What About Those In Non-Christian Lands Who Have Never Heard The Gospel?

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you perfectly righteous?
A non-sinner?

Yes, I am perfectly righteous and a non-sinner.

The moment I believed the gospel message all the guilt of my sin was forgiven, and the righteousness of God was credited to my account, and so I became sinless and perfect before him (Hebrews 10:14). And I remain sinless and perfect before him through the completed but ongoing intercessory ministry of Jesus continually cleansing me from the guilt of my sin (Hebrews 7:25, Romans 8:34).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So much for gradual sanctification... eh?

Sanctification means to be cleansed and set apart for a holy purpose. That setting apart for that holy purpose happens the moment a person believes:

10And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:10

And we spend the rest of our lives becoming that which we have been set apart to be and do:

14because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:14

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Scripture ALONE does not seem to be working A.
How come there are so many denominations?
How come we all use the same bible and come up with differing doctrine?

We are all, individually, a work in progress:

13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. Ephesians 4:13-14

Some are slower learners than others. Some are more stubborn than others. Some don't bother to read the Bible for themselves for much progress in the knowledge of God to occur and instead are only exposed to the nicely packaged and outlined, narrow indoctrination of a particular denomination.

And so we're all buffeted by the winds of false teachings to one degree or another as the anchor of truth is being set in our lives. But, ultimately, the sons and daughters of God, are all moving toward unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of Christ.

It's a progression. Not a progression toward becoming sons and daughters of God, but a progression toward learning about Jesus and becoming more like him through knowledge (Ephesians 4:21-24, Colossians 3:10).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you believe that once a person is saved they can never forfeit their salvation?

No, I do not believe that, generally speaking, once a person is saved they can never forfeit their salvation. I say 'generally' because I think there are believers who have matured to the point where they will never go back to unbelief, no matter what. What I believe is a person must continue to believe in the ministry and sacrifice of Jesus to remain in the everlasting effect of Jesus' ministry and sacrifice (1 John 2:24-25).

Is it possible for a true believer to stop believing? I'm not totally sure. But as I say, I believe there are believers who aren't ever going to go back to unbelief. All I know is the Bible says it is incumbent on the believer to continue to believe in order to stay in Christ and keep the sinless perfection they received one time for all time and which does not peter out . The fact that Christ's ministry does that for us is the very reason we should continue to believe in so great a promise (Hebrews 4:14, Hebrews 10:23). Because you can't keep that which you no longer believe and trust in (Hebrews 10:26).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The warning is that if we don't obey GOD,
we will not make it to heaven.

Yes, but not because your obedience makes you righteous, and therefore, qualified to enter the kingdom of God, but because a turning away from God in disobedience is the sign of unbelief.

It is your unbelief that will keep you out of the kingdom, not your sinning. For the sinning of the believing person is continually cleansed away by the intercessory ministry and sacrifice of Christ they believe and trust in (Romans 8:34, Hebrews 7:25). And so it is through our believing that our sinless, perfect status before God is maintained, not our works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No.
An unbeliever means one DOES NOT BELIEVE.

Does not believe in what?
An unbeliever does not believe in becoming righteous through the forgiveness of sin through Christ. Instead, they may believe in the false gospel of becoming righteous before God by faithfully doing righteous things, or by not caring about the matter of righteousness altogether.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One is composed of those who believe you are made righteous and, therefore, qualified to enter the kingdom by being forgiven your unrighteousness and receiving the declaration of his righteousness, not by working out your own righteousness. The other denomination is composed of those who believe that you are made righteous and, therefore, qualified to enter the kingdom by working righteousness in yourself through satisfactory performance of various rituals and deeds of righteousness.

Well.
I guess I'm in the second catagory.

Yes, judging by what you say you believe, you are indeed in the 2nd category.

You believe that you become righteous before God, and therefore, qualified to enter the kingdom of God, by being faithfully obedient to do righteous rituals and deeds. This is the theology of the progressive infusion of righteousness that Luther resisted when he received the revelation from God in scripture that the righteousness by which we become righteous in God's sight is God's perfect righteousness credited to us the instant we believe the gospel and receive God's forgiveness, and that we do not gain the righteousness required to enter the kingdom of God by being more and more righteous in our works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What?

If you forfeit your salvation, you forfeit your justification.

Yes, but the better way to say it is, if you forfeit the justification you received through faith in Christ you forfeit the salvation that declaration of righteousness secured for you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well
I like that. I would add riders.
If the earth was seeded by aliens (Gentile background)

I don't believe that because the Bible doesn't say that.
It says this:

7Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being. Genesis 3:7

26From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth... Acts 17:26

 

[Jethro Bodine]

NO.
Not one time and for all.

Hebrews 10:14

In that one verse we see that the believer is made perfectly righteous by Christ's sacrifice, one time for all time, not needing to be made righteous again. And that the believer is being sanctified (not being justified).

I know you don't believe in OSAS.
So what's the issue?
You'd rather just go on disliking the CC for a doctrine they don't even teach....?

...And for what they do.
Sorry, I'm just not into the solemn, regimented, liturgical style of worship. I don't get anything out of it. And I can't contribute anything to it (except my singing - I know I sing good because when I do, everyone turns around and looks at me). But if that's your thing, God bless you.

We are REQUIRED to do good deeds.
James 2:26 Faith without works is dead and of no value to anyone.
Faith ALONE with nothing else does not save.

Why would Jesus have had to teach anything? He could have just said - believe in Me and you'll be saved.
But He didn't say that. He explained HOW we are saved.

Jesus said to keep His commandments.
John 14:15

What are those commandments?
Here are some:

Repent Mat 4:7
Let your light shine (be an example) Mat 5:16

Be reconciled Mat 5:23...

Keep your word Mat 5:37

Love your enemies Mat 5:44...

Do unto others Mat 7:12

Honor your parents Mat 15:4

Forgive Mat 18:21...


and much more...

Did Jesus mean the above?

Yes, we are required to do good works...but not to justify us (make us righteous).

Works are required because that is what Jesus will use at the resurrection, for all the universe to see, to judge us as being a sheep or a goat at his return.

Works of righteousness, specifically love for God and others, are the evidence of having been made righteous by faith apart from works. The faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that will then do works of righteousness (Galatians 5:6), and so those works are the evidence of your salvation by faith, not the procurer of your salvation by works. Luke 7:47,50.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

7Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being. Genesis 3:7

Sorry, meant Genesis 2:7.

 

[atpollard]

except my singing - I know I sing good because when I do, everyone turns around and looks at me

 

[eddif]

I don't believe that because the Bible doesn't say that.
It says this:

7Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being. Genesis 3:7

26From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth... Acts 17:26

My point was the Jews have the oracles of God. They know of One true creator God.

The Gentiles use their fickle carnal mind to try and come up with their pre history and where things come from.

So Jethro, you are a Jewish type thinker. Not that the NT does not contain some creation facts, but some creation facts are listed only in the OT.

Of course you knew all that anyway.

Mississippi redneck
eddif.

 

[eddif]

Since I am being dragged into this ... doctrine saves nobody. God already saved me and then sent a 'teacher' (the Holy Spirit) to guide me into Doctrine [The quest to systematically understand the truths of God]. SALVATION precedes SANCTIFICATION and "Doctrine is part of the "walk" [Ephesians 2:10] that comes AFTER the "saved" [Ephesians 2:8-9]. Without Ephesians 2:8-9, Ephesians 2:10 is pointless "legalism".

So are you saying we walk among the stones? I think it is possible to explain what I just said.

eddif

 

[atpollard]

Question: How is God good or just to abandon to Hell those who have never even heard the gospel?

So which is it ... God's GOODNESS or God's JUSTICE that is violated by refusing to admit UNREDEEMED and UNREPENTANT SINNERS into His heaven?

• How is it GOOD to admit EVIL into Heaven? (Not exile them to Hell.)
• How is it JUST to punish some for their sins and to not punish others when neither has met God's conditions in Romans 10:9-10. [If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.]

The FLAW on the premise of the question is an assumption that God somehow OWES salvation to everyone ... GOODNESS and JUSTICE demand that EVERYONE get exactly the same chance at salvation. The reality is that when Adam sinned, and we all chose to follow in Adam's footsteps and sin ourselves, JUSTICE DEMANDS that we all DIE ... both the First death (physically) and the Second death (eternal separation from God). Adam was forever exiled from Eden for his sin and we are forever exiled from heaven for our sin. That is JUSTICE. Separating His HOLY self from all EVIL (including us) is GOODNESS. Thus God in heaven and sin in hell is the ultimate expression of both GOODNESS and JUSTICE.

That God chose to forgive anyone is MERCY.
To whom does God OWE mercy? Who DESERVES mercy?
Are those that have never heard the Gospel somehow "not sinners" and have earned MERCY from God?

Do those that have heard the gospel all have equal opportunity? (Are your chances the same as those of a runaway forced into prostitution and addiction? Are both of your opportunities the same as the Apostle Peter's?)

[EDIT]: This ended too dark.
Fortunately for US (mankind), GOD IS GOOD and He does choose to show MERCY, freely and to whosoever it pleases HIM to show it (very often not those that WE would have chosen). "So then, it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy." (Romans 9:16) [CSB]

 

[atpollard]

Thank God that he has established a way, through conscience and natural law, to convict and save the person who never hears the message. That is a loving God.

Ultimately it comes back to: "So then, it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy." (Romans 9:16) [CSB]

 

[JAG ..]

[EDIT]: This ended too dark.
Fortunately for US (mankind), GOD IS GOOD and He does choose to show MERCY, freely and to whosoever it pleases HIM to show it (very often not those that WE would have chosen). "So then, it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy." (Romans 9:16) [CSB]

Re the bolded up there:
I stand with you on that 100% with zero reservations.
Long live the mighty and magnificent Westminster Confession of Faith.
All of God's elect were chosen by God BEFORE He created anything:
"For He [God] chose us in him [Christ] before the creation of the world" Eph. 1:4

Middle knowledge and natural law and conscience are only the means whereby
God's elect (worldwide and historywide) are brought to faith in Jesus as their
Savior, and is NOT the primary cause -- which primary cause is what is bolded up
there. In other words, it is God that does the electing, and NOT humans that do the
electing. And again that work of election was done by God BEFORE he created humans
or anything else -- "For He chose us in him before the creation of the world" Eph. 1:4

JAG

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My point was the Jews have the oracles of God. They know of One true creator God.

The Gentiles use their fickle carnal mind to try and come up with their pre history and where things come from.

I understand what you were getting at now.

 

[GodsGrace]

No.

There is not more than one Holy Spirit.
Great.
Agreed.

So why do we all believe something different?

You see, I'm not really asking you, I just am putting it out there for your consideration.
A rhetorical question perhaps.

 

[GodsGrace]

Re the bolded up there:
I stand with you on that 100% with zero reservations.
Long live the mighty and magnificent Westminster Confession of Faith.
All of God's elect were chosen by God BEFORE He created anything:
"For He [God] chose us in him [Christ] before the creation of the world" Eph. 1:4

Middle knowledge and natural law and conscience are only the means whereby
God's elect (worldwide and historywide) are brought to faith in Jesus as their
Savior, and is NOT the primary cause -- which primary cause is what is bolded up
there. In other words, it is God that does the electing, and NOT humans that do the
electing. And again that work of election was done by God BEFORE he created humans
or anything else -- "For He chose us in him before the creation of the world" Eph. 1:4

JAG

Please explain...
Why would the God of the reformed faith require middle knowledge to choose whom to save???