Well, they did it...

[justvisiting]

I support you right to speak that you believe homosexuality is a sin. I don't support your belief making homosexuality a crime. Which it was here in TX up until very recently. I don't support your belief making laws that homosexuals do not get equal rights. People used to bible to say slavery was biblical. They used the bible to say banning interracial marriage was biblical. Now they use the bible to keep homosexuals from having equal rights. Believe what you want, but you beliefs should not be law.kenmaynard
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Posts: 121
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Well, if you read the post more carefully, you'd see that I'm speaking about the government likes to get involved in the churches having to give equal rights to gays...hence homosexuals ministers... which I consider an abomination. This church may have just allowed it without government pressure, but government pressure is occurring here.
I didn't mention anything about making homosexuality, a crime. I was talking about the ability to witness in public is even becoming a crime. The government keeps getting their fingers in the church's business, is what I am saying.

My personal opinion on gay ministers. If the government demands they should be allowed as ministers, then should have their own churches. Since when is it equal rights, when they can inflict their ideals on me (in a church) and I am not allowed to give my view. It really is like reverse discrimination.
Honestly, I wouldn't even step in the door if I knew the minister stood for sodomite behavior anyway.

 

[kenmaynard]

murder is the bible yes, sin, yes, a law against yes, morees become laws, think about it. Where do we stop with this rights,look at canada and brittian, Gabe posted an article on the UK government basically running the church, they have to hire lbgt, and they are to push the acceptance of gays.

You claim that science is good, What about the many studies done of health of child in a traditional(man and woman) family, that's bunk now because it's homopobic and pc,(also why i loose faith in some scientists).

Bad families , bad or wicked society.

I know what you believe and it's humanism, not going to change you and vice versa.

All citizens should have equal rights. It is a simple concept. A person should not be barred from seeing their partner in the hospital just because they are homosexual.

 

[jasoncran]

I support you right to speak that you believe homosexuality is a sin. I don't support your belief making homosexuality a crime. Which it was here in TX up until very recently. I don't support your belief making laws that homosexuals do not get equal rights. People used to bible to say slavery was biblical. They used the bible to say banning interracial marriage was biblical. Now they use the bible to keep homosexuals from having equal rights. Believe what you want, but you beliefs should not be law.kenmaynard
Christian Forum Friend

Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:14 am
E-mailTop]

Well, if you read the post more carefully, you'd see that I'm speaking about the government likes to get involved in the churches having to give equal rights to gays...hence homosexuals ministers... which I consider an abomination. This church may have just allowed it without government pressure, but government pressure is occurring here.

My point exactly, just look at how the dems in america use reverse racism and call it ok, not exactly what MLK wanted.

jason

 

[jasoncran]

there's no law in florida that says (to my knowledge) homosexuality is crime or cant visit each other in a hospital, a living will and the other legal documents can give rights to them to allow care. I have that with my wife concerning if should become invalid and there's also the medical power of attorney. Been around for years. Currently In florda it's illegal for gays to adopt children that being challenged now. I hope it remains.

If its overturned many catholic adoption agencies may close and they feel that's wrong already happened in Mass.

jason

 

[justvisiting]

All citizens should have equal rights. It is a simple concept. A person should not be barred from seeing their partner in the hospital just because they are homosexual.kenmaynard
Christian Forum Friend

I have no plan of watering down the gospel to please a bunch of sodomites. You should read God's view. He doesn't have to be subject to governments.
As for the live and let live of it. The government determines that. I just don't want a reverse discrimination position, where I have to put up with their views being inflicted on me.

 

[kenmaynard]

All citizens should have equal rights. It is a simple concept. A person should not be barred from seeing their partner in the hospital just because they are homosexual.kenmaynard
Christian Forum Friend

I have no plan of watering down the gospel to please a bunch of sodomites. You should read God's view. He doesn't have to be subject to governments.
As for the live and let live of it. The government determines that. I just don't want a reverse discrimination position, where I have to put up with their views being inflicted on me.

Your position is hateful. All citizens should have equal rights.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Here is a breakdown of how this works.

Same sex marriage and adoption


Lets say there are 5 groups Plus the Government officials at the time.
The Basic rules are don't Murder and don't Steal. The government decided to Give opposing Sex people the right to adopt, Marry in a courthouse, and receive benefits for either.
groups A, B, C, D, and E.

Group A Is against Same Sex Marriage and Adoption. Group B is fore Adoption and Marriage. Group C doesn't Care. Group D Is against Marriage but doesn't really care about Adoption. Group E doesn't care about the Marriage aspect but doesn't want adoption.

Now, Group B says they want the Equal ability of the other groups. Government goes Ok, but why. Group B wants these rights. Group B explains that they function the same way and are just as able as couples from Group A. They just want the same benefits and rights, just modified to include them. Government goes, ok.

Groups A , D, and E say that allowing such rights undermine thier beliefs. Government goes, ok you don't have to acknowledge Group B.

Groups A,D,and E throw a fit and starts harrassing Group B. Group B harrasses Groups A,D, and E right back.

Government gets annoyed and starts setting rule that any violent action against Group B is now punishable. Group A,C, D, and E are offended and now think group B is being treated special.

Government fed up says ok we are going to vote on this. All groups except C are now in an uproar screaming at each other and now the government is now allowing Group B rights in certain places but not everywhere. Groups A, D, E are still complaining and Group B is now irritated that they can't be left alone by the other groups, and Group C now wants B to have the rights just to end this mess.

Government can't do anything anymore because the groups can't be satisfied.

What was once a simple request that should have been simple is now a huge mess because Groups A, D, and E, couldn't share and Group B just happens to be an easy target.

In short, Free speech is for everyone, Separation of Church is supposed to stay out of law, and the whole nation is wrapped up in a playground sissy slap fight that some other 1st world countries solved years ago. :crazy

 

[westtexas]

I support you right to speak that you believe homosexuality is a sin. I don't support your belief making homosexuality a crime. Which it was here in TX up until very recently.

??????????????????? What part of Texas do you live in? Please give me 1 link of someone going to jail or being indicted for being homosexual. The only law being broken is God's law--THE BIBLE.

Westtexas

 

[kenmaynard]

I support you right to speak that you believe homosexuality is a sin. I don't support your belief making homosexuality a crime. Which it was here in TX up until very recently.

??????????????????? What part of Texas do you live in? Please give me 1 link of someone going to jail or being indicted for being homosexual. The only law being broken is God's law--THE BIBLE.

Westtexas

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-102.ZS.html

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-102.ZS.html

The very case that overturned the the law making it illegal.

 

[justvisiting]

In short, Free speech is for everyone, Separation of Church is supposed to stay out of law, and the whole nation is wrapped up in a playground sissy slap fight that some other 1st world countries solved years ago.
Lance_Iguana
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Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:13 pm
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Well, If I'm in "A" it doesn't much matter to me whether B to Z differ. The biggest thing that irks me is when the all passifying Government says "B" gets to play...in "A's" playground. My opinion...get out of my church...and go start your own.
Obviously an oversimplification. The Bible is our final standard (and God's view)...not equality, not the ruling powers, not B-Z. I CAN appreciate the difficulties of running a fair nation. When fairness goes the point of reverse discrimination ( where the minorities rights are now able to step on the toes of the majority, or even other minorities) then the Government is WRONG. They don't happen to care about the will of God, I would tend to think...just appeasing the masses.Acts 5:27  And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
28  Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
29  Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
We are not militant about the Government's respect, for our ability to practice our beliefs even with zeal... but we do desire the right for our faith to keep it's purity...without their secular mass appealing, intervention.

 

[kenmaynard]

In short, Free speech is for everyone, Separation of Church is supposed to stay out of law, and the whole nation is wrapped up in a playground sissy slap fight that some other 1st world countries solved years ago.
Lance_Iguana
Christian Forum Regular

Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:13 pm
Private messageE-mailMSNM/WLM]

Well, If I'm in "A" it doesn't much matter to me whether B to Z differ. The biggest thing that irks me is when the all passifying Government says "B" gets to play...in "A's" playground. My opinion...get out of my church...and go start your own.
Obviously an oversimplification. The Bible is our final standard (and God's view)...not equality, not the ruling powers, not B-Z. I CAN appreciate the difficulties of running a fair nation. When fairness goes the point of reverse discrimination ( where the minorities rights are now able to step on the toes of the majority, or even other minorities) then the Government is WRONG. They don't happen to care about the will of God, I would tend to think...just appeasing the masses.Acts 5:27  And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
28  Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
29  Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
We are not militant about the Government's respect, for our ability to practice our beliefs even with zeal... but we do desire the right for our faith to keep it's purity...without their secular mass appealing, intervention.

If you implying that giving homosexuals equal rights steps on toes then you are dead wrong. No law has ever been proposed that would force any church to marry couples.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

In short, Free speech is for everyone, Separation of Church is supposed to stay out of law, and the whole nation is wrapped up in a playground sissy slap fight that some other 1st world countries solved years ago.
Lance_Iguana
Christian Forum Regular

Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:13 pm
Private messageE-mailMSNM/WLM]

Well, If I'm in "A" it doesn't much matter to me whether B to Z differ. The biggest thing that irks me is when the all passifying Government says "B" gets to play...in "A's" playground. My opinion...get out of my church...and go start your own.
Obviously an oversimplification. The Bible is our final standard (and God's view)...not equality, not the ruling powers, not B-Z. I CAN appreciate the difficulties of running a fair nation. When fairness goes the point of reverse discrimination ( where the minorities rights are now able to step on the toes of the majority, or even other minorities) then the Government is WRONG. They don't happen to care about the will of God, I would tend to think...just appeasing the masses.Acts 5:27  And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
28  Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
29  Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
We are not militant about the Government's respect, for our ability to practice our beliefs even with zeal... but we do desire the right for our faith to keep it's purity...without their secular mass appealing, intervention.

The USA isn't making Churches marry people. The Churches have choice on who they marry. Group B already do have churches that will marry them, they already have entire religions that allow for same sex marraige. The entire controversy is over overblown parinoia and ignorance. Group A dosen't like something, so they don't want any group to have it.


By the way, that wasn't an oversimplification. I described what happened last year in California. All the events I mentioned happened in California.

Government said Same sex maraige is legal. Several Republicans threw a fit and scared the heck out of the voting populace. Flat out lied to the state about what was going on. Half the people that voted to repeal the new right thought they where voting to stop the new right, they didn't know this was already a right.

In short, group A ripped the right to marriage away from already married couples and future married couples. Whats even worse, they tried to forcefully divorce the already married couples. Thankfully they where denied this.

This issue has caused so much pain, all because people won't even let people get a paper at a court house, or even go to a church that already accepts them.

Stop telling me who I should love. Its not your call, its between me and God, Not you.

 

[jasoncran]

look at England in a few months it will be forced upon the church to hire lbgt as secrataries, and even they are being asked by the government to preach the acceptance of gays in society and that's ok with god to be gay. I believe that's what justvisting may be seing in canada.

That law is in england is for the lbgt to have equal oppurtunnity not marriage, churches are allowed certain exemptions in the labor law there(used to) and here.
http://www.breakpoint.org/commentaries/ ... n-churches
link for this and Gabe who used to be on this site posted this and she is a uk subject.

 

[kenmaynard]

look at England in a few months it will be forced upon the church to hire lbgt as secrataries, and even they are being asked by the government to preach the acceptance of gays in society and that's ok with god to be gay. I believe that's what justvisting may be seing in canada.

That law is in england is for the lbgt to have equal oppurtunnity not marriage, churches are allowed certain exemptions in the labor law there(used to) and here.
http://www.breakpoint.org/commentaries/ ... n-churches
link for this and Gabe who used to be on this site posted this and she is a uk subject.

I find the source suspect. It provided no details, just opinion. Where is the link to the law itself. Also England has a state church. The church of England. I see no reason a state church wouldn't have to follow state law. We have no state church in the U.S.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

The only I will say is that I will pray for all those involved in this sensitive issue. It's tough and not as black and white as some would like us to think. At the end of the day, only God know what the right course of action is.

 

[kenmaynard]

The only I will say is that I will pray for all those involved in this sensitive issue. It's tough and not as black and white as some would like us to think. At the end of the day, only God know what the right course of action is.

That is a bit of a cop out. Equal rights is the clearly the only right thing to do. One does not have to force small churches to marry people they don't want to or hire someone against their will. Outside of that when say a mega church like Lakewood or Second baptist hires a construction company or police to handle their enormous traffic they should not be allowed to say no homosexuals or no blacks etc.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

The only I will say is that I will pray for all those involved in this sensitive issue. It's tough and not as black and white as some would like us to think. At the end of the day, only God know what the right course of action is.

That is a bit of a cop out. Equal rights is the clearly the only right thing to do. One does not have to force small churches to marry people they don't want to or hire someone against their will. Outside of that when say a mega church like Lakewood or Second baptist hires a construction company or police to handle their enormous traffic they should not be allowed to say no homosexuals or no blacks etc.

Sorry you feel that way ken. At the end of the day, all I can do is pray about it since I have no influence in this space. Personally, regardless of whether someone views this as a sin or not, I do feel that our government has an obligation to ensure that all of its citizens have equal rights. I will leave it at that.

 

[handy]

I think this thread has morphed into discussing two very different topics:

Governmental equal rights

and

Church Doctrine and practices

As was mentioned, here in Amercia, we have no state-run church, and our Constitution actually forbids government to be meddling in church affairs. If I was at Lakewood or one of the other mega-churches and the government told me that I HAD to pay someone that my church taught was clearly in sin, I'd be in court arguing "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." However, that is a subject for a different thread.

This thread is specifically about the ELCA and how, while claiming to be a church that upholds the Bible as God's inspired Word, voted to do something that clearly violates said Word. The ELCA made their decision based solely on some very bad exegsis of Scriptures, the government had nothing to do with it.

And, I really don't see this as a "grey" area. The ELCA states in their statement of belief that they believe the Bible, "both Old Testament and New the written Word of God. Inspired by God's Spirit speaking through their authors, they record and announce God's revelation centering in Jesus Christ. Through them God's Spirit speaks to us to create and sustain Christian faith and fellowship for service in the world. " (ELCA Confession of Faith)

I believe that if we keep our kids there, we will be teaching them that, yeah, you can say you believe in God's word, but go ahead and ignore it, if it becomes too uncomfortable, inconvienent or politically incorrect.

 

[kenmaynard]

Not to get too far off topic, but I will address one point. I don't think that mega churches should have to hire anyone they don't want to, but Lakewood and Second Baptist hire public police to direct traffic. These are public employees. They have no right to demand they be able to discriminate in their hiring. Hey if they don't want police then fine too.

Same goes with construction. Second baptist has a large number of contractors on site repairing damage from Hurricane IKE. If they had asked the contractors to not allow homosexuals or divorcees or whatever to work on the project I would say they have no standing. They didn't have to hire contractors let their members do the work or they could just pray for God to perform a miracle and fix the building himself.

 

[handy]

I think we just found some common ground, Ken. While I would fight and fight hard the goverment telling my church who they could or couldn't hire, I wouldn't want to see my church force any and all sub-contractors, service folks or whomever to fill out personal questionaires.