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Well, they did it...

Blazin Bones said:
If you'll read my post you see that I too have "done the research" in regards to homosexuality. In all cases, every time a genetic link is "found" it is later repealed. If you are asserting that psychological patterns or tendencies are the result of natural, uncontrolable circumstances, than I would beg to differ. I do believe that you may be more studied than I am in Psyhology, but that doesn't prove the case of natural homosexuality. Psychology is not so much a science of facts as genetics is.
What research? I've read researd done by Klein, Frued, Jung, and Kinsey. All of them tackled sexuality and showed us things we were ignorant of before. In nature we find homosexual animals all the time. There are cases all over the world in countries where porn is banned yet homosexuals still apear, Romania, Russia, Czech Republic, Slovania etc.

Its a phenominon but its still natural.

Oh and the whole thing about Romans I having to be true.

Rabbits don't chew cud yet the old testament is still held as valid.
 
that last line has been proven true i will dig up that later and show you. they chew but it isnt cud more like their dung, that's a poor translation, i will post the actual two links one from an aethist website that quotes the scientific findings and another from a apologetics site

jason
 
Blazin Bones said:
I'm seeing a bit of a mis-eqivocation here. So he has preferences toward women's clothing and prefers the companionship of men over women, since when did this make a person homosexual? You are right in that these behaviors make it easier to fall into the active sin of homosexuality, but neither make this person homosexual in the least.

Handy, I also have a close friend with a similar story and he will never once say that this makes him homosexual. It means what he likes and enjoys are not typical for a guy. Some accuse men who are sensative to feelings or who have more airy personalities of being homosexual as well, but this is not the case in the slightest. What they are, is simply not the cookie cutter

A homosexual is a person who willfully participates or seeks to partipate in sexual relations with a person of their own gender. Your friend and mine both have not made that choice. The proplem is that so many people have allowed certain traits to become associated or attached to this personal choice that we've created a false idea of what homosexuality really is. The only real trait of a person living out homosexuality is the willful engaging in or pursuit of same sex, sexual relations.

Are some christians quick to single out people who call themselve homosexuals and to shun and condemn them? Yes, there are certainly plenty of examples as I am sure lance could inform us. However, homosexuality is not a "natural occurance" or we make Romans 1:26 and 27 are wrong, making God's word flawed.

I'm not exactly sure what the term mis-eqivocation is, but I don't think we are disagreeing on any points here, Bones. I am starting a trend with myself to never equate sexual orientation with homosexuality. Biblically, homosexuality is the act. Sexual orientation would be being drawn towards the same-sex, but not the action. It is the action that is condemned in Scriptures, not the orientation. I realize it's a bit confusing, but when I went to the Synod Assembly of the ELCA and dealt with this very same issue at a more local level, I found that we really need two different words to describe someone who is actively participating in sex with the same gender and someone who is orientated that way, but not actively participating in the behavior. The words, even the idea of sexual orientation isn't dealt with in the Scriptures, and to my way of thinking, there is no sin in one's orientation, regardless of what it is. However, homosexuality, as well as other sexual sins including lust, both hetero and homo, are condemned as sin.

Vic, I agree wholeheartedly! I know that it's easy to look at this issue as one of being compassionate, but I'm missing a brother-in-law whom I very much would have loved to know and have my children know, one whom my husband misses terribly due to the fact that the Church did not respond to his sin in this area correctly and therefore he was led astray and died of AIDS. Last summer, I watched my elderly Dad waste away with cancer and it was hard. How terrible to see someone young and vital slowly and agonizingly die due to this horrible disease. Homosexuality is not the unforgivable sin, and I have great hope to see my brother-in-law in heaven. But, what a high price he paid for being ignorantly and wrongly taught, when his own church cast him out due to this issue.

Lewis, I know brother. Please pray for my husband in this issue. This is a very sticky area for my husband and my in-laws. My b-i-l's death was so hard on all of them, and the way that my m-i-l and f-i-l have coped is to buy into the lie that there was nothing sinful about his behavior and that it was all the church's fault for turning their back on him when he got sick. For my husband to leave this church which we all attend, is going to be very, very hard on everyone involved. My in-laws are also our next door neighbors, as well as beloved family members and it's just a very complicated issue. However, I also must believe that God has strengthened Steve's faith to the point where he can do the right thing. It's just that there is more to it than just walking out of a church gone astray.
 
Vic, I agree wholeheartedly! I know that it's easy to look at this issue as one of being compassionate, but I'm missing a brother-in-law whom I very much would have loved to know and have my children know, one whom my husband misses terribly due to the fact that the Church did not respond to his sin in this area correctly and therefore he was led astray and died of AIDS. Last summer, I watched my elderly Dad waste away with cancer and it was hard. How terrible to see someone young and vital slowly and agonizingly die due to this horrible disease. Homosexuality is not the unforgivable sin, and I have great hope to see my brother-in-law in heaven. But, what a high price he paid for being ignorantly and wrongly taught, when his own church cast him out due to this issue.
I fully understand Dora. In 1999 alone, I watched two of my friends waste away and die due to their promiscuous and drug riddled lifestyle. The second of the two hit me hard and brought me to the point where God finally took me into HIS flock.

In the late 80's, I lost a dear friend, Roseann, to the same terrible lifestyle. Always the life of the party, she succumbed to AIDS. :sad Me, being brought up in an Italian, RC family, never was the promiscuous type and was fortunate enough to never really concern myself with contracting any STD. My struggles were more with recreation drug use and softcore material, if you know what I mean.

Rom 3:23 in a nutshell.

The whole homosexual lifestyle and issue can be as damaging as any other vise or sin. From second hand, personal experience, it is devastating. Then again, so is one's parents getting divorced, or alcohol, or drugs or porn, or etc.
 
Dora wrote
Lewis, I know brother. Please pray for my husband in this issue. This is a very sticky area for my husband and my in-laws. My b-i-l's death was so hard on all of them, and the way that my m-i-l and f-i-l have coped is to buy into the lie that there was nothing sinful about his behavior and that it was all the church's fault for turning their back on him when he got sick. For my husband to leave this church which we all attend, is going to be very, very hard on everyone involved. My in-laws are also our next door neighbors, as well as beloved family members and it's just a very complicated issue. However, I also must believe that God has strengthened Steve's faith to the point where he can do the right thing. It's just that there is more to it than just walking out of a church gone astray.
I understand, I can see that you have a lot on your plate.
 
I want to clear up something. I saw this in Handy's post, so I wanted to jsut make a correction. So I just give a brief explanation of what sexuality is and why Kinsey and Klein are held so highly in the study of "sexology". Yeah that is the literal term, before Kinsey no one really wanted to tackle the subject because it was taboo.

Jung and Frued tried to give Gender and Sexual reasons behind people, but most of their work was guesswork and way out there. Jung thinking that the brain had both genders in it and balance was needed to be obtained to keep a person normal or to ascend. Frued thought Men where homosexual based on either a lack luster father, or none at all. Also saying an overbearing abusiveness mother can cause males to be attracted to the same sex. Females where lesbiens becaue they hated men, and because they saw themselves as castrated and wanted to use another women to make up for the lack of a penis. I'm not kidding, Some still hold the female one to this day, think about Fem nazis.

When Kinsey came on the scene he wanted to take down and actually figure out what exactly was sexuality. he was a biologist and was basicly wanting to study the biggest questions we had. Witch biologically where about procreation and sex. Of course if some of the things were redone today, the doctor, professor, etc. would be arrested and jailed because some of the things he did weren't exactly kosher. Though his research did answer questions we needed to know.

Now Klein basicly came along and fine tuned Kinsey's research and expanded the Kinsey scale and smoothed out the edges.

According to Both Kinsey and Klein most people where to some degree Bi Sexual. Here are the core terms of sexuality.

Asexual - No Sexual attraction to either gender. None at all, can have emotional attraction though.

Heterosexual - A person who is exclusively attracted to the opposite gender.

Bi sexual- A person attracted to both Genders to any varied degree.

Homosexual - A person attracted to exclusively the same gender.

The scale invented by Kinsey and spruced up by Klein is. 0 - 7. 0 being A sexual. 1 being Heterosexual, 4 being evenly bi sexual, and 7 being homosexual.

According to Klein most people are either a 3-5. 3 being bisexual with stronger feelings towards the opposite gender, and reverse for a 5. This explanation actually fits with Christian teachings that homosexuality is a choice. If a person is a 2 - 5 they can find a relation ship with a women and be happy. But a 6 or 7 would have a hard time.

I rank 6 on Klein's Grid( out of 7) and 5 on Kinsey ( out of 6, Kinsey had little research on Asexuality)
 
Lance_Iguana said:
[quote="Blazin Bones":272x1191]Handy, are you suggesting it is possible to be naturally inclined toward one gender over another? There is not one study that proves homosexuality is genetic. I've done the research and I think you would be hard pressed to find anything more than penguins and speculation to support a genetic, natural link to homosexuality.
You once told me not to talk about interpretation because I haven't done much study into it. Now I likewise ask you not to stumble into the realms of sexuality and psychology which are my areas of Study. Just because there is no "gene" for it, doesn't mean there isn't a natural ocerance for such behavior.[/quote:272x1191]

You have a good point. There is no "gay" gene any more so than there is a "straight" gene. I believe, based off my own personal research that homosexuality is determined by a hormone imbalance which most often manifests itself during puberty. I do not believe that it's any more a "choice" than heterosexuality is. I do not believe it can necessarily be fixed either, or that those who are homosexual would even want it to be fixed if they were given the option.

As for marriage, I agree that it should be an equal benefit. As far as legality is concerned, I see no reason why a judge should deny two consenting adults from marrying one another, however, as far as religion is concerned I feel it should be left up to the individual church. This one has clearly decided that marriage is the best way to go. I can see where they are coming from, it's either fornication and living in even MORE sin than they already are or being married and thus, not fornicating. Certain individuals are not going to recognize their marriage as legitimate because they are of the same sex, but at the very least the couple and their church will recognize it.

If you guys haven't realized thus far, I'm a big proponent of equal rights...
 
the word of the Lord says it sin and sin, all sin has consequences, with all senstivity to those who lost friends, I was warned by a friend when i was gay that lifestyle could have that consequence, if you going to see a doctor and were sick would want to be told truth, all sin is sick and leads to death, repentance is necessary, the cross and the law are in the bible for a reason, latter tells us were sick and the former is the cure.

jason
 
Believers have friends and family who are gay, of course. One of my closest friends 'came out' when we were in our early twenties, and I watched her enter a life of violent abuse, promiscuity, lewdness, and humiliation. Eventually she had enough, and settled down with one person (another woman) in a quiet life, and they lived together until she died back in 2004. I spoke at her funeral. I also have several other gay men friends, but we grew apart over the years due to marriage and distance...a phone call here and there is usually how we stay in touch. I rarely visit them, because their lifestyle has a party tone, usually sexually themed events, and I am not comfortable in that atmosphere...when it's more of a family function I see them occasionally. My aunt is gay and lives with another woman. My husband visited them weekly to do heavy work for them and care for their cars, and my children love them dearly. Since he died we just visit now. I also have family and friends that struggle with drugs and alcohol, that live together out of wedlock, that are guilty of adultery, materialism, deceit, etc. and I love them all. I love them enough to live my beliefs before them, pray for them, and be there when they need me.

Just because we are grieved over sin doesn't mean we are full of hatred for the people we love. People who are unwilling to admit to sin, and turn away from it, are not pleasing the Lord with repentant hearts. Believers are given over to God's will. I am not saying they are perfect, but they are not trying to justify their sin before a Holy God, but rather repenting and asking Him for help to overcome. Elders and Deacons have to meet a specific critera according to Scripture, and one is years of an orderly and spiritual life. The idea that we are more fair if we condone more sin in the church, and within our elderships, is not true. On the other hand, I do believe that we need to require elders to actually be qualified, which we haven't, and that's why we are in our present situation. It's complacency that has gotten us here, and the church's solution is to allow more sin in so that we can seem 'fair' and 'loving'. That's not the answer. We really just need to tear down the high places as Josiah did, and ask God what He desires and be led by His Word.

I find the op's information something to grieve, not justify, even if I have compassion for those who are caught up in a powerful sin of the flesh. We all deal with lusts of the flesh, and we all need to be careful that we do not love this world. I also think it's the fruit of a church that has tolerated sin of all kinds. The idea is that the church really needs to keep herself pure, and not be adulterous with this world, and so repentance and reform seems to be the best answer. We are not doing anyone any favors by condoning sin, and 'accepting' gay marriages is sinful, and worst of all we are being presumptuous before a Holy God who has shown us great love and mercy. All people need a beacon of truth and light before them so that they can see God in a dark world, and we are supposed to be providing that for the sake of Christ...living it in love. We can have compassion and love while holding to the Truth of God's Word and putting God first above compromise that is disquised as compassion and love. The answer is let's stop being complacent and seek to tear down the high places and get back to just being given over to pleasing the Lord.

Just some thoughts. The Lord bless all of you.
 
I heard about this story and it shocked me. This is not good and unfortunately I think more and more churches will start making its own rules on what they want to follow instead of what the bible actually teaches and this particular subject is an issue that is very very clear in the bible. I hope you and your family make it out of this mess the church has created, Handy. I am starting to see more churches lean closer and closer to this one where I live. I live in Seattle and I think we may rank right behind or not far behind San Fransisco as far as the amount of homosexuals which is a large number. I have gone by church in Seattle that had a big banner out front that was a rainbow and it said the church supported equality. Some churches are definitely stepping on very dangerous terrain.
 
JohnEboy1983 said:
I heard about this story and it shocked me. This is not good and unfortunately I think more and more churches will start making its own rules on what they want to follow instead of what the bible actually teaches and this particular subject is an issue that is very very clear in the bible. I hope you and your family make it out of this mess the church has created, Handy. I am starting to see more churches lean closer and closer to this one where I live. I live in Seattle and I think we may rank right behind or not far behind San Fransisco as far as the amount of homosexuals which is a large number. I have gone by church in Seattle that had a big banner out front that was a rainbow and it said the church supported equality. Some churches are definitely stepping on very dangerous terrain.
Seattle has the highest concentration of Homosexuals in the United states. The Castro is just famous because of Harvey Milk. Its more of a vacation spot then an actual living destination now, thanks to high rent and that it really isn't that big of a district.

Oh and churches reforming to do what they want, has been going on since the Protestants and the Catholics. It almost a mantra at this point, its nothing new.
 
understood, lovely, i pray for those lost in that sin, and others, a time to grieve indeed. I haven't talked or have had a real conversation with anyone of lbgt community in a while, i did work with two lesbians they quit and and work only one job.

jason
 
Firefighters report tornado

National Weather Service meteorologists are working to confirm the tornado reports. A number of trained NWS storm spotters reported seeing rotation prior to what Minneapolis firefighters have characterized as a tornado touchdown.

Storm came out of nowhere

No sirens sounded and no tornado warnings were issued in the city before the storm hit. Rain had been falling most of the day in the Twin Cities metro, but the storm came as a major surprise to everyone in the area.



And, here is a picture of Central Lutheran Church which was hosting a breakfast for Assembly delegates. In this case I do think that a picture is worth a thousand words:
I find this very inspiring. They probably are bowing to government pressure as well. It is also happening in Canada. I hope the next act is that a big tree falls right in front of the door. :lol
Being as how the governments want the church to stay out of the state of the government. It would be wonderful if the government would stay out of the church.
If such things continue...Christians will just have to go to home Bible studies. Just more arrogance on equal liberties. It's bad enough that you can't even email a letter without someone poking their nose into your IP address. I can only say the governments of this world will also be judged for their rank, as in fowl smelling, so called equal justice and liberties.
 
lovely said:
Just because we are grieved over sin doesn't mean we are full of hatred for the people we love. People who are unwilling to admit to sin, and turn away from it, are not pleasing the Lord with repentant hearts. Believers are given over to God's will. I am not saying they are perfect, but they are not trying to justify their sin before a Holy God,

Well said Lovely.

Handy, you and your family will continue to be in our prayers. Our Lord hears and answers our prayers, Hang in there! Your brother in Christ, Westtexas
 
justvisiting said:
Firefighters report tornado

National Weather Service meteorologists are working to confirm the tornado reports. A number of trained NWS storm spotters reported seeing rotation prior to what Minneapolis firefighters have characterized as a tornado touchdown.

Storm came out of nowhere

No sirens sounded and no tornado warnings were issued in the city before the storm hit. Rain had been falling most of the day in the Twin Cities metro, but the storm came as a major surprise to everyone in the area.



And, here is a picture of Central Lutheran Church which was hosting a breakfast for Assembly delegates. In this case I do think that a picture is worth a thousand words:
I find this very inspiring. They probably are bowing to government pressure as well. It is also happening in Canada. I hope the next act is that a big tree falls right in front of the door. :lol
Being as how the governments want the church to stay out of the state of the government. It would be wonderful if the government would stay out of the church.
If such things continue...Christians will just have to go to home Bible studies. Just more arrogance on equal liberties. It's bad enough that you can't even email a letter without someone poking their nose into your IP address. I can only say the governments of this world will also be judged for their rank, as in fowl smelling, so called equal justice and liberties.
Ok. The Government backs completely out of the Church. Everyone is now happy. Though now all government acknowledgment of a person's marriage from this point on is not present. If you want the benefits of marriage, their is always power of attorney. ;)

I also don't understand how the government has anything to do with Handy's church anyway. The Church chose to acknowledge same sex marriage. I don't see any government intervention.
 
Well, I don't know if that is what really caused it...but that type of pressure is happening in Canada.
It's all about minority rights... Perhaps it comes right from the top of the Lutheran system, that government pressure occurred.
Otherwise, if it's not government, the Lutheran congregations should be taking a serious vote.
The United Church did it here.
I never did go to their church anyway. It just disturbs me, when I see we are losing ground. Even sharing the gospel openly in public, is becoming a crime. Seriously.
 
justvisiting said:
Well, I don't know if that is what really caused it...but that type of pressure is happening in Canada.
It's all about minority rights... Perhaps it comes right from the top of the Lutheran system, that government pressure occurred.
Otherwise, if it's not government, the Lutheran congregations should be taking a serious vote.
The United Church did it here.
I never did go to their church anyway. It just disturbs me, when I see we are losing ground. Even sharing the gospel openly in public, is becoming a crime. Seriously.
i have heard this from other canadians, and i will share this with my church, if i go to jail for my testimony so be it, i dont preach hate but that being gay is a sin, and god forgives, that's all

jason
 
jasoncran said:
justvisiting said:
Well, I don't know if that is what really caused it...but that type of pressure is happening in Canada.
It's all about minority rights... Perhaps it comes right from the top of the Lutheran system, that government pressure occurred.
Otherwise, if it's not government, the Lutheran congregations should be taking a serious vote.
The United Church did it here.
I never did go to their church anyway. It just disturbs me, when I see we are losing ground. Even sharing the gospel openly in public, is becoming a crime. Seriously.
i have heard this from other canadians, and i will share this with my church, if i go to jail for my testimony so be it, i dont preach hate but that being gay is a sin, and god forgives, that's all

jason


I support you right to speak that you believe homosexuality is a sin. I don't support your belief making homosexuality a crime. Which it was here in TX up until very recently. I don't support your belief making laws that homosexuals do not get equal rights. People used to bible to say slavery was biblical. They used the bible to say banning interracial marriage was biblical. Now they use the bible to keep homosexuals from having equal rights. Believe what you want, but you beliefs should not be law.
 
murder is the bible yes, sin, yes, a law against yes, morees become laws, think about it. Where do we stop with this rights,look at canada and brittian, Gabe posted an article on the UK government basically running the church, they have to hire lbgt, and they are to push the acceptance of gays.

You claim that science is good, What about the many studies done of health of child in a traditional(man and woman) family, that's bunk now because it's homopobic and pc,(also why i loose faith in some scientists).

Bad families , bad or wicked society.

I know what you believe and it's humanism, not going to change you and vice versa.
 
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