great meaning to the ones doing the baptism also. Did you know that? We have lost that aspect also in our traditions. If I were to ever water baptize a person, to me it would be a sign to them of my commitment to pass down all the teachings I have been taught. It would be my commitment to them to "immerse" them into the Godhead. It has also always served as a public profession to others around. But just like in the case of the Ethiopian and Phillip, it was mainly just between them two and Christ.

Lol. and here in lies the problem with you huh? You were not "led" by anyone other than the Spirit Himself. Thats cool. I have to admit that you are the first person I have ran across that was led to believe by simply picking up the Bible and reading. And I believe it. So I am not sure what to say other than if a time ever presents itself to be water baptized by someone "jump in". lol.

But do not let it be forced upon you, or done out of anything but a desire to obey. And I know, I know, at this moment in time you do not feel like it is necessarily "obedience". Just keep this all in mind if the time ever comes.

 

[Strangelove]

Hi Strangelove,
It's more than just believing Strangelove, it's about doing because when we believe, and we do, then we are able to experience. What is believing good for if we can't experience the intended result? (I feel the Holy Spirit working in me thats the intended result)

In other words, what good does it do to wish someone well who is struggling, when you're unwilling to help? (?)

I understand the idea that some do make the act, or rite of baptism into a legal form of work, (horrible danger you admit) but as Francis stated earlier, people view it as a work because they don't understand that this whole Christian thingy is about not only believing in Jesus, but actually following Jesus and to follow, is to do and it's not to do because we're trying to earn favor, but rather we do because we're in relationship with Christ. (Yeah...Do His 2 commandments. Thats it)

So what is it like to be immersed in Christ? What is it like to follow "The Way"? (To become a new creature by baptism in the Holy Spirit) Jesus commands us to baptize (water), yet if one isn't willing to be baptized, how will they baptize others? (It's not our job to baptize others is it? Thats the Holy Spirit that does that.)

You stated earlier that you're a 'new' Christian. I applaud you in that regard. But your journey has just begun. But know this, Jesus will ask you to do much more than be baptized in water (He didnt even ask that) , so if you're unwilling to follow a simple command, how much less then will you be willing to love your neighbor as yourslef?

Grace and peace.

Lolz. Is it still a command if you have to put it in brackets??

"Jesus commands us to baptize (water)" - um...I dont think so.

I'm perfectly willing to love my neighbour and to love God. Those are the real commandments of Christ.

Why are you adding more?

Why wont you tell me what your interpretation is of this verse?

11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

 

[Strangelove]

Lol. and here in lies the problem with you huh? You were not "led" by anyone other than the Spirit Himself. Thats cool. I have to admit that you are the first person I have ran across that was led to believe by simply picking up the Bible and reading. And I believe it. So I am not sure what to say other than if a time ever presents itself to be water baptized by someone "jump in". lol.

Yes Nate I'm a wacky new kind of Christian. I like to call myself a "Desert Island Christian". My essential doctrines are wholly given to me by the Word of God and never influenced by man. I've never even been NEAR a church. I'm starting to see that as a huge advantage. New Testament Brother. Thats it. If you want to know what the NT teaches a moderately intelligent modern English middle aged male with no preconcieved ideas then just ask. You might find me an interesting and valuable resource.

When I started fellowshipping on forums and noticed all the pre-trib rapture stuff (which never even crossed my mind) I didnt stop laughing for days until I realised how many Christians were wrapped up in it.

When I see people trying to teach Hebrew roots and OT law keeping it DIRECTLY contradicts what I read in the Bible and I fight it VEHEMENTLY.

And its the same on this thread. When I see someone who says that water baptism is essential then I just have to speak up and tell it like it is. I get a red flag when I see stuff like that. It's just confusion for Christians who are weak and come here for guidance.

Regards.


Doc.

 

[jasoncran]

Can you show me a passage in the NT where somebody has received the Holy Spirit and baptism isn't mentioned?

I'm asking you this so that we can gain a healthy perspective of what baptism accomplishes.

jeff, i being a pentacostal, and recieved the holy ghost yrs before my water baptism.

one must be saved in the first place to recieve a real baptistism by immersion.
second, one must alse be saved to recieve the baptism of the holy spirit.

lets clarify this.

is water baptism conditonal for salvation in your view.

it isnt for me though its a good idea.

and i dont see the baptism of the h.s. the same as you. one recieves the holy spirit upon salvation. but not the baptism(he indwells but , not flow through) the baptism is the allowing of the the h,s, to move through you.

none of the apostles were baptised save paul i think.

interesting. or at least they werent mentioned.

 

[jasoncran]

jeff show me where the apostles themselves were baptised. Hard to make a command when you dont follow it.

 

[Free]

Baptism is merely a public declaration of having believed Christ, repented and of having a desire to serve Him.

I believe that Paul makes it clear there is more to it than that. Why not just stand up in front of people and declare the same with one's mouth?

To require baptism as part of salvation is to add to God's grace and adds a need of a work.

Not necessarily.