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What Do Christians REALLY think?

S

SputnikBoy

Guest
Homosexuality has been discussed - if 'discussed' is what it can be called - many times on the forum. One thing, however, has always puzzled me and I'd appreciate some responses to the following question.

Do YOU - whoever you may be - believe that homosexuals are no more than 'sexually-deviant HETEROSEXUALS'? Or, are there perhaps those that are and those that are not? If so, how do we determine who is a 'deviant' and who is not?


Please, no stupid or 'robotic' homophobic posts. I feel that this is a pertinent and intelligent question that deserves an equally pertinent and intelligent response. Appropriate reference/s for such responses would be appreciated.
 
Rod,

I know you don't want to hear from me, but I am Christian too and I do think homosexuality is sin because the Bible says so. I do believe it is curable if you ask God and believe you can be cured like alcoholism and any other diseases.

Even if you cannot be cured, you should not be engage in the activity. I am sure God is giving you other blessings you can find meaningful for the Lord. This kind of God I know from the Bible.

God is never unfair.

Sincerely, hitomi
 
I agree.

Though we ought to love homosexuals, we must emulate Christ and call sin sin. I believe that the grace of God can save everyone. And any homosexual is of course sexually deviant, since they were born heterosexual. But when the soul compromises and the mind is lawless, sin abounds. However, as I said, grace abounds much more.
 
Okay. So you both pretty well agree that in every case one's sexual orientation is naturally geared toward the opposite sex. In other words, there is no such thing as a homosexual ...that those who claim to be 'homosexuals' are nothing more than deviant heterosexuals, no ifs or buts ...?

Besides the sparce biblical texts - which I don't believe pertain in any way to one's genetic makeup - do you have evidence for arriving at the 'fact' that EVERYONE is born heterosexual? By the way, one's opinions or one's prejudices don't count on this important topic that affects many, many people.
 
Spute,

The Bible is very clear on this. I don't know how one can see it otherwise.
 
gingercat said:
Spute,

The Bible is very clear on this. I don't know how one can see it otherwise.

Could you please present the scriptures to me that pertain in any way, shape or form to the fact that all human beings are born heterosexual? Could you please point me to scriptures that pertain in any way, shape or form to one's genetic makeup? Can you please point me to the original scriptures that actually use the word *'homosexual'? Not only are these texts NOT 'very clear', hitomi, but they seem to be nonexistent in my Bible. Thanks.

*the word 'homosexual' is a relatively recent addition to the scriptures.
 
SputnikBoy said:
gingercat said:
Spute,

The Bible is very clear on this. I don't know how one can see it otherwise.

Could you please present the scriptures to me that pertain in any way, shape or form to the fact that all human beings are born heterosexual? Could you please point me to scriptures that pertain in any way, shape or form to one's genetic makeup? Can you please point me to the original scriptures that actually use the word *'homosexual'? Not only are these texts NOT 'very clear', hitomi, but they seem to be nonexistent in my Bible. Thanks.

*the word 'homosexual' is a relatively recent addition to the scriptures.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
(NASB translation)
 
gingercat said:
SputnikBoy said:
gingercat said:
Spute,

The Bible is very clear on this. I don't know how one can see it otherwise.

Could you please present the scriptures to me that pertain in any way, shape or form to the fact that all human beings are born heterosexual? Could you please point me to scriptures that pertain in any way, shape or form to one's genetic makeup? Can you please point me to the original scriptures that actually use the word *'homosexual'? Not only are these texts NOT 'very clear', hitomi, but they seem to be nonexistent in my Bible. Thanks.

*the word 'homosexual' is a relatively recent addition to the scriptures.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
(NASB translation)

Thanks for the text, hitomi. According to that list many of us will be hard pressed making it into the kingdom of heaven ...and that includes Paul!

I really MUST raise the fact yet again that the word 'homosexual' is a relatively recent addition to the scriptures. The word did not appear in the early texts and so I again need to refer to one's genetic makeup and whether or not this determines who is heterosexual and who is homosexual. Who or 'what kinds' of people is the above text referring to? I mean, who did Paul have in mind when he made those comments ...heterosexuals behaving badly or homosexuals behaving (perhaps) 'naturally'?

If EVERYONE is born a heterosexual then it might stand to reason that those who commit practices that go against their 'natural desires' may be considered 'suspect'. If, however, one is born homosexual (sexual attraction for the same gender) then would not an attraction for the opposite gender be 'unnatural' for them? Are these (the latter) those to whom Paul refers? I really find the (above) text to be so ambiguous that any unbiased scholar would not - could not - use it to address this issue.

ARE (genuine) homosexuals 'wired that way' from birth or aren't they? I really AM seeking intelligent dialog on this issue.
 
.

Sputnik,
You are in the biggest denial of truth. :roll:
It amazes me how you are just refusing to accept the fact that man with man is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord God JHVH. And how you keep trying to come up with excuses that it's a physical thing. It amazes me how you deny that words in the bible, Those words that clearly show us that God created man to be with woman not another man! Period.



Genesis 2:20- 25
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the LORD God caused
a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Proverbs 28:9
He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Proverbs 15:9
The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.



God gives the stubborn/disobedient what they want! However! God will not always eliminate the "consequences" of sin filled acts. We still must face consequences. BUT Forgivness is available to any one who is willing to come to obedience to The HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD and they REPENT and GO AND SIN NOR MORE.
God heals, but many are faced with no healing for reasons beyond their understanding! But Healing from bondage to sin is not a thing to be taken for granted by fooling around with the devil! By doing that, one only contradicts and is double-minded. A house divided will NOT stand!



Romans 1:22-32
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. :crying:



The wicked choose the things of death (that which is unholy, unrighteous) , instead of the things of life (that which is life everlasting, righteousness) ! HOW SAD! :crying:


REPENTANCE IS THE ONLY WAY to overcome! I pray daily that I don't fall into sin, that the HOLY SPIRIT OF CHRIST JESUS LIVE IN ME AND THROUGH ME! DAILY, I take up my cross, humble myself and pray that I am lead by and FOLLOW THE HOLY SPIRIT OF JESUS.




The Carnal minded are not of God.

Romans 8:4-14
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.



REPENT ! STOP MAKING EXCUSES ! :-?

If someone has a chemical imbalance they need to
GET BALANCED !


We are humans that have altered everything from vegtables to the layers of the earth! We have messed up God's creation so much JUST TO Placate the mind of MAN. This altering of everything from the chemsitry in our bodies, to the chemistry of plants and animals, everything you can think of MAN has tampered with! and you wonder why, there is so little testosterone in some men and you try to say men are born homosexual? :o Lord Help us all!!!!

:roll: OY VAY! :-?



.
 
Sputnik said:
Thanks for the text, hitomi. According to that list many of us will be hard pressed making it into the kingdom of heaven ...and that includes Paul!

No it doesn't include Paul!


IF you read your bible correctly, you will see that PAUL STOPPED SINNING Because he was dead to the flesh. HE DIED TO HIS FLESH AND lived IN CHRIST JESUS. THEREFORE! He sinned no more! Romans is clear that Paul stopped sinning! He mortified his flesh! And was OBEDIENT TO THE HOLY SPIRIT OF CHRIST JESUS LIVING IN HIM.

READ THE BOOK OF ROMANS AGAIN. And don't forget to put those IF's in proper perspective within the context of the verses. :)




Romans 6:1-6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.



Romans 6:15-18
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

.

Doesn't sound like a sinner who continues to live in sin!

Paul OBEYS. He does not disobey! He mortifies his flesh to go on to sin no more. The HOLY SPIRIT OF CHRIST JESUS LIVING IN HIM THROUGH HIM IS THE ONLY WAY HE IS ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH SUCH A PURE CLEAN SIN FREE LIFE!

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.



When a person takes on the HOLY SPIRIT OF CHRIST JESUS THEY DON'T look to continue in their sin! They seek to overcome them! And the HOLY SPIRIT (Living in you through you) IS THE WAY IN WHICH the Temptation to SIN IS RESISTED!


Those who commit to sin are those who do not "RETAIN" the things of God.

Those who Do not "retain" the Word. They don't LIVE by the Word! DAILY. They don't seek continually. They snack on the word every once in a while in stead of daily, continually, they don't make a meal out of it! So they are not growing IN the Holy Spirit as they should be, but they are backsliders. Boy was I like that! And I sturggle daily to stay focused on GOD and NOT ON ME! I thank God that I am getting better at HIS STEADFASTNESS and not my own! Now I am feeding on more of His HOLY Word and less on mine. That old self, the "me". "ME ME ME..... The flesh only wants to gratify the "ME ME ME". Vanity of all Vanities!

And yes! The Apostle Paul has helped me to mortify that carnal minded flesh that I am, that carnal minded person that wants the instant gratification! Instant gratification of the five senses and instant gratification of the material things. etc...

Actually! Paul teaches "how to discipline" the carnal man!
I have learned that It is God's time. NOT MINE! I obey GOD'S TIME. Not mine!
Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.



Repent! the Kingdom of heaven is at hand! :)
Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 10:7
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.



.
 
SputnikBoy,

I think that you have some honest questions, and I also think that you’re looking for specific answers which are really good things. Let’s say for a moment though, that we can’t find any scripture to satisfy your specific question. Does that nullify scripture as a whole? If that’s the case, then I think there would be a lot of loop holes for salvation. Would you agree with that statement?

The way I see it though, is that scripture makes it pretty clear that homosexuality is a sin… So does it really matter why one sins? Let’s say for a moment that one was ‘wired’ that way from birth, does that then justify ones sin? You may not agree, but the only way to justify ones sins happened over 2000 years ago when Jesus hung on the Cross. Likewise, IT was accredited to Abraham as righteousness, and IT would be Abraham’s faith. And so it is that we should be made righteous in our faith through Christ that justifies our sin. Romans 4:23-25

I’d like to look at this from two points of view. First, we are all sinners and here’s a verse that I’m sure that you’re familiar with.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
So think about it for a second… who qualifies for salvation? Simple, Sinners do. And who qualifies as a sinner? Everyone. So, does it really matter what kind of sin it is? To a degree, the answer would be yes because not all sins lead to death.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

So, based on this concept, what sins lead to death and which ones don’t? I think the answer is pretty clear when we look at what it takes to be saved, and that is repentance + Faith + Grace. I don’t see a need to post verse after verse here, but in just about every case I can think of the sinner has to repent before he becomes a Christian. But it doesn’t stop here either…

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Colossians 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

As far as the second point of view… well, here’s enough for now. However, I would like to leave you with a thought. Does it matter why one sins, or is it more important with what ones does after he sins?
 
Relic, I cannot and will not debate this issue with any (a) bigot, (b) fanatic, or (c) emotionalist ...did I just invent a new word?

Stove, while I don't necessarily agree with you I do thank you for your more level-headed approach to the topic. I'll get back with you later.
 
Not a Problem Sputnikboy. I won't be back on till tomorrow nite anyway.

Ohh, and I'm not going to debate anything. We can talk about stuff, but I've lost my desire to debate. If you change your mind, great. If not, then it is what it is.

I'll look forward to your response.
 
Rod,

I would like to give you some more for you to think about if you don't mind.

Do we have to have sexual activity to have good relationships? I can have very close female friend(s) without sexual relation. Why are you so hung up on sexual relation?
 
SputnikBoy said:
Relic, I cannot and will not debate this issue with any (a) bigot, (b) fanatic, or (c) emotionalist ...did I just invent a new word?

Yep you just made up a word. :lol:

Whew! I'm so glad I'm not any of the above! :lol: :D

If you want to continue on ignoring the truth then go right ahead. Many people have shown you truth for well over a year and you still deny it. That's your choice. Oh well, I'm sure many will see right through your denial this time also.


Again, Like I wrote in a previous post:

Relic said:
REPENT ! STOP MAKING EXCUSES !

If someone has a chemical imbalance they need to
GET BALANCED !

We are humans that have altered everything from vegtables to the layers of the earth! We have messed up God's creation so much JUST TO Placate the mind of MAN. This altering of everything from the chemsitry in our bodies, to the chemistry of plants and animals, everything you can think of MAN has tampered with! and you wonder why, there is so little testosterone in some men and you try to say men are born homosexual?
Lord Help us all!!!! OY VAY!

Sorry if I don't tip toe and walk on eggs, and I seem too harsh for you to deal with.

Did you know that even Jesus spoke to some, what strangers to him, and in some cases even to Peter, what might have been deemed as being harsh (fanatical, emotional-ist) ?

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Yep, some truths cuts right through to the bone! It's a bone of contention for many. Now cool your jets and read with an open mind to the truth of the Word of God. There are plenty of scriptures provided in this thread for you to go over.

But if you want to ignore me that's find too. I have no qualms with that. I know you by know... You don't like the way I cut to the core of a matter. And that's okay. Sometimes the truth doesn't "feel" good. :lol:

Don't let the emotions you feel while reading someones post get in the way of facing trying situations. :) It's a lesson I've had to learn around this place. And there have been plenty of times, I have known how trying that lesson can be, also. :)


God bless you SputnikBoy.


.
 
gingercat said:
Rod,

I would like to give you some more for you to think about if you don't mind.

Do we have to have sexual activity to have good relationships? I can have very close female friend(s) without sexual relation. Why are you so hung up on sexual relation?

Actually, hitomi, it isn't ME who is hung up on sexual relationships ...it's Christianity in general that is obsessed by it. I personally don't much care what people do behind closed doors. Besides, it's none of my business.

I absolutely agree with you about fruitful platonic relationships. But, the truth of the matter is that many Christians wouldn't accept two females or two males - or a male and a female for that matter - living together in that sort of a relationship either. Suspicion would get the better of them and the 's' word would rear its ugly head before too long.

I have two friends - one of whom participates in the forum now and again - who lived as male and female in a platonic relationship. They did so for obvious financial reasons (rent and such) but they were censured (had to forego authoratitive positions) by our church (SDA) because they were not believed. The church had absolutely no basis for suspicion other than the fact that .... and ..... were sharing accomodation. I do believe that the church turned a blind eye to the situation until the two announced that they were now 'boyfriend and girlfriend.' The actual 'living' situation (platonic) had not changed but the terminology had. Since I've known both for many years I firmly believe that neither of them EVER 'betrayed' the church. They are now married and have a little boy.

I've been sharing accomodation with two other males (uni students) for several years. For a while there were just two of us. There was no problem as such with the church (there was/is quite an age difference) but the joking and the inuendos were still there. So, even that kind of an arrangement is viewed with suspicion by some. We're living in a very paranoid and suspicious climate and this is one of the reasons that I've developed a 'I couldn't give a d**n what anyone thinks' kind of attitude. People - some fellow Christians in particular - bore me with their Bible-waving and sanctimonious superiority. You COULD be one of them, hitomi, but I wasn't referring to you specifically ...you are hardly boring. :)
 
Thank you for sharing your experiences, rod.

I do believe we have to think about our witness as Christians to others. If financial reason is main reason for such living arrangements, we can find other ways (such as living with your parents). Unfortunately, western countries dont believe in living with their parents either. It is considered immature. I totaly disagree; living alone is so expensive. I dont understand why the western culture has such weired mentality. In asia, we stay with our parents until we get married.

I have 28 year old daughter with 5 year old son. I welcomed her to live with us because she cannot take care of her son decently alone.
 
SputnikBoy said:
Stove, while I don't necessarily agree with you I do thank you for your more level-headed approach to the topic. I'll get back with you later.

Interesting... How much later and will you answer my question as I honestly answered yours?

BTW, that's what I REALLY think and yes, I consider myself a Christian.
 
SputnikBoy said:
Actually, hitomi, it isn't ME who is hung up on sexual relationships ...it's Christianity in general that is obsessed by it.


Rod,

We should be realistic. We have caotic society in both Christian community and secular world. It becoming worse and worse.

Jesus tells us to be salt and light in the world. We should not live by secular world's standard. Not too many are really serious about Jesus' whole teaching. Most of us follow Jesus with take-a-pick type of faith.

"Love' is not just closing our eyes to the wrong doings, rod.

Relic explained very simply and clearly. It may sound harsh but he is speaking the whole truth.
 
GundamZero said:
I agree.

Though we ought to love homosexuals, we must emulate Christ and call sin sin. I believe that the grace of God can save everyone. And any homosexual is of course sexually deviant, since they were born heterosexual. But when the soul compromises and the mind is lawless, sin abounds. However, as I said, grace abounds much more.

I agree with this. However, there are those that would argue one is "born" homosexual. I've had gay friends that have told me this and sincerely believe it to be so. And I have no answer for them.
 
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