What Do Christians REALLY think?

[gingercat]

I WILL ask you, however, how you feel that Jesus would deal with this issue if He were here. Do you think that He would 'heal' the homosexual and make them 'straight'?

Yes, I believe He would heal them if they asked.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I WILL ask you, however, how you feel that Jesus would deal with this issue if He were here. Do you think that He would 'heal' the homosexual and make them 'straight'?

Yes, I believe He would heal them if they asked.

'Healing' implies that homosexuality is a sickness to begin with. And, if it IS seen to be a sickness, then should not some leniency and understanding be used by Christians when dealing with this issue? I don't see (genuine) homosexuality as a sickness, I quickly add ...more an issue of genetics. WHATEVER it is I see little reason for Christians to get into such a twist about it. One's standing with God is between the individual and God.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Do YOU - whoever you may be - believe that homosexuals are no more than 'sexually-deviant HETEROSEXUALS'? Or, are there perhaps those that are and those that are not? If so, how do we determine who is a 'deviant' and who is not?

Do I think that is possible for a person to be born a homosexual? Since at the present time there exists no conclusive scientific evidence that suggest that there exists a “gay†gene I would have to say no, however; even if a “gay†gene was found that would not matter. I would still believe it to be a sin because the Bible makes that clear.

According to the Genesis account, God made Adam and Eve. When Adam and Eve sinned (disobeyed Him and ate from the tree He told them not to eat) all of creation was corrupted. Include in the corruption was the offspring of Adam and Eve. Based on that fact, that leads me to believe that the human genetic code was corrupted as well. That being the case that would explain the existence of a “gay†geneâ€â€if one existed.

In any event, I believe that with God anyone can overcome any sin. Based on what I have read from Scripture, when someone accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior they are given two types of grace:

Saving graceâ€â€grace that saves one from eternal damnation
Enabling graceâ€â€grace that enables a person to over come any sin

So how should a Christian act toward a homosexual? First and foremost they should be loving, caring and compassionate. A person who is a homosexual is a personâ€â€not “sin on two legs.†Being judgmental and being overly critical is both unproductive and unlovingâ€â€and above all else un-Christ-like.

Since most people who are practicing homosexuals are not Christian, the first thing I would do is try to show them the love of Christ and share the gospel with them. When and if, that person becomes a Christian then I believe they have the ability to overcome their homosexuality. I think that because, as I state before, I believe when a person is saved they receive two types of graceâ€â€saving grace and enabling grace. Of course that reality can be applied to any sin, not just homosexuality.

The bottom line is we as Christians should strive to show the love of Christ to others, including homosexuality. The sad reality is far too many Christians fail in that capacity and spend way to much time being udgmental and condemningâ€â€which is something we are not to do anyway.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Thanks Nocturnal. That was a thoughtful post.

 

[gingercat]

Rod,

I have been through many churches and denominations, and found the SDA is the one of a few denominations I believe is close to being biblical.

They are not so popular compared to other denominations. If you change denomination like to Methodist I believe you will change your opinions. They don't tolerate any kind of criticisms.

I picked Methodist because they voice very similar to what you have been protesting, and other denominations are getting down to their level of Christianity too because they are voicing the secular demands.

Christian community is mostly about popularity and not the loyalty and obedience to Jesus' teachings, IMHO.

 

[Vic C.]

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

Sputnik... :o It was simply a rebuttal for when you called me a liar. My way of forgiving you for calling me a fibber.

1 John 4:1 was revelent in the sense that God askes us to test the spirits. I was asking you to to test your spirit to see if your beliefs on the act of homosexuality are in line with God's word. Paul gives to answers in the passage I quoted. I'm at a loss as to why you can't understand what is Paul is clearly trying to convey. I as a new Christian at the time I "found" that passage, picked up on it's meaning immediately, considering that just a few months' prior, I was of the mindset of "to each his own" and "live and let live".

You want Paul's passage in plain English? How about I post it using Peterson's The Message?

Romans 1:18-29 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson

Ignoring God Leads to a Downward Spiral

18-23
But God's angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough.

Open your eyes and there it is! By taking a long and thoughtful look at what God has created, people have always been able to see what their eyes as such can't see: eternal power, for instance, and the mystery of his divine being.

So nobody has a good excuse. What happened was this: People knew God perfectly well, but when they didn't treat him like God, refusing to worship him, they trivialized themselves into silliness and confusion so that there was neither sense nor direction left in their lives.

They pretended to know it all, but were illiterate regarding life. They traded the glory of God who holds the whole world in his hands for cheap figurines you can buy at any roadside stand.

24-25
So God said, in effect, "If that's what you want, that's what you get." It wasn't long before they were living in a pigpen, smeared with filth, filthy inside and out.

And all this because they traded the true God for a fake god, and worshiped the god they made instead of the God who made themâ€â€the God we bless, the God who blesses us. Oh, yes!

26-27
Worse followed. Refusing to know God, they soon didn't know how to be human eitherâ€â€women didn't know how to be women, men didn't know how to be men. Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with menâ€â€all lust, no love.

And then they paid for it, oh, how they paid for itâ€â€emptied of God and love, godless and loveless wretches.

28-32
Since they didn't bother to acknowledge God, God quit bothering them and let them run loose. And then all hell broke loose: rampant evil, grabbing and grasping, vicious backstabbing. They made life hell on earth with their envy, wanton killing, bickering, and cheating.

Look at them: mean-spirited, venomous, fork-tongued God-bashers. Bullies, swaggerers, insufferable windbags! They keep inventing new ways of wrecking lives.

They ditch their parents when they get in the way. Stupid, slimy, cruel, cold-blooded.

And it's not as if they don't know better. They know perfectly well they're spitting in God's face.

And they don't careâ€â€worse, they hand out prizes to those who do the worst things best!

 

[Vic C.]

Rod,

I have been through many churches and denominations, and found the SDA is the one of a few denominations I believe is close to being biblical.

They are not so popular compared to other denominations. If you change denomination like to Methodist I believe you will change your opinions. They don't tolerate any kind of criticisms.

I picked Methodist because they voice very similar to what you have been protesting, and other denominations are getting down to their level of Christianity too because they are voicing the secular demands.

Christian community is mostly about popularity and not the loyalty and obedience to Jesus' teachings, IMHO.

I agree. The United Methodist Church and some Episcopalian denominations have become some of the biggest proponents of the homosexual movement... at least here in the US Mainline denominations.

I could be wrong, but I recall one of our members here saying a while back that this line of thinking has infiltrated some SDA churches as well.

 

[peace4all]

I am sort of happy that there are christian organizations and denominations that are reaching people with open arms.
By accepting homosexuals, drunks and other sinners etc, into their communities, atleast they are bringing them closer to god, and not pushing them away.

Christians need to follow the path of Christ. Teach love and respect, but not force peopel to follow. Forcing someone to christ, is not letting that person accept Christ into their heart.

 

[Vic C.]

I am sort of happy that there are christian organizations and denominations that are reaching people with open arms.
By accepting homosexuals, drunks and other sinners etc, into their communities, atleast they are bringing them closer to god, and not pushing them away.

Christians need to follow the path of Christ. Teach love and respect, but not force peopel to follow. Forcing someone to christ, is not letting that person accept Christ into their heart.

Accepting them is one thing, condoning and continuing to enable their lifestyles IS NOT what Jesus teaches. :-? That does not bring them any closer to God at all.

If one does not come to the Lord with a repentant heart, they are in danger of hearing this from Jesus:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[ArtGuy]

Do I think that is possible for a person to be born a homosexual? Since at the present time there exists no conclusive scientific evidence that suggest that there exists a “gay†gene I would have to say no, however; even if a “gay†gene was found that would not matter. I would still believe it to be a sin because the Bible makes that clear.

The most likely case, based on studies of links between homosexuality in various family members, is that sexual orientation isn't a genetic thing. It is, rather, a result of development in the womb, and influenced by certain hormones being fed into the developing fetus. So while it's not a genetic thing, it's still something largely determined prior to birth. There is a demonstrable difference in the brain physiology between gays and non-gays, so we're pretty sure that sexual orientation is primarily something you're hardwired with. There are exceptions, of course.

 

[Lewis]

As for the comment about Christians always putting down or damning the homosexual. I will put it like this, I go by what the Bible says. And if the Bible says something I have every right to say it also. So if Christians are against homosexual behavior, they have every right to be. Because the Bible is against it. I have some in my family male and female and a few friends, and I don't hate them, I love them, but I can't condone homosexuality. And one more thing the secular world is pushing homosexual behavior, TV shows gay parades
and don't even mention marriage that makes my blood boil.

 

[SputnikBoy]

As for the comment about Christians always putting down or damning the homosexual. I will put it like this, I go by what the Bible says. And if the Bible says something I have every right to say it also. So if Christians are against homosexual behavior, they have every right to be. Because the Bible is against it.

There are any number of homosexuals, Lewis, who are virgins. You and other Christians probably condemn them anyway just by virtue of their orientation. This truly makes me sick.

I have some in my family male and female and a few friends, and I don't hate them, I love them, but I can't condone homosexuality. And one more thing the secular world is pushing homosexual behavior, TV shows gay parades
and don't even mention marriage that makes my blood boil.

And that last sentence proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's YOU, Lewis, and not the Bible that has the problem with homosexuals. Or is that 'righteous' anger? :wink:

As for going by everything the Bible says on ALL issues, that's nonsensical rhetoric. Please don't try to tell me that you've never had the desire to cook a kid goat in it's mother's milk ...now come on! (Exodus 23:19)

 

[SputnikBoy]

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

Sputnik... :o It was simply a rebuttal for when you called me a liar. My way of forgiving you for calling me a fibber.

Gotcha. And the reason that I called you a fibber (and not a liar which is more harsh a term than I would ever have intended) is that you said that MANY biblical texts refer to this topic. In actuality, there are VERY few and even those ones don't address the question of my original post.

1 John 4:1 was revelent in the sense that God askes us to test the spirits. I was asking you to to test your spirit to see if your beliefs on the act of homosexuality are in line with God's word. Paul gives to answers in the passage I quoted. I'm at a loss as to why you can't understand what is Paul is clearly trying to convey. I as a new Christian at the time I "found" that passage, picked up on it's meaning immediately, considering that just a few months' prior, I was of the mindset of "to each his own" and "live and let live".

I really have no desire to ‘test my spirit’ as if to compete with ‘the (perhaps sanctimonious) spirit’ of others on this forum, vic. Why imply that ‘my spirit’ is not in keeping with God’s Word anyway? I have compassion for others, I have the capacity for forgiving others, and I also try not to make judgments against anyone. I also acknowledge the complexities of genetics and other intricate factors that could well determine WHO becomes ‘WHAT’. I'm also modest.

Perhaps God may even approve the likes of someone such as me to be the balance between the assumed piousness of those who constantly have their noses in the Bible and those who put their Bibles down for long enough to recognize that all may not be so black and white and clear cut after all.

As for Paul …I'm just a tad thick, vic (hmmm, that rhymes), and often the words of Paul (in particular) don't jump out at me with the clarity that they might. Besides that, I don't cling to the words of a mere mortal as some Christians seem to do when it comes to Paul. I don't see Paul as being any different than Ellen G. White to be perfectly honest. By all accounts she, too, seems to have written many words of Christian wisdom but at the end of the day she's merely a human being. Yes, Paul IS in the Bible and EGW isn’t but it is MEN who chose the books to include and those not to include. Or, perhaps God also inspired those who constructed the Bible?

I even question God in the Old Testament as it often reveals Him as being little more than a tyrant. Love? There may be smatterings of what might be loosely called 'love'. But, anyone who would 'zap' someone for trying to prevent the Ark of the Covenant from toppling over, ordering the death of someone for collecting sticks on the Sabbath, etc. etc. is not my idea of a loving Father. Someone to fear, sure, but hardly someone to love. Sorry, that's the way I feel, especially these days. Maybe I think too much. Or, perhaps, this is due to the possibility that I've allowed Satan to sneak into my life ...? That's probably what most Christians would say anyway.

Jesus, on the other hand, is more the example of someone worthy of worship. I find it hard to believe that He and God are related. I guess for me it's more a case of being able to relate to Jesus' human side than to relate to the caricature form of an angry God who sits 'up there' with a bevy of thunderbolts in his quiver ready to hurl them at everyone who sins. Although Jesus had many opportunities to do so, He never mentioned a word about homosexuality. Had He done so I may be more inclined to follow His clear instruction than the many ambiguous instructions of the Old Testament and the many ambiguous instructions contained in Paul's writings. Thanks to Paul we now have many Christian denominations telling one another how right they are and how wrong everyone else is.

You want Paul's passage in plain English? How about I post it using Peterson's The Message?

The problem with the following is that it's been translated into 'Peterson' English more so than 'plain' English. Once again it’s man’s interpretation and ‘interpretation’ is what I have a problem with in the first place.

Romans 1:18-29 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson

Ignoring God Leads to a Downward Spiral

18-23
But God's angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough.

Open your eyes and there it is! By taking a long and thoughtful look at what God has created, people have always been able to see what their eyes as such can't see: eternal power, for instance, and the mystery of his divine being.

So nobody has a good excuse. What happened was this: People knew God perfectly well, but when they didn't treat him like God, refusing to worship him, they trivialized themselves into silliness and confusion so that there was neither sense nor direction left in their lives.

They pretended to know it all, but were illiterate regarding life. They traded the glory of God who holds the whole world in his hands for cheap figurines you can buy at any roadside stand.

24-25
So God said, in effect, "If that's what you want, that's what you get." It wasn't long before they were living in a pigpen, smeared with filth, filthy inside and out.

And all this because they traded the true God for a fake god, and worshiped the god they made instead of the God who made themâ€â€the God we bless, the God who blesses us. Oh, yes!

26-27
Worse followed. Refusing to know God, they soon didn't know how to be human eitherâ€â€women didn't know how to be women, men didn't know how to be men. Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with menâ€â€all lust, no love.

One of the main problems facing us today is NOT homosexual promiscuity but the immorality within many heterosexual relationships …relationships between those of opposite gender (’normal’ attraction) couples that are based on nothing more than lust. Homosexual promiscuity pales in comparison to the wide-spread immorality that occurs among ‘natural’ gender relations that Christians seem to turn a blind eye to. How many Christians can’t get enough of the movie magazines (both print and electronic media) whose main selling point is ‘who is having it off (sex) with whom’? The electronic media and movies are raking in $zillions from Christians and non-Christians alike who support the sex, the greed, the lust, the profanity and the general ‘ungodly’ entertainment industry. Now, why on earth do we need to single out ‘homosexual lust’ when there’s enough ‘heterosexual lust’ around to sink an armada of battleships?

And then they paid for it, oh, how they paid for itâ€â€emptied of God and love, godless and loveless wretches.

Peterson is evidently a classic homophobe and the above demonstrates dramatic rhetoric anyway. That never impresses me. I don’t believe (TRULY!) that one who is born with an attraction toward the same sex is, by virtue of that fact, a sinner. So, how can I therefore respond to the above in any way other than the way I did?

28-32
Since they didn't bother to acknowledge God, God quit bothering them and let them run loose. And then all hell broke loose: rampant evil, grabbing and grasping, vicious backstabbing. They made life hell on earth with their envy, wanton killing, bickering, and cheating.

And the above is supposed to apply to those whose genetics (or other) have wired them with an attraction toward the same gender? Are we to believe that they have NOW become rampant evil, grabbing, grasping, vicious backstabbing, wanton killing, bickering and cheating individuals? Ridiculous to the extreme!

Look at them: mean-spirited, venomous, fork-tongued God-bashers. Bullies, swaggerers, insufferable windbags! They keep inventing new ways of wrecking lives.

They ditch their parents when they get in the way. Stupid, slimy, cruel, cold-blooded.

And it's not as if they don't know better. They know perfectly well they're spitting in God's face.

Oh my. I got confused long ago. At which point did we leave the page pertining to this topic and drift off into the realms of 'rhetoric-land'?

And they don't careâ€â€worse, they hand out prizes to those who do the worst things best!

Hmmm ...I think I prefer the ambiguity of Paul’s writings, vic.

 

[Lewis]

SputnikBoy whats the problem here, that you have about people who don't condone gay sin. And that comment you made about there are some gays who are virgins, is a spooky statement.

 

[SputnikBoy]

SputnikBoy whats the problem here, that you have about people who don't condone gay sin. And that comment you made about there are some gays who are virgins, is a spooky statement, of the I wonder kind.

Lewis, this is your previous post:

As for the comment about Christians always putting down or damning the homosexual. I will put it like this, I go by what the Bible says. And if the Bible says something I have every right to say it also. So if Christians are against homosexual behavior, they have every right to be. Because the Bible is against it. I have some in my family male and female and a few friends, and I don't hate them, I love them, but I can't condone homosexuality. And one more thing the secular world is pushing homosexual behavior, TV shows gay parades
and don't even mention marriage that makes my blood boil.

You mentioned homosexual 'behavior' to which I responded to the fact that not all homosexually oriented people PRACTICE homosexual behavior anyway. In other words, they are virgins by virtue of the fact that they don't participate in sexual behavior. They do, however, have an ATTRACTION for the same gender. And Christians STILL condemn (damn) them anyway. Savvy?

My original question for this thread was: Do Christians believe homosexuals to be 'deviant heterosexuals'? Although no one seems to have answered this question with a 'yes' or a 'no' or an 'I don't know' we do seem to have gone off along the same tack as usual with this topic. THIS would imply that - YES - Christians generally DO believe that homosexuals ARE really deviant heterosexuals. Or, probably more to the point, Christians DON'T CARE if homosexuals are deviant heterosexuals or are not ...they're still DEVIANT.

I've come to the conclusion that trying to initiate an actual study of a very REAL ISSUE in a reasonable and possibly scientific manner is impossible for the Christian in general. The Bible always gets in the way and I don't believe that it should. Oh boy, did I just set myself up for lashings of Christian wrath or didn't I?

 

[ArtGuy]

And that comment you made about there are some gays who are virgins, is a spooky statement.

How is the idea that some people desire to have intercourse with the same sex, but refrain, "spooky"? Isn't that what you would prefer they do?

 

[sehad]

And that comment you made about there are some gays who are virgins, is a spooky statement.

How is the idea that some people desire to have intercourse with the same sex, but refrain, "spooky"? Isn't that what you would prefer they do?

I really don't find this spooky as much as difficult to grasp. I have heard it said that homosexuality is much like a spirit that affects someone. It is possible to have a spirit vexing you and not be possessed by a spirit, such as depression or anger or such. If this is true or not, I can't say. But, Jesus said that if you're not only guilty of adultry if you do it but if you also look on married woman with lust in your heart. I would say that the same applies in this case also.

 

[SputnikBoy]

And that comment you made about there are some gays who are virgins, is a spooky statement.

How is the idea that some people desire to have intercourse with the same sex, but refrain, "spooky"? Isn't that what you would prefer they do?

I really don't find this spooky as much as difficult to grasp. I have heard it said that homosexuality is much like a spirit that affects someone. It is possible to have a spirit vexing you and not be possessed by a spirit, such as depression or anger or such. If this is true or not, I can't say. But, Jesus said that if you're not only guilty of adultry if you do it but if you also look on married woman with lust in your heart. I would say that the same applies in this case also.

What do you find difficult to grasp ...that a homosexual can be celibant? Why would this be any different than that of a celibant heterosexual?

I believe that Jesus made the comment (about lusting in the heart) for more than just the obvious reason that lusting isn't a good trait to have. He was - I believe - alluding to the hypocrisy of many people in regard to their condemning others for the VERY THINGS that they are guilty of ...if only in their hearts. HYPOCRISY - more than anything else - was what seemed to irk Jesus. He would no doubt have a field day if dealing with today's Christians!

 

[destiny]

And that comment you made about there are some gays who are virgins, is a spooky statement.

How is the idea that some people desire to have intercourse with the same sex, but refrain, "spooky"? Isn't that what you would prefer they do?

I really don't find this spooky as much as difficult to grasp. I have heard it said that homosexuality is much like a spirit that affects someone. It is possible to have a spirit vexing you and not be possessed by a spirit, such as depression or anger or such. If this is true or not, I can't say. But, Jesus said that if you're not only guilty of adultry if you do it but if you also look on married woman with lust in your heart. I would say that the same applies in this case also.

Sehad, don't mention the boogy man because he is nonexistant in most christian circles. They would rather believe it's a gene or even God himself causing perversion, but never does satan even enter into the equation.
I find that amazing myself considering one of Jesus' main ministries was casting out demons.
A carnal mind needs something that it can grasp on a natural level, anything spiritual is usually stumbled right over and ignored.

 

[ArtGuy]

Sehad, don't mention the boogy man because he is nonexistant in most christian circles. They would rather believe it's a gene or even God himself causing perversion, but never does satan even enter into the equation.
I find that amazing myself considering one of Jesus' main ministries was casting out demons.
A carnal mind needs something that it can grasp on a natural level, anything spiritual is usually stumbled right over and ignored.

I would mention that science seems to side with homosexuality being determined prior to birth, but then science is probably just the domain of Satan.