Water baptism a requirement for church membership?

[jasoncran]

baptisim is the public declaration of the christian who has repented. not a work at all just a statement that you died with jesus on the cross.

i will have to look at the statements on baptism by paul, but i do find something out of the oridinary with paul baptising selectively like he states to the corithians.

if they are saints and he lead them to the lord then why didnt he baptize them in the lord.

 

[francisdesales]

baptisim is the public declaration of the christian who has repented. not a work at all just a statement that you died with jesus on the cross.

Isn't that how one becomes saved - to die with Jesus??? If we die with Christ during baptism, it stands to reason that we are saved through baptism, as Peter wrote...

i will have to look at the statements on baptism by paul, but i do find something out of the oridinary with paul baptising selectively like he states to the corithians.

Where does Paul say he baptized "selectively"? He only says he baptized a few people, not that he selected some for baptism and others he decided not to baptize. It is quite likely that deacons and such did those ceremonies while Paul concentrated on things such as preaching.

Regards

 

[stovebolts]

jeff show me where the apostles themselves were baptised. Hard to make a command when you dont follow it.

John 3:26-28 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

Acts 9:18 Immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 9:19 and after taking some food, his strength returned.

 

[Strangelove]

I'm quite inclined to do a water baptism after thinking about it for a while.

Let's say I dont have any churches where I live.

Can me and my boy go down to the beach and do full immersion in the sea?

Is there a particular prayer?

Thanks

Doc.

 

[stovebolts]

jeff, i being a pentacostal, and recieved the holy ghost yrs before my water baptism..

Why not just be a Christian? As far as recieving the H.S. before your 'water' baptism, I would never deny that.

one must be saved in the first place to recieve a real baptistism by immersion.
second, one must alse be saved to recieve the baptism of the holy spirit..

Jason, with all due respect, do you know what justification is per scripture? Justification, sanctification and salvation, though intertwined, serve different funtions. When we talk of salvation in the sence of when we die, we're essentially talking about being justified. Thus, one is 'saved' from the fires of eternal hell.
But there is another salvation that has gotten swept under the rug, and that salvation has to do with here, now. And in those terms, "Baptism now saves us".

lets clarify this.

is water baptism conditonal for salvation in your view..

Conditional? As in a line in the sand that demarcates ones eternal salvation? If pushed into a corner, I'd say no. However, I believe that those who push that argument don't really know, or understand the significance Baptism plays in their salvation.

it isnt for me though its a good idea.

and i dont see the baptism of the h.s. the same as you. one recieves the holy spirit upon salvation. but not the baptism(he indwells but , not flow through) the baptism is the allowing of the the h,s, to move through you..

Can you show me where in scripture you came to this idea?

none of the apostles were baptised save paul i think.

interesting. or at least they werent mentioned.

Please see above post.

Thanks Jason.

 

[stovebolts]

Strangelove,
Help me understand... You're a 'new" Christian who vehemently opposes water baptism having anything to do with your salvation.

Why are you now considering baptism?

Let's say I dont have any churches where I live.

PM me your address, or at least a city and I'll point you in the right direction.

 

[Strangelove]

Strangelove,
Help me understand... You're a 'new" Christian who vehemently opposes water baptism having anything to do with your salvation.

Why are you now considering baptism?

um.......I think it would be a nice thing to do for me and my young son. I've got no problems with it being an outward show of love for Jesus........dunno really..it's not for salvation obviously...just cos I think it would be a good bonding exercise between me and my son and Jesus...is that ok?

PM me your address, or at least a city and I'll point you in the right direction.

I live in a third world country in the middle of nowhere. Trust me I aint goin to no church around here. There arn't any. But I have a beach with plenty of water.

Just wondering if theres a special prayer thats all. If you wanna help me out on that then thanks in advance.

 

[stovebolts]

Odd... and I thought you were in the contiguous USA somewhere within central time zone. What's the name of the country you're in again?...

 

[jasoncran]

on the reciept of the indwelling of the holy spirit upon salvation.

John 20:22 " And when he said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Recieve ye the Holy Ghost: "vs 23" Whoseseover sins ye remit, they are remited unto them; and whomsever sins are retained ye retain, they are retained."

so they (the eleven remaining disciples, all in that room when the lord appeared)recieve the Holy ghost.

then unto acts 1:8 , you can look that up, and its say come upon you, so the 120 had the hs in them, so why would they need to get it again?

and you know acts 2:38. the evidence of that baptism by speaking other languages, and then boldness evident by peter when he was a converted.

ok, the church of christ here is very selective and doenst acknowledge the saved outside its own group. and that is how they treat water baptism.

if the holy ghost isnt a baptism to you(baptism isnt a english word to begin with but a greek transliteration)

so one must be also baptised in the holy ghost too?

finally, i lived that transformation power aka salvation for the here and now as most pentacostal preach and teach that one has the power to change the situations around by faith(thus that tendency to go overboard with the prosperty in gospel, and on that note a perversion of that doctrine).

when you tell me salvations its all, here and now and in eternity. not one for here, one for heaven.

when i repented , if you only knew how broken i was and how much i came. i need god to teach me these things
social interaction
self confindence
heal the hurts
remove anger,hatred
remove the programming of the world men and women.
any residual effects of the alternate lifestyle
conning
job skills
(i wasnt into cars, i got into them when i bought my second car and had to pay for the rear brakes)

 

[Dennyh]

Just wondering if theres a special prayer thats all. If you wanna help me out on that then thanks in advance.

Nothing special necessary. The only thing God cares about is the fact that you have made a change in your life by repenting of sin and asking His forgiveness, and want to show others(even if it is only your son with you) that you have made that change by being baptized in water. Usually the minister will ask the person being baptized if they come of their own free will and if they understand that this is a picture of the burial and resurrection of Jesus. Also that your life will never be the same.

After that there is usually a dinner following where you may or may not eat fried chicken :p
Please read below.

 

[stovebolts]

Jason,
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm writing. If you look at the verses I've posted, you'll see that the Apostles were baptized, then they received the Holy Spirit. This is also true of Paul so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

As far as the cofC in you're area, I can't speak for them. What I can point you toward is a link that I gave Nathan earlier on the matter from a Professor of Theology from Lipscomb University, which happens to be cofC based as well.

As far as Salvation as a whole, I like to say that God's in the business of transforming lives, as attested, and continues to be attested within your own testimony. The rite of Baptism works toward that end.

What I don't get is how people can take the spiritual out of the physical. It's almost as if we live duel lives. Have we forgotten that Jesus.. well, John says it better than I can, so I'll just quote him. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Why can't God use Baptism as a trans formative means?

 

[stovebolts]

After that there is usually a dinner following where you may or may not eat fried chicken :p

Umm ummm! That's what I'm talking about!

 

[jasoncran]

Jason,
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm writing. If you look at the verses I've posted, you'll see that the Apostles were baptized, then they received the Holy Spirit. This is also true of Paul so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

As far as the cofC in you're area, I can't speak for them. What I can point you toward is a link that I gave Nathan earlier on the matter from a Professor of Theology from Lipscomb University, which happens to be cofC based as well.

As far as Salvation as a whole, I like to say that God's in the business of transforming lives, as attested, and continues to be attested within your own testimony. The rite of Baptism works toward that end.

What I don't get is how people can take the spiritual out of the physical. It's almost as if we live duel lives. Have we forgotten that Jesus.. well, John says it better than I can, so I'll just quote him. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Why can't God use Baptism as a trans formative means?

you back tracked. the verse said that he breathed the holy spirit in them. so why would they need it agian? thus my point saying that received the indwelling but not the immersion as it flowing out through them.


that is what the pentacostal will always disagree with you.

I was being changed slowly before my water baptism. to my knowledge it neither speed up or slowed down when i was baptised(though i see the importance)

is it logical to say that we are all that we need for heaven when we truly repent, and that rest is that being shown through and that the santification process has begun.

baptism is a symbol of that very process.

on the holy ghost. i will reasearch more on that for you.

most of yall non charismatics state the upon salvation you get the holy ghost. true to a degree. the better is this. that the holy ghost is in you as he is God but the baptism you Yeilding and letting him shine through, nothing more.

tis allowing him to move through . with you etc.

thus the gifts.

that isnt water baptism that the apostles got.

and if paul was so picky, why was he according to you.

i will state why, because his name was on the line , he wanted to make disciples and to ensure that they were mature in the faith when they were baptised. so he wanted to see their walk and then baptised them.
nothing wrong with that. would you baptised a carnal christian? or admonish growth first.

 

[stovebolts]

you back tracked. the verse said that he breathed the holy spirit in them. so why would they need it agian? thus my point saying that received the indwelling but not the immersion as it flowing out through them.

Who said again? :help

John 3:26-28 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

You don't think the Apostles were baptized?

Now then, the only re-baptism I can think of would be John's baptism. And we know that the Holy Spirit was given after Jesus had risen.

most of yall non charismatics state the upon salvation you get the holy ghost. true to a degree. the better is this. that the holy ghost is in you as he is God but the baptism you Yeilding and letting him shine through, nothing more.

I'm really not sure what you're arguing against Jason. I would say that baptism is our assurance that we have, or will receive the Holy Spirit. As far as "Shining Through", Paul says that we are united in his death, burial and resurrection" in Romans 6...

 

[jasoncran]

that verse doenst state they were baptised. its states that john was baptising and jesus didnt stop him and the disciples themselves baptised.

no, you dont believe in the ability to heal or work miracles is for today.

that is the difference.

the shining through of the holy ghost is evident, as one has more authority when one recieves the baptism of the holy ghost.

a test. here listen to your pastor then compare to the man kp yohanlon. google gospel for asia. the later is pentacostal lives very simply and talks and walks the walk. he is real.

the evidence of the baptism is this, speaking in unknown tounges. having use in one of the twelve gifts(though that doesnt always work that way)

to this rule there are exceptions

i am the exception to your rule, and will show you.

if what you say is true that only upon water baptism do we recieve this transformation?

how then was i healed of bisexuality for that was done a few yrs before my water baptism?
how then was i shown how to relate to women and others in social situations?
how then was i freed from bondage by a muslim con artist?
stop conning?
stop lying?

I'm not alone on this.others have been delivered before water baptism.

 

[jasoncran]

asking the lord to fix me was the whole reason i came to him. i was a mess and wanted to change but couldnt.

i didnt come to the lord because i was done as a sinner. i was sick of the problems i was causing myself and a little threat of jail does wonders.

 

[Strangelove]

Nothing special necessary. The only thing God cares about is the fact that you have made a change in your life by repenting of sin and asking His forgiveness, and want to show others(even if it is only your son with you) that you have made that change by being baptized in water. Usually the minister will ask the person being baptized if they come of their own free will and if they understand that this is a picture of the burial and resurrection of Jesus. Also that your life will never be the same.

After that there is usually a dinner following where you may or may not eat fried chicken :p
Please read below.

Aha! Yes...this is what I was looking for. Yes I will definately keep that in mind when I do this. Thanks a lot Denny!

.......and I like the idea of fried chicken too. Bakaaaawwwwwww!

 

[stovebolts]

John 3:26-28 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

that verse doenst state they were baptised. its states that john was baptising and jesus didnt stop him and the disciples themselves baptised..

Umm... You might want to read that again Jason.

Let's take a look.
he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness,
These are John's diciples speaking to John. The he, is the one that John barest witness. Thus, he is Jesus.

behold, the same baptizeth
Thus, we have the baptism of Jesus.

no, you dont believe in the ability to heal or work miracles is for today.

that is the difference..

Umm... Do you know who you are talking to Jason? You are sadly mistaken. Why would you assert I take such a position? I have to assume that you are speaking of a particular doctrine within the church of Christ to which I belong. What you need to know is that each church is autonomous which means we are independent of each other, yet united in Christ. What you need to know Jason is that not all the churches of Christ take that postition. Please keep this in mind the next time you assert yourself in such a manner.

Simply put Jason, I don't belong to the church of Christ because I'm first and foremost a Christian. As such, I belong to Jesus and as such, am a member in the Church of Christ.

the shining through of the holy ghost is evident, as one has more authority when one recieves the baptism of the holy ghost.

a test. here listen to your pastor then compare to the man kp yohanlon. google gospel for asia. the later is pentacostal lives very simply and talks and walks the walk. he is real. .

Jason, with all due respect, I'm not going to listen, nor google this person. That being said...
Paul states that we are united in the death, burial and resurection of Jesus upon our baptism and with that, we are assured the Holy Spirit. (Romans 6, please read).
As far as "Authority", Jesus said that he would send us a comforter i.e. Holy Spirit. Jesus came as a sufferning servant and stated himself that he is first, will be last and he who is last, will be first. Thus, I don't see the giving of the Holy Spirit significantly as that of "Authority", but rather as servitude. But I regress, We are talking about Baptism and it's role, not that of the Holy Spirit.

the evidence of the baptism is this, speaking in unknown tounges. having use in one of the twelve gifts(though that doesnt always work that way)

to this rule there are exceptions .

In Acts 2, when it comes to unknown tongues, it must be noted that they were unknown to those who didn't speak that particular language. And note, tongues in Acts 2 were the native languages for those Jews who lived in other nations, and hence, spoke different languages.

As scriptures states elsewhere, the gift of tonges was not granted to each and every person who recieved the Holy Spirit and ironically, Paul puts it at the bottom of the spiritual gifts list. To state that one must speak in a different language, or emenate some sort of feel good babble to be assured of the Holy Spirit is just not a good measure of who has recieved the Holy Spirit...

i am the exception to your rule, and will show you..

Exception to what rule?.. Ya lost me.

if what you say is true that only upon water baptism do we recieve this transformation? ..

Jason,
I fear that you're seriously misreading what I'm writing... I stated that baptism serves God's transforming work. It goes along with, "I'm saved, I'm being saved, and I will be saved." Transformation is an ongoing work, it's not a one time deal.

how then was i healed of bisexuality for that was done a few yrs before my water baptism?
how then was i shown how to relate to women and others in social situations?
how then was i freed from bondage by a muslim con artist?
stop conning?
stop lying?

I'm not alone on this.others have been delivered before water baptism.

Jason,
We all have our own testimonies. But know this, God works in different ways with different people and we should praise God for this.

John 3:8 The pneumatos blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the pneumatos.

Grace and Peace.

 

[jasoncran]

i disagree with your interpretation of the purpose of water baptism. as you have trained to see it that way, and i would say the same(almost) with the baptism of the holy ghost according to my training.

therefore, in the interests of peace i will no longer add to this.

i will leave with this. God is best expercienced not talked about, that is approach we mean with authority, i cant make you see that for in order to do so you have to expercience pentacost yourself.

that doenst mean that you those like you arent knowledgable or saved. having the holy ghost isnt required salvation(the baptism).

i didnt come to the pentacostal ways because of training just that i see the bible that way. i was shown the verses and recieved the h.s. and read it for myself. i read it and men confirmed it that are saved and lead of the holy ghost.

 

[stovebolts]

Jason,
For the purpose of clarity and not that for sake of argument. What do you believe the purpose of water baptism signifies?