What About Those In Non-Christian Lands Who Have Never Heard The Gospel?

[eddif]

Hebrews 6:13 kjv
13. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14. Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Of course Abraham got the thing God promised, in spite of what Abraham and Sarah tried.

There are conditional and un conditional times, changes. Etc.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[jeremiah1five]

Question: How is God good or just to abandon to Hell those who have never even heard the gospel?

JAG Writes:

Consider the following:

First, we Bible believing Christians start with the true proclamation that
God always does that which is right.

This means that the God who always does what is right, world-wide
and history-wide, is never going to abandon one of His elect to Gehenna,
but will find a way to save them and give them the gift of eternal life as
per John 3:16's "shall not perish but have eternal life."

Second, we Bible believing Christians MUST stay within the confines
of doctrinal orthodoxy and so we hold solid and fast to John 14:6
that correctly teaches: no man can come to the Father except through
believing in the Lord Jesus as his Savior.

Third, none of the above prevents us from considering the following:

Eternal Now. With regard to God's knowledge there is no past. present and future.
God sees everything in the Eternal NOW. God's Omniscience demands this position.
God now knows all that can be known, God does not learn new information and new truths.


So?

So the Eternal NOW knowledge is God's reality. And God's reality IS REALITY.

What YOU (we) can see is very limited and what YOU (we) can see IS NOT REALITY.

God has Middle Knowledge -- what that means is that God sees and knows fully
what every human being would choose to do under all possible sets of different
circumstances.


Let us take for an example a man named Akua Adisa, born in Africa in the year 1600 A.D.

Akua lived and died never knowing a single word of the gospel message.

God's Middle Knowledge knows precisely what Akua Adisa will choose to do in all possible
sets of circumstances --

-- for example if Akua Adisa had been born in, say, South Carolina in the year 1990 A.D.
and had traveled to hear Franklin Graham preach the gospel.

How is this ↓ conclusion NOT compelling?
If the Sovereign God knows that Akua Adisa would have accepted the Lord Jesus as his
Savior if he had been born in the year 1990 A.D. in South Carolina when he heard Franklin
Graham preach the gospel then in God's reality Akua Adisa has accepted the Lord Jesus as
his Savior and has therefore fulfilled the requirements of John 14:6 no man can come to the
Father except through faith in the Lord Jesus.

Are we not compelled to reach this conclusion?

Thoughts?

__________________________

PS
God's Omniscience demands we hold that God has what the philosophers call
Middle Knowledge.


JAG

[]

Simple.

17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Jn 17:1-6.

This giving is between the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit.)

 

[jeremiah1five]

Hebrews 6:13 kjv
13. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14. Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Of course Abraham got the thing God promised, in spite of what Abraham and Sarah tried.

There are conditional and un conditional times, changes. Etc.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Like Moses Abraham saw it 'afar off.'

 

[GodsGrace]

Don’t forget we are bi-polar at times.
Romans 7:25 kjv
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Law in new heart of flesh
Law in new Minf of Christ

We will be delivered at the last trump. The resurrection is not already past.

The law the prophets spoke is an internalized version of the law of Moses.

The law in our hearts is love joy Peace patience gentleness understanding. We get to lay aside our bag of rockes to stone folks with.

Remember auto mechanics.
Knowledge is to know what is wrong
Wisdom is to j know what will fix the problem
Understanding is to not use too much force and destroy the part being restored.
Love is to do the repair without cussing and throwing tools.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Am I throwing tools?
I like to read the red lettering in bibles.
Jesus spoke the words in red.

Paul agrees with Jesus, but he says the same thing in different ways and it gets some persons
confused about what he meant. I am certainly not denying his apostolic authority since even Peter referred to Paul's writings as scripture.

I do believe it's important for new Christians, or even older Christians, to understand that Jesus saves but we must follow the rules of the Kingdom in order to remain in the Kingdom.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Am I throwing tools?
I like to read the red lettering in bibles.
Jesus spoke the words in red.

Paul agrees with Jesus, but he says the same thing in different ways and it gets some persons
confused about what he meant. I am certainly not denying his apostolic authority since even Peter referred to Paul's writings as scripture.

I do believe it's important for new Christians, or even older Christians, to understand that Jesus saves but we must follow the rules of the Kingdom in order to remain in the Kingdom.

Once in the kingdom always in the kingdom never to leave for any reason:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one. Jn 10:28–30.

And the kingdom of God is not a place, 'it' is a Person.

 

[atpollard]

However, most scholars believe he DID take his manechaeism with him to Christianity because predestination was never spoken of before him.

… except by Luke and Paul:

[Act 4:28 CSB] 28 "to do whatever your hand and your will had predestined to take place.
[Rom 8:29-30 CSB] 29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.
[1Co 2:7 CSB] 7 On the contrary, we speak God's hidden wisdom in a mystery, a wisdom God predestined before the ages for our glory.
[Eph 1:5, 11 CSB] 5 He predestined us to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ for himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ... 11 In him we have also received an inheritance, because we were predestined according to the plan of the one who works out everything in agreement with the purpose of his will,

 

[Fastfredy0]

YOU base your theology on men. Just men from now, 2,000 years later. I like the early theologians and trust them more.

Not true .... I believe in Sola Scriptura ... and the teacher's I follow do the same. It is a founding principle of my theology.
Sorry, I said I'd give you the last word ... but I had to respond to that statement.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Could you list some NT verses that state that we are chosen by God for salvation?
Thanks.

I could list many saying we're chosen, election, predestine, foreknown, willed, yahda, yahda

I'll just throw out one the specifically states it is God's will who is born again and not man's will.
John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

There are no verses alluding to the assurance of salvation.

Assurance - A statement or indication that inspires confidence
With all your theological knowledge you are trying to tell me that you know of no verse that inspires confidence in you that you are saved? That is VERY surprising ... maybe we define the word differently or have a miscommunication.

Two of many verses that give people assurance that they are saved.
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
“We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren” (1 John 3:14)

Faith requires belief in God.
If nothing else is known, it is all we need.

Premise 1: Christ is God
Premise 2: Many are dead who never heard of God
premise 3:

No one goes to the Father except through Jesus.

Conclusion: If you are dead and never heard of Christ you're in hell (there is salvation in no other per many verses)

But I would like to then know, WHY Jesus had to die at all IF God is doing the choosing?

The question has a false premise. Christ did not die of everyone with exception. We know Christ didn't die for everyone because faith cometh by hearing and God and did not enabled billions of people to hear of Christ which is a prerequisite for faith.

Since YOU don't have to accept Jesus because God chose you, why would Jesus be required to die?

False premise. You have to accept Christ and because God chose you God ensures your total depravity is changed so you freely believe
1 God chooses you
2 God regenerates you
3 Regeneration causes you to believe salvificly.

The toast is a little too burned for my taste.

*giggle*

 

[Fastfredy0]

I just read the bible at face value and follow the path to the truth.

Where can I find documentation that agrees with 90%+ of your theology? .... or is your theology uniquely contrived (invented/fabricated) on your own?

Aside: I can point you with documents that 10s of thousands agree with, can you do the same.

 

[GodsGrace]

… except by Luke and Paul:

[Act 4:28 CSB] 28 "to do whatever your hand and your will had predestined to take place.
[Rom 8:29-30 CSB] 29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.
[1Co 2:7 CSB] 7 On the contrary, we speak God's hidden wisdom in a mystery, a wisdom God predestined before the ages for our glory.
[Eph 1:5, 11 CSB] 5 He predestined us to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ for himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ... 11 In him we have also received an inheritance, because we were predestined according to the plan of the one who works out everything in agreement with the purpose of his will,

Hi A,
I'm really tired of posting the same old verses.

Think of this: Why did those that Luke and Paul teach (well, Paul actually - not Luke) NOT agree with your beliefs?
Could it be that predestination was not in the language of the early Christians the way that the reformed believe?

And think of this: Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli (?) and the rest didn't come to teach this until about 1,500AD.
Could it be that ALL the theologians that came before them (except for Augustine, of course) could be so stupid that they didn't see this destination/decree idea?

And did you ever wonder why the "orthodox" church did NOT accept Augustine's version of predestination?

But,. because I'm so nice,
Just quick, I'll refer to your verses above:

[Act 4:28 CSB] 28 "to do whatever your hand and your will had predestined to take place.
God had indeed predestined Jesus to die. This was from the beginning of the creation of man.
[Rom 8:29-30 CSB] 29 For those he foreknew he also
God FOREKNEW

predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,
We were predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.
Those God foreknew He also called or invited (yes, through prevenient grace) etc.
[1Co 2:7 CSB] 7 On the contrary, we speak God's hidden wisdom in a mystery, a wisdom God predestined before the ages for our glory.
The wisdom of God was determined (predestined) for us to know probably long before man was even created.
[Eph 1:5, 11 CSB] 5 He predestined us to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ for himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ...
God predestined us to be adopted as sons....through Jesus...

11 In him we have also received an inheritance, because we were predestined according to the plan of the one who works out everything in agreement with the purpose of his will,
We were predestined according to God's plan (of salvation) according to the purpose of His will.


Please notice that all of the predestinating has to do with:
HOW
A PLAN
FOREKNOWLEDGE
(A PURPOSE
A MINISTRY)

A purpose and a ministry are not included in your verses...
however, when you see the word PREDESTINED, it always refers to one of the above purposes
and NOT to an individual being chosen to be saved.

If God is loving, merciful and just,
WHY would He create human beings just to send them to hell when they die?

Why would He not give us free will and decree all that will happen,
and then still hold us responsible?

That God is neither loving, merciful or just.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, the unchanged life is the sign of unbelief.


I agree that you can not be a saved person who does no work.
Where we differ is, you do not remain saved on the merits of doing work. No more than you became a saved person on the merits of your works. The faith that drives the works is the basis for becoming saved and remaining saved. Faith is what keeps you in the Father, the Son, and the promise of eternal life (1 John 2:24-25), not works. Works are the sign that you are doing that.


Cheap grace and easy believism, a.k.a. Free Grace, or Hyper Grace, are abhorrent doctrines that I exclude from any serious discussion about Christianity. At this time it does not represent mainline Protestantism. So, no need to go there.


You're not getting the argument.
You don't have to do works TO BE JUSTIFIED.
Justification (being made righteous) is by faith, apart from works (Romans 4:6).

You have to do works because works are what accompany salvation (Hebrews 6:9-10), like how getting wet accompanies the person who swims in a pool. You don't get wet in order to swim in the pool. You are wet because you are swimming in the pool. Your works are because you are immersed in the Holy Spirit in salvation. You don't work to become saved, or stay saved. You continue to believe to stay saved.


That is what God's grace does. It enables us to do his will. But doing his will is not how you are justified, nor remain justified.


Easy Believism, Free Grace, Hyper Grace, etc. purposely ignores the fact that the Bible says the person who does nothing is not born again. There's no reason to include that pathetic theology in this discussion. It's a joke.

The reason I would include it is because many come away from a discussion like this believing exactly that.
They believe that as long as they have faith, they're safe.

But they're not.

It doesn't matter how you wish to understand it, we must all agree that AFTER salvation it becomes necessary to OBEY God...the obedience requires that we do good works.

It's as simple as that.

I posted many verses, not much more I can do.

 

[eddif]

Where can I find documentation that agrees with 90%+ of your theology? .... or is your theology uniquely contrived (invented/fabricated) on your own?

Aside: I can point you with documents that 10s of thousands agree with, can you do the same.

There are 10s of 1000s that agree on error.

So be careful with that statement of yours.

Job had three friends, a whirlwind, Satan and his folks against one. Numbers do not mean truth.

King David numbered the fighting force and many died.

I am not against you though.

I talk about human anatomy. My wife lets me know folks roll their eyes behind my back.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Fastfredy0]

There are 10s of 1000s that agree on error.

Agreed. Millions of RCs and millions of protestants both can be right.

So be careful with that statement of yours.

why? The bible says there's wisdom in the council of many. Therefore, it is more likely that 1000s of people agreeing on "X" is more likely than 1 or 2 people.

Job had three friends, a whirlwind, Satan and his folks against one. Numbers do not mean truth.

Agreed... again, numbers increase the likelihood of truth but is not a guarantee.

Aside: reform and RC theology are attacked more that any other because they are the only ones that take a clear stance on a majority of theological topics. Others, for the most part, can't get together in a large group and agree upon a coherent, systematic understanding of truth. Many (most?) tend to go it alone.

 

[eddif]

Agreed. Millions of RCs and millions of protestants both can be right.


why? The bible says there's wisdom in the council of many. Therefore, it is more likely that 1000s of people agreeing on "X" is more likely than 1 or 2 people.


Agreed... again, numbers increase the likelihood of truth but is not a guarantee.

Aside: reform and RC theology are attacked more that any other because they are the only ones that take a clear stance on a majority of theological topics. Others, for the most part, can't get together in a large group and agree upon a coherent, systematic understanding of truth. Many (most?) tend to go it alone.

I will look up your response. I can be wrong.

eddif

 

[atpollard]

Think of this: Why did those that Luke and Paul teach (well, Paul actually - not Luke) NOT agree with your beliefs?

Those are not MY BELIEFS … I posted quotes from what Paul and Luke WROTE. It was Paul and Luke that wrote “predestined” in all those places. It was you that said NOBODY taught “predestination” before Augustine. Paul and Luke clearly did (I only quoted them to demonstrate that they taught about it).

 

[GodsGrace]

Those are not MY BELIEFS … I posted quotes from what Paul and Luke WROTE. It was Paul and Luke that wrote “predestined” in all those places. It was you that said NOBODY taught “predestination” before Augustine. Paul and Luke clearly did (I only quoted them to demonstrate that they taught about it).

The rest of Christianity knows that the reformed faith has misunderstood all the verses you posted and has also changed the nature of a loving, merciful, and just God.

The verses ARE what you choose to believe and not what biblical writers intended.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Those are not MY BELIEFS … I posted quotes from what Paul and Luke WROTE. It was Paul and Luke that wrote “predestined” in all those places. It was you that said NOBODY taught “predestination” before Augustine. Paul and Luke clearly did (I only quoted them to demonstrate that they taught about it).

Moses, too.
Genesis 3:15 is a prophecy of the predestination of God manifest in the flesh.
The predestination of the Messiah, the Christ of God.

 

[atpollard]

and has also changed the nature of a loving, merciful, and just God.

Now I feel POWERFUL!!!!
Who knew that I had the power to change the very nature of God?
(I knew He changed my nature.)

 

[eddif]

1 Corinthians 3:4 kjv
4. For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5. Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6. I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8. Now the one planting and the one watering are one, and each will receive the own reward, according to the own labor.
9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

Now I feel POWERFUL!!!!
Who knew that I had the power to change the very nature of God?
(I knew He changed my nature.)

Not funny.
I guess the serious discussion is over.
You really should investigate in WHY only the reformed believe as they do.