Water baptism a requirement for church membership?

[Strangelove]

Strangelove,

It doesn't really matter what I believe, though I did state (and there are other narratives that don't follow this pattern). What's important is what the scriptures say.

To that end, we're talking about a particular piece of scripture and I think I've laid it out pretty clearly. Care to join in the discussion?

I'm pretty new to Christianity Stove. A straight answer would be very helpful.

Do you need to do a physical water babtism in order to recieve the Holy Spirit?

 

[stovebolts]

I hear ya Nate.

When I look at baptism as a whole, and I know this is summarizing extensively, but when one is baptized into Christ, they are immersed in Christ and it is the blood of Christ that is able to forgive sins and it is the blood of Christ that cleanses us.

But it's more than that, because when one is baptized, we are also called to make them students of Christ which shows that this deal with Christ has really just begun. In Short, it's a journey, not a destination.

When one comes to the baptismal pool with a clear conscience in devotion to Christ, I think this in part is the picture we should have in mind. Baptism then becomes an intimate place where we can encounter Jesus.

 

[stovebolts]

I'm pretty new to Christianity Stove. A straight answer would be very helpful.

Do you need to do a physical water babtism in order to recieve the Holy Spirit?

Strangelove,

Sorry bud, you can read just like the rest of us. You see, the object isn't to create people who can spit out the correct answers. The object is to get people to understand for the right reasons.

Grace and peace.

 

[Strangelove]

Does anyone here think that you have to have an actual physical WATER babtism in order to recieve the Holy Spirit?

Anyone?

Please help a confused Brother who is reaching out for guidance.

 

[Nathan]

Does anyone here think that you have to have an actual physical WATER babtism in order to recieve the Holy Spirit?

Anyone?

Please help a confused Brother who is reaching out for guidance.

no...

 

[stovebolts]

Strangelove,

You're looking at scripture as pieces of data without discernment... That's a scary place to be because it places too many things in a black and white perspective. Actually, the way you ask that question would force an answer that would cause water baptism to be looked on as a work of man, and not that of God.

So here is another story in the book of Acts.

The Gentiles Receive the Holy Spirit
10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who heard the message. 10:45 The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were greatly astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 10:46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 10:47 “No one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 10:48 So he gave orders to have them baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for several days.


Now then, what do the two stories have in common?

What did Jesus tell them to do again? Matthew 28:19 ....

 

[stovebolts]

no...

Can you show me a passage in the NT where somebody has received the Holy Spirit and baptism isn't mentioned?

I'm asking you this so that we can gain a healthy perspective of what baptism accomplishes.

 

[Nathan]

I hear ya Nate.

When I look at baptism as a whole, and I know this is summarizing extensively, but when one is baptized into Christ, they are immersed in Christ and it is the blood of Christ that is able to forgive sins and it is the blood of Christ that cleanses us.

But it's more than that, because when one is baptized, we are also called to make them students of Christ which shows that this deal with Christ has really just begun. In Short, it's a journey, not a destination.

When one comes to the baptismal pool with a clear conscience in devotion to Christ, I think this in part is the picture we should have in mind. Baptism then becomes an intimate place where we can encounter Jesus.

Very well put. Baptize is definitely not a 'one shot' deal. It is a continuation. But we confuse it with the 'one shot' deal of water. Who would not be confused.

Water baptism is not required to receive the Spirit, but baptism into the Person of Christ is.

I like that last sentence of yours Stove. We do encounter Him there. In fact, I believe it is one of the very first fruits of obedience. It is a conformation to those around us of our Faith in Christ, and a magnificent joy in us to have followed in the same footsteps He walked. There is a reason why He had to be baptized.

We have completely messed it up. It sickens me. It saddens me that I have never in my life been to a church where they taught baptism in this manner. Everyone wants to 'add' too it, or take from it. Or even worse than that completely warp it without teaching the real meaning to what Jesus was instructing us to do.

 

[Nathan]

Can you show me a passage in the NT where somebody has received the Holy Spirit and baptism isn't mentioned?

I'm asking you this so that we can gain a healthy perspective of what baptism accomplishes.

Baptizm does not always mean with water. It is a complete imersion, one in which one becomes that which it is being imersed into. If that were the case, the person would drown.

However, when a person is baptised into the NAME of Christ, they are imersed into His teachings, and converted to His Faith. They become 'one' with Christ. That is the only time when baptism, as described and defined by the original Greek language is truly observed and complete.

No where does it say that people were physicaly baptized into water to recieve the Holy Spirit.

Act 1:4-5 "And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Notice the word "but", it is an indication of a difference.

 

[Strangelove]

Now then, what do the two stories have in common?

What did Jesus tell them to do again? Matthew 28:19 ....

What do they have in common? um......babtism?

Whats your interpretation of this verse??

11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I ask again for clarification of your position. Is the water part necessary?​

 

[stovebolts]

Nate,
I get the feeling I'm in good company with you. Any differences we would have would be of little significance I'm sure.

Jeff

 

[stovebolts]

What do they have in common? um......babtism?

Whats your interpretation of this verse??

11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I ask again for clarification of your position. Is the water part necessary?​

Strangelove,
I would say that considering Jesus commanded us to baptize, that it's normative that Christians are thus baptized with water. (please stop misspelling it, you're an intellectual fellow and I don't appreciate your mockery).

 

[Nathan]

What do they have in common? um......babtism?

Whats your interpretation of this verse??

11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I ask again for clarification of your position. Is the water part necessary?​

It is not necessary for the receiving of the Spirit. But it is a fruit that will be born in the life of everyone who follows Christ. Is it necessary for Salvation? No. Is there something wrong when a person does not want to do it? Yes.

 

[Strangelove]

Strangelove,
I would say that considering Jesus commanded us to baptize, that it's normative that Christians are thus baptized with water. (please stop misspelling it, you're an intellectual fellow and I don't appreciate your mockery).

What am I mispelling? Baptism? Thats how its spelt no? Hold on.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I just looked it up thats correct. Babtism. Why would you think I'm trying to mock? Your discernment is off Brother concerning my intentions I can tell you that as fact.

Normative? Interesting choice of word.

That doesn't mean necessary. A standard maybe. So I'll take that as meaning you dont think the water part is critical to recieving the Holy Spirit. Correct?

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Strangelove]

Baptizm does not always mean with water. It is a complete imersion, one in which one becomes that which it is being imersed into. If that were the case, the person would drown.

However, when a person is baptised into the NAME of Christ, they are imersed into His teachings, and converted to His Faith. They become 'one' with Christ. That is the only time when baptism, as described and defined by the original Greek language is truly observed and complete.

No where does it say that people were physicaly baptized into water to recieve the Holy Spirit.

Act 1:4-5 "And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Notice the word "but", it is an indication of a difference.

This is what I thought about babtism. I agree with this.

Are we in a minority here Nate?

I've never talked about this with anyone before.

I've never been to church. I read the NT and it never even crossed my mind that I needed a water babtism/. Is that unusual? Am I a weirdo Christian? Or not a Christian at all??? Stove?

 

[stovebolts]

Baptizm does not always mean with water. It is a complete imersion, one in which one becomes that which it is being imersed into. If that were the case, the person would drown.

However, when a person is baptised into the NAME of Christ, they are imersed into His teachings, and converted to His Faith. They become 'one' with Christ. That is the only time when baptism, as described and defined by the original Greek language is truly observed and complete.

No where does it say that people were physicaly baptized into water to recieve the Holy Spirit.

Act 1:4-5 "And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Notice the word "but", it is an indication of a difference.

Ahh, I see what you're saying. In regard to the pickle, I would agree
However, baptism as it pertains to the rite, doesn't take on the analogy of the pickle. Take a look at this verse as an example on how the word is being used.
Matthew 3:6 and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

This of course is John's baptism. That being said, I'm pretty sure the apostles were baptized in water with the baptism of Jesus before they recieved the gift of the holy spirit.

John 3:26-28 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

Nate,
The way I see it, water baptism was / is a normative demarcation for entering into the visable body of Christ (the Church). But water baptism is much more than just that, because it's also a place where we meet Christ. Yes, we are even buried with Christ, and raised new with Christ as the scriptures state.

Romans 6:3-5 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

This still doesn't answer all the questions, but if I can help it, I will push forward where I can to try and bring some depth back into the rite of baptism because I see too many people that just think it's something they do when they join a new denomination. And sadly, there are many people who've been dunked in a tank of water several times. Yes, in that sense baptism has been watered down to the point where the person getting baptized is simply getting wet to join a club.

Know what I mean?

 

[stovebolts]

I don't find the word babtism in the dictionary...

It's spelled baptism.

tell me Strangelove, are you against water baptism?

 

[Strangelove]

But water baptism is much more than just that, because it's also a place where we meet Christ.

Know what I mean?

Not really Stove.

I met Christ in the Gospels.

G'night all.

God bless all of us.

 

[stovebolts]

I've never been to church. I read the NT and it never even crossed my mind that I needed a water babtism/. Is that unusual? Am I a weirdo Christian? Or not a Christian at all??? Stove?

I'm not one to judge you in that manner Strangelove. But what I do know is that Jesus commanded us to baptize and make disciples and in the writing of the NT, it was normative that those entering into the church were baptized (water).

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

So the question isn't a matter of "Do I need to do this", but rather, "Will I follow Jesus into the baptismal waters". You see, Jesus went into the baptismal waters so if we call ourselves followers of Christ, hence the word Christain, what would cause one not to follow Jesus into the water?

Strangelove,
Will you follow Jesus into the Baptismal waters?

 

[francisdesales]

So the question isn't a matter of "Do I need to do this", but rather, "Will I follow Jesus into the baptismal waters". You see, Jesus went into the baptismal waters so if we call ourselves followers of Christ, hence the word Christain, what would cause one not to follow Jesus into the water?

Ah, yes. You have hit the nail on the head...I was waiting for you to do so!

The very question "Do I need to receive water baptism?" implies a form of legalism, the very thing that Jesus and Paul were adamantly AGAINST. "What must I do to be saved" implies "if i do this and that, God owes me salvation". If I do such and such rituals, etc... The proper response to God is one of a child-like faith and trust in His mercy and kindness. NOT asking "what must I DO. That is not a child-like response (remember, one CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM without having this child-like response, one of utter and complete trust in God, not "hedging one's bets"...)

With the knowledge that one is UNITED WITH CHRIST'S DEATH THROUGH BAPTISM, what sort of question is "Do I need to be water baptized"???? Those who take their walk in Christ seriously, heeding the call of God's Loving Mercy, it would seem natural that a person WOULD become baptized. To ask "is it necessary" strongly suggests that there are other motives and a response that God does NOT desire - legalism...

To answer the question, then, if one KNOWS about Baptism and what it is supposed to do in the spiritual realm, the answer is obvious. If one dies without ever hearing about such knowledge (say, an Inca of 1300 AD), we rely on the Law written in one's heart by that same Spirit who comes - and those who Love are born of God. Refusing to be baptized is a disobedience to the Will of God and clearly shows there is still need of conversion. Being ignorant of baptism is not something that prevents God from reaching out to mankind. God is not bound by the sacrament that He ordinarily requires for the beginning of union with Christ.

Regards