What About Those In Non-Christian Lands Who Have Never Heard The Gospel?

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus Christ literally SPOKE to me and made several STATEMENTS OF FACT.

1. I did not know him.
2. He understood my pain and had come with an offer.

God did not speak to me audibly, but he said these same things to me, too.

I grew up in a quasi Christian home and we attended church off and on while growing up. I thought I was good with God by virtue of my parent's relationship with God.

Not so. By my late teens, early twenties I realized I was not good with God and would not go to be with him when I died.

Long story short, I wanted to be saved but I realized that I could not get from here to there. My heart cried out in despair.

Then I heard how God cared that I was a slave to sin and couldn't work my way to him. I heard about how he wanted to forgive me. And so I fell on his love and mercy and he forgave me and put his Spirit inside of me and I became a new person. I was born again.

That was 37 years ago and I haven't looked back. May his name be forever praised.

 

[GodsGrace]

We are all, individually, a work in progress:

13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. Ephesians 4:13-14

Some are slower learners than others. Some are more stubborn than others. Some don't bother to read the Bible for themselves for much progress in the knowledge of God to occur and instead are only exposed to the nicely packaged and outlined, narrow indoctrination of a particular denomination.

And so we're all buffeted by the winds of false teachings to one degree or another as the anchor of truth is being set in our lives. But, ultimately, the sons and daughters of God, are all moving toward unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of Christ.

It's a progression. Not a progression toward becoming sons and daughters of God, but a progression toward learning about Jesus and becoming more like him through knowledge (Ephesians 4:21-24, Colossians 3:10).

Different denominations has nothing to do with growing in our faith.
Now, false teachings, that's another story.
How are we to know which are the false teachings?
And I really don't see us working toward any unity.
We all seem to have our ideas, we all seem to believe we're right and others are wrong.
That's what I see.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, I do not believe that, generally speaking, once a person is saved they can never forfeit their salvation. I say 'generally' because I think there are believers who have matured to the point where they will never go back to unbelief, no matter what. What I believe is a person must continue to believe in the ministry and sacrifice of Jesus to remain in the everlasting effect of Jesus' ministry and sacrifice (1 John 2:24-25).

Is it possible for a true believer to stop believing? I'm not totally sure. But as I say, I believe there are believers who aren't ever going to go back to unbelief. All I know is the Bible says it is incumbent on the believer to continue to believe in order to stay in Christ and keep the sinless perfection they received one time for all time and which does not peter out . The fact that Christ's ministry does that for us is the very reason we should continue to believe in so great a promise (Hebrews 4:14, Hebrews 10:23). Because you can't keep that which you no longer believe and trust in (Hebrews 10:26).

I agree with the above.
I asked because if you do NOT believe in OSAS then you also believe a person could lose their justification.
We would no longer be right with God. *
So this ongoing justification Catholics believe in,,,would also be lost.
I guess you won't ever be convinced.
So, you see, this is one case where Protestants and Catholics agree and we still can't see eye to eye.

*(however, we can come back to God if we repent, again).

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, but not because your obedience makes you righteous, and therefore, qualified to enter the kingdom of God, but because a turning away from God in disobedience is the sign of unbelief.

It is your unbelief that will keep you out of the kingdom, not your sinning. For the sinning of the believing person is continually cleansed away by the intercessory ministry and sacrifice of Christ they believe and trust in (Romans 8:34, Hebrews 7:25). And so it is through our believing that our sinless, perfect status before God is maintained, not our works.

Hmmm.
I'm not sure ONLY BELIEVING is sufficient after we're born again.
The NT does state that WE ARE to do good deeds,,,,there's no maybe about it.
For whatever reason you want to understand this necessity,,,nonetheless, it IS a necessity.

Galatians 6:9 ESV / 1,259 helpful votes​

And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

Colossians 3:17 ESV / 984 helpful votes​

And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

James 4:17 ESV / 951 helpful votes​

So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

James 2:26 ESV / 919 helpful votes​

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

​

Matthew 7:21-23 ESV / 878 helpful votes​

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Hebrews 10:24 ESV / 821 helpful votes​

And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

James 1:27 ESV / 732 helpful votes​

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

​

In the above source, there's a whole page of verses.
I do believe we are REQUIRED to do good deeds.
As per James, Paul, and even Jesus!

 

[atpollard]

God did not speak to me audibly, but he said these same things to me, too.

It is ironic, but I am most impressed by the "unimpressive" stories. R.C. Sproul talks about growing up in a Christian home and not being able to remember a time when he did not have a relationship with God ... so probably around age 4-5. I know that God can save sinners, what an amazing thing that God is faithful to 1000 generations of those that Love Him. That is a story that takes my breath away. [I have a daughter.]

 

[GodsGrace]

It is ironic, but I am most impressed by the "unimpressive" stories. R.C. Sproul talks about growing up in a Christian home and not being able to remember a time when he did not have a relationship with God ... so probably around age 4-5. I know that God can save sinners, what an amazing thing that God is faithful to 1000 generations of those that Love Him. That is a story that takes my breath away. [I have a daughter.]

RC Sproul still had to make his own decision in following his parents and becoming a believer in his own right.
He also wrote of his experience upon entering seminary (a college) and how he couldn't understand something or other about the reformed faith, which I can't think of right now, and he had to ponder this topic and come to some understanding about it.

I don't know for sure if he ever really understood.
When MacArthur or Piper give a sermon or answer a question or teach on something, they seem to be extremely confident and absolutely sure of what they state. RC always seemed to me to be holding back a bit.

But this is neither here nor there.
Sorry for the ramble.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm not sure ONLY BELIEVING is sufficient after we're born again.
The NT does state that WE ARE to do good deeds,,,,there's no maybe about it.
For whatever reason you want to understand this necessity,,,nonetheless, it IS a necessity.

Good deeds are a necessity, but not for the purpose of being justified or remaining justified. For as long as you continue to believe in the ministry and sacrifice of Jesus all your sins when you commit them get forgiven by the ministry and sacrifice of Jesus you believe in.

You would have to go back to unbelief for the ministry and sacrifice of Jesus to no longer forgive your sins when you commit them. So, no, you don't have to do good works in order to remain justified. You must continue to believe in Christ in order to remain justified. Your works are the evidence that you believe in God and are continuing to believe in him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree with the above.
I asked because if you do NOT believe in OSAS then you also believe a person could lose their justification.
We would no longer be right with God. *
So this ongoing justification Catholics believe in,,,would also be lost.
I guess you won't ever be convinced.
So, you see, this is one case where Protestants and Catholics agree and we still can't see eye to eye.

*(however, we can come back to God if we repent, again).

I believe in ongoing justification, not progressive justification.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, I am perfectly righteous and a non-sinner.

The moment I believed the gospel message all the guilt of my sin was forgiven,

Don't you mean "your sin was forgiven"?
How can guilt for sin be forgiven?

and the righteousness of God was credited to my account, and so I became sinless and perfect before him (Hebrews 10:14). And I remain sinless and perfect before him through the completed but ongoing intercessory ministry of Jesus continually cleansing me from the guilt of my sin (Hebrews 7:25, Romans 8:34).

Continually?
Where is the repentance from sin?
Where is the service to only one master?
Where is there any love in continual sin?

Who taught you this horrible accommodation for sin ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Sanctification means to be cleansed and set apart for a holy purpose. That setting apart for that holy purpose happens the moment a person believes:

It happens when one is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Cleansed by the blood of Christ.

10And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:10
And we spend the rest of our lives becoming that which we have been set apart to be and do:
14because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:14

Starting out pure and free from sin really helps one remain free from sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I believe in ongoing justification, not progressive justification.

It seems you believe in on and off justification.
Justified again after each new sin.

 

[eddif]

So which is it ... God's GOODNESS or God's JUSTICE that is violated by refusing to admit UNREDEEMED and UNREPENTANT SINNERS into His heaven?

Romans 11:22 kjv
22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Because of the goodness we can seek God
Because of his severity we behave (?)

Mississippi redneckk

I understand what you were getting at now.

I know from experience that others have a hard time understanding what I am trying to say. I get that.

I would be interested in hearing how you would say it. Given your background and your favorite scriptures.

In other words. Lay your understanding in us. Tell it like it are. (Source of pre history 101)

Then maybe someone else may understand.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

Sanctification means to be cleansed and set apart for a holy purpose. That setting apart for that holy purpose happens the moment a person believes:

10And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:10

And we spend the rest of our lives becoming that which we have been set apart to be and do:

14because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:14

I follow you.

We could look at Paul

Ok here we go:
A.Saul of Tarsus
Christian persecuter
B.God decides he can use Saul
C.Bam blind
D. Saul starts to pray.
E. God contacts Disciple (?) Acts 9:10 kjv
10. And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
F. Layed hands on Saul Bam Paul healed and baptized in Holy Spirit
G. Paul starts preaching

So in my redneck mind the original act took place in the mind of God.

The rest off Alphabet may be needed.

Answay
Plan of God
Calling
Sanctification
(Other steps?)

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

Good deeds are a necessity, but not for the purpose of being justified or remaining justified. For as long as you continue to believe in the ministry and sacrifice of Jesus all your sins when you commit them get forgiven by the ministry and sacrifice of Jesus you believe in.

You would have to go back to unbelief for the ministry and sacrifice of Jesus to no longer forgive your sins when you commit them. So, no, you don't have to do good works in order to remain justified. You must continue to believe in Christ in order to remain justified. Your works are the evidence that you believe in God and are continuing to believe in him.

Well, as you've often said, good works are a SIGN of belief.
So the opposite must also be true...no good works ARE a sign of UNBELIEF.

So your second paragraph doesn't stand.

We must do good works/deeds in order to remain saved.
Or, apparently by all counts, we no longer believe.

This is called synergy.
Only the reformed believe in monergism.
Other Protestants do not, but we have come to believe in cheap grace and easy believism.
I didn't make up those terms BTW....I got scolded once.

We cheapen God's grace by stating that we need do nothing.
What is God's grace good for anyway if not to embolden us to do His will?

And easy believism...yeah, leave everything up to Jesus so the person has to do nothing and still be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, I don't agree for 4 reasons that come to mind.

• Paul says the Christians were immature in their knowledge/theology .... Paul had to give them 'milk' instead of 'solid food' being the analogy. This indicates they had more to learn and that we should not take them as our example.
• John in Revelations speaks to 7 churches and only one didn't have some sort of reprimand. This indicates they had more to learn and that we should not take them as our example.
• even Peter's behavior was reprimanded by Paul and Pete was an apostle no less
• basing theology on the behavior of men is always a bad idea (see history of men .... giggle)

What you don't agree with is that the very early Christians could be referred to as to what Jesus taught and the Apostles, in turn, taught.

° Paul didn't know the Early Christians. Didn't you ever study church history?
° Ditto
° Paul was starting a new way of thinking. I'm not sure this has anything to do with what they taught since Peter did change his mind.
° YOU base your theology on men. Just men from now, 2,000 years later. I like the early theologians and trust them more.

Aside: not trying to be too personal ... but maybe your original R.C. upbringing has given you a bias.

That's funny.
No comment.
You keep forgetting that I had to learn about at least 3 different denominations.
And I'm tired of saying it.

Re: God is the authority. God's word is therefore the authority.

Aside: Our belief are not totally different. We just choose to spend time on the differences and not the similarities.
Why do our beliefs differ ... .... can't say for sure .... initial indoctrination would be part of it, who we were trained by and respect, our parents, books we've read, personal bias, varying presuppositions. (Heck, I don't know why so many people now think men and turn into women)

Our beliefs are very different FF.
I just read the bible at face value and follow the path to the truth.
It seems simple enough to me.

Apparently Augustine changed his mind
From: https://www.gotquestions.org/Manichaeism.html
In fact, one of the first major Christian apologists, Augustine, was a convert from Manichaeism. Prior to committing to Christ, Augustine was part of Manichaeism as a “hearer,” or someone who participated without making any overt vows toward the faith.

Yes he did. You're right.
However, most scholars believe he DID take his manechaeism with him to Christianity because predestination was never spoken of before him.
And the way to God was from our belief in Him and our good works/behavior.

 

[GodsGrace]

If God gave us official "representatives' then YES, those would be my primary theologians. But this relies on the premise the God has assign such a thing, which I do not agree to. God does give the gift of teaching to some but that is in no way infallible.

Don't you think Jesus made the Apostles be representatives in Matthew 28:19?

Well ... I clarify the need for WORKS to be saved
WORKS are an effect of FAITH, not a cause of salvation. No works indications you were not saved (unless you were the thief on the cross... giggle) Your statement would have works as a cause of salvation and I have it as an effect.
Lot of verses saying we are not saved by works ... you do have James going for your side .. no need to dig further for now

I can't remember what I said.
We are not saved by works.
But works are essential AFTER we become born again.

This is my belief, and it's upheld by biblical verses.

Galatians 6:9 ESV / 1,259 helpful votes ​

And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

Colossians 3:17 ESV / 984 helpful votes ​

And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

James 4:17 ESV / 951 helpful votes ​

So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

James 2:26 ESV / 919 helpful votes ​

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

​

Matthew 7:21-23 ESV / 878 helpful votes ​

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Hebrews 10:24 ESV / 821 helpful votes ​

And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

James 1:27 ESV / 732 helpful votes ​

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Philippians 2:13 ESV / 720 helpful votes ​

For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Titus 2:7-9 ESV / 714 helpful votes ​

Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us. Bondservants are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,

​

Titus 3:14 ESV / 683 helpful votes ​

And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.

Matthew 7:21 ESV / 676 helpful votes ​

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

​

There's much more, but I hate carpet bombing.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, we disagree on this one. You have 6-8 verses relying on ambiguous words ALL, EVERYONE and WORLD and conjecture of Prevenient Grace ... I have 400 verses, logic and the attributes of God that are contrary to your position
.... IMO

Could you list some NT verses that state that we are chosen by God for salvation?
Thanks.

I have. We will agree to disagree



No ... (there are many verses alluding to Assurance of Salvation for both sides of the argument.

There are no verses alluding to the assurance of salvation.
Even the reformed don't have assurance until they reach the end of their life.

there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

The Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8

This is untrue. Faith requires knowledge of something to believe in by definition. (maybe you are thinking along another line, not a major point)

Faith requires belief in God.
If nothing else is known, it is all we need.

Limited Atonement and whether Muslim (who don't know God/Christ) are apples and oranges.
Limitied Atonement NOT EQUAL 'anyone without salvific faith'

No. This is an important understanding.
Christianity believes that Jesus died for ALL MEN. Every single person that ever lived or ever will live.
It is through HIS SACRIFICE that anyone at all can be saved. No one goes to the Father except through Jesus.
Everyone goes to God, however they get there, through God's Son and His sacrifice.

If you believe in a limited atonement, of course you won't accept the above.

But I would like to then know, WHY Jesus had to die at all IF God is doing the choosing?
In my belief system we must ACCEPT the Son's Sacrifice in order for salvation to happen.

Since YOU don't have to accept Jesus because God chose you, why would Jesus be required to die?

Muslim's doctrine say Jesus is NOT GOD. Therefore, they do not know God and do not worship God. They don't have faith in God which is needed for salvation. I can give 10ish verses saying Christ is the ONLY way. By definition Muslims deny 'the Way'. The logic is black and white ... they're toast.View attachment 15459

The toast is a little too burned for my taste.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well, as you've often said, good works are a SIGN of belief.
So the opposite must also be true...no good works ARE a sign of UNBELIEF.

Yes, the unchanged life is the sign of unbelief.

We must do good works/deeds in order to remain saved.
Or, apparently by all counts, we no longer believe.

I agree that you can not be a saved person who does no work.
Where we differ is, you do not remain saved on the merits of doing work. No more than you became a saved person on the merits of your works. The faith that drives the works is the basis for becoming saved and remaining saved. Faith is what keeps you in the Father, the Son, and the promise of eternal life (1 John 2:24-25), not works. Works are the sign that you are doing that.

This is called synergy.
Only the reformed believe in monergism.
Other Protestants do not, but we have come to believe in cheap grace and easy believism.
I didn't make up those terms BTW....I got scolded once.

Cheap grace and easy believism, a.k.a. Free Grace, or Hyper Grace, are abhorrent doctrines that I exclude from any serious discussion about Christianity. At this time it does not represent mainline Protestantism. So, no need to go there.

We cheapen God's grace by stating that we need do nothing.

You're not getting the argument.
You don't have to do works TO BE JUSTIFIED.
Justification (being made righteous) is by faith, apart from works (Romans 4:6).

You have to do works because works are what accompany salvation (Hebrews 6:9-10), like how getting wet accompanies the person who swims in a pool. You don't get wet in order to swim in the pool. You are wet because you are swimming in the pool. Your works are because you are immersed in the Holy Spirit in salvation. You don't work to become saved, or stay saved. You continue to believe to stay saved.

What is God's grace good for anyway if not to embolden us to do His will?

That is what God's grace does. It enables us to do his will. But doing his will is not how you are justified, nor remain justified.

And easy believism...yeah, leave everything up to Jesus so the person has to do nothing and still be saved.

Easy Believism, Free Grace, Hyper Grace, etc. purposely ignores the fact that the Bible says the person who does nothing is not born again. There's no reason to include that pathetic theology in this discussion. It's a joke.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It seems you believe in on and off justification.
Justified again after each new sin.

No, I do not believe in on and off justification. I believe Hebrews 10:14.

Justification is a one-time for all time gift that the believer receives when they first believe. The believer does not become unjustified every time they sin because the continual forgiveness of God keeps the believer perfect before Him. It's not a process of justification as the Catholics erroneously think it is.

Sanctification (hagiazō) is what is a process, as that same Hebrews 10:14 verse says.

 

[eddif]

Well, as you've often said, good works are a SIGN of belief.
So the opposite must also be true...no good works ARE a sign of UNBELIEF.

So your second paragraph doesn't stand.

We must do good works/deeds in order to remain saved.
Or, apparently by all counts, we no longer believe.

This is called synergy.
Only the reformed believe in monergism.
Other Protestants do not, but we have come to believe in cheap grace and easy believism.
I didn't make up those terms BTW....I got scolded once.

We cheapen God's grace by stating that we need do nothing.
What is God's grace good for anyway if not to embolden us to do His will?

And easy believism...yeah, leave everything up to Jesus so the person has to do nothing and still be saved.

Don’t forget we are bi-polar at times.
Romans 7:25 kjv
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Law in new heart of flesh
Law in new Minf of Christ

We will be delivered at the last trump. The resurrection is not already past.

The law the prophets spoke is an internalized version of the law of Moses.

The law in our hearts is love joy Peace patience gentleness understanding. We get to lay aside our bag of rockes to stone folks with.

Remember auto mechanics.
Knowledge is to know what is wrong
Wisdom is to j know what will fix the problem
Understanding is to not use too much force and destroy the part being restored.
Love is to do the repair without cussing and throwing tools.

Mississippi redneck
eddif