What Do Christians REALLY think?

[SputnikBoy]

SputnikBoy, I think that you have some honest questions, and I also think that you’re looking for specific answers which are really good things. Let’s say for a moment though, that we can’t find any scripture to satisfy your specific question. Does that nullify scripture as a whole? If that’s the case, then I think there would be a lot of loop holes for salvation. Would you agree with that statement?

Could be but we should not simply assume that one's genetics are to be considered such a loop hole. The above are merely your words formed into a sentence. They are not divine.

Christians (many of them) use their Bibles as a law book that they wield like a weapon. But …only for CERTAIN things it would appear. While every other ‘abomination to God’ (of which there are many – and that includes the rather ‘lowly’ act of ‘lying’) seems to be all but ignored by Christians, the ‘sin’ of homosexuality stands out like a beacon. It has become an obsession by Christians, so –yes – I most definitely DO want scriptures to satisfy my specific question.

The way I see it though, is that scripture makes it pretty clear that homosexuality is a sin… So does it really matter why one sins?

That’s the way you see it and that’s fine …that’s your perspective on the issue. But, I don’t agree that the Bible is ‘pretty clear’ at all that genetically engineered homosexuality IS a sin. You DO realize, of course, that some mods get really nervous when this issue is raised so one has to be very careful how one expresses their opinion just in case – heaven forbid – one might be seen to be promoting homosexuality.

So, I’m rather walking on eggshells here and you know it. I’ll make my point yet again that homosexuality is a taboo topic among Christendom that far surpasses ANY other so-called ‘abomination’ in scripture. If this doesn’t suggest something to you, Stove (you’re a smart cookie), then it should.

Let’s say for a moment that one was ‘wired’ that way from birth, does that then justify ones sin?

Huh? We have opposing opinions on this issue of genetics, Stove. If one is ‘naturally’ predisposed to an attraction for the same gender, why then would that be construed as a sin? Please understand that my entire ‘argument’ here is that the Bible gives no more reference to the complex issue of genetics than it does to designing a rocket to take us to Mars.

Without the Bible and without the ‘norms’ of the society within which we live, we would not necessarily kill or steal or dishonor our neighbor or behave like wild animals. Our conscience is a powerful part of us and it dictates what is morally right and what is morally wrong. In that situation (minus the Bible and the ‘norms’ of society) would two homosexuals who were ‘that way’ from as far back as they remember live a life of celibacy based on their conscience alone? Or might they fall in love with each other and not think anything ‘immoral’ in that? I don’t know. I’m just being hypothetical.

You may not agree, but the only way to justify ones sins happened over 2000 years ago when Jesus hung on the Cross. Likewise, IT was accredited to Abraham as righteousness, and IT would be Abraham’s faith. And so it is that we should be made righteous in our faith through Christ that justifies our sin. Romans 4:23-25

That’s nice, Stove, and so typically ‘Christian’ and rhetorical. But it does NOT address my original question. Remember, while I can’t speak for everyone or every situation, I don’t hold to the view that (genuine) homosexuals are heterosexuals behaving badly.

I’d like to look at this from two points of view. First, we are all sinners and here’s a verse that I’m sure that you’re familiar with.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
So think about it for a second… who qualifies for salvation? Simple, Sinners do. And who qualifies as a sinner? Everyone. So, does it really matter what kind of sin it is? To a degree, the answer would be yes because not all sins lead to death.

Yet again, we are not referring here to one’s sins in general. Or, at least, I’m not. Of course we’re all sinners. I (again) don’t hold to the mainline Christian belief that homosexuality in and of itself (in the true sense of the genetic meaning) is a sin. I’m sorry. I’m not meaning to argue for the sake of it even though ‘the Relics’ of this forum seem to think so. Like Mr.Spock of Star Trek, I prefer logic more so than wispy touchy-feely emotional stuff. If I see logic absent from anything – including the Bible – I will question it. I may well be frowned on as a ‘heretic’ but that isn’t my problem.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

But first we need to establish just what IS a sin, don’t we? If I were to look for ‘the sin of homosexuality’ from the Bible alone, the sparse texts that might even address this topic are so ambiguous that I would not be convinced. The ‘sin’ part of homosexuality has come from within ‘Christianity’ itself as well as society in general. Society started ‘the witch-hunt’ on homosexuals first. The scriptures came second.

Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of Christians who froth at the mouth over this issue would be hard pressed to even locate the scriptures that may pertain to this issue if put on the spot. They would need to do a Bible Concordance search because they haven't a clue. Even then they would not know EXACTLY what the texts are referring to. Tell me that I’m wrong.

So, based on this concept, what sins lead to death and which ones don’t? I think the answer is pretty clear when we look at what it takes to be saved, and that is repentance + Faith + Grace. I don’t see a need to post verse after verse here, but in just about every case I can think of the sinner has to repent before he becomes a Christian. But it doesn’t stop here either…

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Colossians 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

As far as the second point of view… well, here’s enough for now. However, I would like to leave you with a thought. Does it matter why one sins, or is it more important with what ones does after he sins?

Absolutely, Stove. But, assuming that I had a ‘sexual’ attraction for specific (certainly not ALL) people of the same gender that I had never asked for, why would I assume that this was ‘a sin’ or, more to the point, ‘unnatural’ to begin with? Answer: because the ‘norms’ of society have dictated this to me since day one. People are acquainted with this concept before they ever pick up a Bible. I would have been raised with the understanding that my ultimate aim in life is to pair off with someone of the opposite sex, fall in love, marry, have children and settle down (yawn).

My children would also be expected not to deviate from this ‘norm’. To do otherwise would be frowned upon. Everyone needs a partner of the opposite sex – particularly within Christian circles – or the tongues will start wagging. And, on it goes. We forever have to live up to expectations, particularly so if we’re a member of a church whose population are, first and foremost, members of the society in which they live. If I arrive at church each week with a friend of the same gender it won’t be too long before the rumors start flying.

By the way, I am not a homosexual (although Relic does sound kinda cute :smt007 ) – not that I need to justify myself to anyone – and I look at this issue purely from a logical and a scientific perspective. The Bible offers me no answers in this regard and so I still question this obsession by Christians to damn other human beings to hell because of a possible difference in chromosomes.

 

[stovebolts]

Thanks for the detailed post. I appreciate your time.

It's late, I'm tired and I won't be online until tomorrow nite. Please have patience as I will respond.

Thanks,

 

[sehad]

SputnikBoy, after reading the posts I am still unsure where you stand on this issue. Do you believe it is always a sin? Do you believe it is not a sin? Do you believe it's a sin for some and not for others? To me, homesexuality is a sin BUT the problem comes from people's views of it. Sin is sin, and no sin(save blasphemy) is "ranked" higher or lower than the other. You stated that rumors would fly due to you showing up at church with another person of the same gender. I have friends that lived together for about 20 years almost. I will have to admit that we did have some jokes about it(They were close close friends of mine and all of the jokes were usually made to them and not about them). One of them recently married and moved out, so obvioulsy the rumors or jokes were not true as we knew they were, but to people that didn't know them it could have been a real issue. As I stated earlier, I believe that homesexuality is sin but SHOULD NOT be viewed any differently than from someone lieing to you or someone that fornicates, but sadly society dictates that it is. You should not view someone that is homesexual any differently than someone that has unwedded sex, but sadly this is very very much easier said than done. Even for Christians and especially in the South.

 

[SputnikBoy]

SputnikBoy, after reading the posts I am still unsure where you stand on this issue. Do you believe it is always a sin?

I can't say. I don't know everyone in the world - or their genetic makeup.

Do you believe it is not a sin?

If one's genetics dictate an attraction for the same gender I don't believe that this - in and of itself - is a sin. Promiscuity or immorality, however, by either orientation would be a sin. But then, I sin in other ways all the time. I don't know about you. So, having admitted this, I can hardly point the finger at others. Can you?

Do you believe it's a sin for some and not for others?

Possibly. As I say, I don't know the genetic details of every human being on earth.

I DO believe that there ARE 'genuine' homosexuals - that is, those that are predisposed sexually toward, or at least attracted to, specific individuals of the same gender. I would not have initiated this thread if I didn't believe this with all my heart. In fact there is not a doubt in my mind that this is the case. I have known several 'gays' personally and have heard many accounts and testimonies of others that lead me to believe that they were/are not deviant HETEROSEXUALS. Christians constantly imply that homosexuals are REALLY heterosexuals PRETENDING to be homosexuals. Is that not true?

Christians (generally) DON'T listen to others. They say that God would never allow for someone to be born with such 'mixed up' genetics and those that use the 'genetic excuse' for their 'gayness' are therefore liars. So, they (homosexuals) have TWO 'abominations of God' (homosexuality (?) and lying) leveled at them. IS everyone genetically (and physically) 'perfect' at birth? Hmmm. Do you know, sehad, that a great proportion of suicides are accomplished by homosexual young people? True. Many of them are driven to this tragic consequence (I believe) by inner contempt for themselves (exacerbated by society's expectation pertaining to sexual 'norms') and good Christian people who have no hesitation in condemning them to hell. Are people driven to such extremes (suicide) because they're FAKING 'being gay'? Again ...hmmm.

Why do Christians do this? Because they love the sinner but hate the sin? Hogwash! That would have to be one of the phoniest catch-cries of Christianity. The majority of Christians have their own agenda that has NOTHING to do with love. I believe in calling a spade a spade and this is the way I see it. While I can't speak for the 'genuine-ness' of everyone who might call themselves a homosexual - or everyone who calls themselves a Christian for that matter - I DO know that any number of individuals are the real McCoy. Furthermore, I don't believe the Bible addresses this issue the way that many Christians think that it does. What the Bible DOES address is immorality in general (MAINLY of a heterosexual nature) and one (two?) references to 'unnatural' sexual behavior. But ...'unnatural' as compared to what?

To me, homesexuality is a sin BUT the problem comes from people's views of it. Sin is sin, and no sin(save blasphemy) is "ranked" higher or lower than the other.

That's right ...each sin weighs the same and EVERY sin is an abomination to God, not just those that we conveniently select for others. :

BUT (and I know that I sound like a worn-out recording), is one's attraction to the same gender - an orientation that is beyond the control of the individual - a sin? Or, does it not become a sin until one acts on it? But then, what about lusting? That doesn't require a physical act. Have we REALLY committed adultery merely by 'thinking' about it? It would appear so, according to the words of Jesus. So, in this regard at least the heterosexual and the homosexual are on the same level playing field. Most of us have lusted at one time or another. And, according to our good friend Paul, it's better to marry than to burn in lust. Now, that's sound advice for a marriage made in heaven if ever I heard it!

More and more homosexuals today desire a committed relationship to ONE person, an indication that 'love' and not merely 'lust' is the predominant drawcard. In the past they've had a bad rap (probably deservedly so by some, even many) due to rampant promiscuity, multiple partners, flamboyant and 'in-the-face' gay mardi-gras' and such. But, promiscuity is by no means monopolized by homosexuals. The majority of the clients I assist as welfare coordinator of my church are single females with children of multiple partners. Many seem to go from one 'boyfriend' to another. When one leaves, as they invariably do, there is another 'boyfriend' in the wings ready to take his place. It's THIS kind of immorality that the Bible targets consistently. We could start a thread on this but it wouldn't be nearly as popular. ;-)

You stated that rumors would fly due to you showing up at church with another person of the same gender. I have friends that lived together for about 20 years almost. I will have to admit that we did have some jokes about it (They were close close friends of mine and all of the jokes were usually made to them and not about them). One of them recently married and moved out, so obviously the rumors or jokes were not true as we knew they were, but to people that didn't know them it could have been a real issue.

Even though none of their business. Why is it that Christians are such busybodies?

As I stated earlier, I believe that homesexuality is sin but SHOULD NOT be viewed any differently than from someone lieing to you or someone that fornicates, but sadly society dictates that it is. You should not view someone that is homesexual any differently than someone that has unwedded sex, but sadly this is very very much easier said than done. Even for Christians and especially in the South.

Christians can - and often do - spend too much time looking for the splinter in someone else's eye than concentrating on the log in their own.

 

[stovebolts]

Christians can - and often do - spend too much time looking for the splinter in someone else's eye than concentrating on the log in their own.

Agreed, but don't get so caught up with the logs in everyone elses eye that you forget (or justify) the splinter in your own :

Sorry, won't be able to respond as I'd like to your last post to me. Ran out of time today. Please accept my apologies.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Christians can - and often do - spend too much time looking for the splinter in someone else's eye than concentrating on the log in their own.

Agreed, but don't get so caught up with the logs in everyone elses eye that you forget (or justify) the splinter in your own :

I truly hope that I'm not doing that.

Sorry, won't be able to respond as I'd like to your last post to me. Ran out of time today. Please accept my apologies.

That's okay, Stove. I don't think that you need to respond anyway. We could keep this going indefinitely and I don't think that's a good idea.

I appreciate the comments of everyone but I would have LOVED to have heard from someone who can relate personally to what I've been talking about. I know, however, how tough it might be to come forward when the environment might be somewhat hostile. But, I still love ya!

 

[gingercat]

Rod,

You did not repond to my last post.

We have this very tolerant society that anything goes. I hope you don't think that's a loving mentality. It is very secular and most churches are adoping it. You are saying that churches are hostile, I believe the opposit.

Most churches are succoming into your kind of Christianity. It is very trendy practice. I hope you are not becoming one of them.

It seems that you are so called liveral Christian more than SDA, IMHO.

Please forgive me if it sounds harsh or rude; but this is my honest opinion.

 

[VonKarman]

SputnikBoy, after reading the posts I am still unsure where you stand on this issue. Do you believe it is always a sin?

I can't say. I don't know everyone in the world - or their genetic makeup.

Do you believe it is not a sin?

If one's genetics dictate an attraction for the same gender I don't believe that this - in and of itself - is a sin. Promiscuity or immorality, however, by either orientation would be a sin. But then, I sin in other ways all the time. I don't know about you. So, having admitted this, I can hardly point the finger at others. Can you?

Do you believe it's a sin for some and not for others?

Possibly. As I say, I don't know the genetic details of every human being on earth.

I DO believe that there ARE 'genuine' homosexuals - that is, those that are predisposed sexually toward, or at least attracted to, specific individuals of the same gender. I would not have initiated this thread if I didn't believe this with all my heart. In fact there is not a doubt in my mind that this is the case. I have known several 'gays' personally and have heard many accounts and testimonies of others that lead me to believe that they were/are not deviant HETEROSEXUALS. Christians constantly imply that homosexuals are REALLY heterosexuals PRETENDING to be homosexuals. Is that not true?

Christians (generally) DON'T listen to others. They say that God would never allow for someone to be born with such 'mixed up' genetics and those that use the 'genetic excuse' for their 'gayness' are therefore liars. So, they (homosexuals) have TWO 'abominations of God' (homosexuality (?) and lying) leveled at them. IS everyone genetically (and physically) 'perfect' at birth? Hmmm. Do you know, sehad, that a great proportion of suicides are accomplished by homosexual young people? True. Many of them are driven to this tragic consequence (I believe) by inner contempt for themselves (exacerbated by society's expectation pertaining to sexual 'norms') and good Christian people who have no hesitation in condemning them to hell. Are people driven to such extremes (suicide) because they're FAKING 'being gay'? Again ...hmmm.

Why do Christians do this? Because they love the sinner but hate the sin? Hogwash! That would have to be one of the phoniest catch-cries of Christianity. The majority of Christians have their own agenda that has NOTHING to do with love. I believe in calling a spade a spade and this is the way I see it. While I can't speak for the 'genuine-ness' of everyone who might call themselves a homosexual - or everyone who calls themselves a Christian for that matter - I DO know that any number of individuals are the real McCoy. Furthermore, I don't believe the Bible addresses this issue the way that many Christians think that it does. What the Bible DOES address is immorality in general (MAINLY of a heterosexual nature) and one (two?) references to 'unnatural' sexual behavior. But ...'unnatural' as compared to what?

To me, homesexuality is a sin BUT the problem comes from people's views of it. Sin is sin, and no sin(save blasphemy) is "ranked" higher or lower than the other.

That's right ...each sin weighs the same and EVERY sin is an abomination to God, not just those that we conveniently select for others. :

BUT (and I know that I sound like a worn-out recording), is one's attraction to the same gender - an orientation that is beyond the control of the individual - a sin? Or, does it not become a sin until one acts on it? But then, what about lusting? That doesn't require a physical act. Have we REALLY committed adultery merely by 'thinking' about it? It would appear so, according to the words of Jesus. So, in this regard at least the heterosexual and the homosexual are on the same level playing field. Most of us have lusted at one time or another. And, according to our good friend Paul, it's better to marry than to burn in lust. Now, that's sound advice for a marriage made in heaven if ever I heard it!

More and more homosexuals today desire a committed relationship to ONE person, an indication that 'love' and not merely 'lust' is the predominant drawcard. In the past they've had a bad rap (probably deservedly so by some, even many) due to rampant promiscuity, multiple partners, flamboyant and 'in-the-face' gay mardi-gras' and such. But, promiscuity is by no means monopolized by homosexuals. The majority of the clients I assist as welfare coordinator of my church are single females with children of multiple partners. Many seem to go from one 'boyfriend' to another. When one leaves, as they invariably do, there is another 'boyfriend' in the wings ready to take his place. It's THIS kind of immorality that the Bible targets consistently. We could start a thread on this but it wouldn't be nearly as popular. ;-)

You stated that rumors would fly due to you showing up at church with another person of the same gender. I have friends that lived together for about 20 years almost. I will have to admit that we did have some jokes about it (They were close close friends of mine and all of the jokes were usually made to them and not about them). One of them recently married and moved out, so obviously the rumors or jokes were not true as we knew they were, but to people that didn't know them it could have been a real issue.

Even though none of their business. Why is it that Christians are such busybodies?

As I stated earlier, I believe that homesexuality is sin but SHOULD NOT be viewed any differently than from someone lieing to you or someone that fornicates, but sadly society dictates that it is. You should not view someone that is homesexual any differently than someone that has unwedded sex, but sadly this is very very much easier said than done. Even for Christians and especially in the South.

Christians can - and often do - spend too much time looking for the splinter in someone else's eye than concentrating on the log in their own.

It's interesting that you bring all this out, because I've had and still do have to some degree an inner struggle with understanding the whole issue of whether one is "born gay" and predisposed to homosexuality, or if it in fact is a lifestyle "choice". I really do not know.
You make some very valid points.

 

[sehad]

Whether or not someone can be "born" gay is questionable. Strange that it's been only recently that this has come about. Before about 100 years ago or so, you never heard of anyone being "born" gay. It is biblical that homosexuality is a sin PERIOD. Now whether someone is genetically predisposed one way or the other, I don't know. The bible does refer a man wanting a woman being the "natural" affection. But even is someone can be "born" gay, does this excuse the point that the bible says that homosexuality(which one of the main reasons that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed) is a sin? I will admit SputnikBoy that society dictates that this is more unacceptable than other sins, which should not be. And as to why Christians are "busy bodies", I think there is really no difference in a Christian busy body and a non Christian that talks about others, just Christians are frowned on more for doing this than those that aren't because Christians aren't supposed to be this way. Sadly, Christians see people that don't act like or do the things that are "Christianlike" and instead of befriending them, they talk about them for what they are doing. In my opinion, this is just as much a sin as homosexuality. In Romans chapter 1, backbiters are listed among the sins as haters of GOD and inventors of evil things so GOD does take this seriously.

 

[Vic C.]

By the way, I am not a homosexual (although Relic does sound kinda cute ) – not that I need to justify myself to anyone – and I look at this issue purely from a logical and a scientific perspective. The Bible offers me no answers in this regard and so I still question this obsession by Christians to damn other human beings to hell because of a possible difference in chromosomes.

First off, no one is damning anyone to Hell... that's not our job. Secondly, we have been down this road many times and I am honestly sick of it and contemplating locking future threads on this subject. Passage after passage after passage has been posted showing CLEARLY that the act of homosexuality serves NO purpose in the Godly scheme of things and they also show the act of homosexuality to be an abomination to the LORD.

Third... Relic is female, silly. Haven't you picked up on that?

In God's words, the act of one male knowing another or one female knowing another is a sinful act and condoning it is not tolerated on these forums. :-?

 

[destiny]

What I find amazing is how unbelievers and people who condone homosexuality will post topic after topic on the subject, and then try to say christians are obesessed with it and can't let it go. :-?
I think the truth of the matter is they are really determined to convert people to their way of thinking, and refuse to move on until this is accomplished.

 

[Vic C.]

What I find amazing is how unbelievers and people who condone homosexuality will post topic after topic on the subject, and then try to say christians are obesessed with it and can't let it go. :-?
I think the truth of the matter is they are really determined to convert people to their way of thinking, and refuse to move on until this is accomplished.

Destiny, this very evening as I was coming home from work, I was thinking along the same lines. I find when one is so single-minded on a particular subject, they can become obsessed with it. A persons' obsession can affect their rationality. They in turn, convince themselves something isn't true or convince themselves that something is acceptable to God.

 

[SputnikBoy]

By the way, I am not a homosexual (although Relic does sound kinda cute ) – not that I need to justify myself to anyone – and I look at this issue purely from a logical and a scientific perspective. The Bible offers me no answers in this regard and so I still question this obsession by Christians to damn other human beings to hell because of a possible difference in chromosomes.

First off, no one is damning anyone to Hell... that's not our job.

THAT implication is always there, vic, whether it's put into actual words or not. What ARE people saying then ...that homosexuals are going to heaven? There are only two options.

Secondly, we have been down this road many times and I am honestly sick of it and contemplating locking future threads on this subject.

It will be a shame if you do, vic. If we can't discuss important issues as adults just because it makes you nervous then this is not a forum worth participating in.

Passage after passage after passage has been posted showing CLEARLY that the act of homosexuality serves NO purpose in the Godly scheme of things and they also show the act of homosexuality to be an abomination to the LORD.

'Fraid not, vic. There is no such passage after passage after passage concerning this issue in the Bible. You're fibbing. :

And you say that YOU are getting sick of the topic. I"M sick of the word 'abomination' being the target word for homosexuality when it is used to a greater extent on other common (petty?) sins such as lying. The truth of the matter is that SIN, period, is an abomination to God, NOT just certain sins. I can't imagine sometimes why God bothered creating us in the first place since we're ALL of us abominations to Him. "There is none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:10)."

Third... Relic is female, silly. Haven't you picked up on that?

Actually, Stove told me that in a very nice PM. Well, she sounds kinda butch. :smt055

In God's words, the act of one male knowing another or one female knowing another is a sinful act and condoning it is not tolerated on these forums. :-?

My original post addressed this issue in a manner that I'd hoped would initiate a thoughtful, intelligent discussion. Whether you like it or not, vic, there ARE 'genuine' homosexuals out there who would like Christians to remove their blinders, take their heads out of the Bible for a moment, and try to understand that they are who they are through no asking of their own.

I've been a Christian for almost 18 years and, while I'll continue to believe in Jesus Christ and take Him as my Savior, I'm on the verge of leaving Christians and organized Christianity to it as I can't take this form of dogmatic Christianity too much longer. If I'm wrong then God forgive me.

 

[SputnikBoy]

What I find amazing is how unbelievers and people who condone homosexuality will post topic after topic on the subject, and then try to say christians are obesessed with it and can't let it go. :-?
I think the truth of the matter is they are really determined to convert people to their way of thinking, and refuse to move on until this is accomplished.

If the only thing my posts on this issue have done is to make you believe this then I've failed miserably. Shame on me.

 

[destiny]

I've been a Christian for almost 18 years and, while I'll continue to believe in Jesus Christ and take Him as my Savior, I'm on the verge of leaving Christians and organized Christianity to it as I can't take this form of dogmatic Christianity too much longer. If I'm wrong then God forgive me.

You speak of "taking" Jesus as your savior like he's some kind of get out of hell free pass.
Has He accepted you? Have you forsaken everything else, taken up the cross to follow ONLY Him?
You know sputnik as harsh as this might sound, you don't seem to be able to decipher what sin is....maybe you do need to do some re-evaluating.
I personally get sick of people giving christianity a bad name also, especially those who make God powerless and standardless, and no different than the world.
As well intentioned as you might be toward homosexuals, it's your brand of "christianity" that keeps them bound in their sins because your god has no power to deliever or standards of holiness.
May you find something better suited for you.
:-?

 

[Vic C.]

Passage after passage after passage has been posted showing CLEARLY that the act of homosexuality serves NO purpose in the Godly scheme of things and they also show the act of homosexuality to be an abomination to the LORD.

'Fraid not, vic. There is no such passage after passage after passage concerning this issue in the Bible. You're fibbing. :

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." (or say - : )

PLEASE, read the following passage carefully.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

When I was first saved, I was in the car with a fellow brother in Christ; we were listening to Focus on the Family. The topic... Homosexuality. Gene pulled into a parking lot of a convenience store to get some coffee. As he was in the store, I picked up my Bible and opend it to THE VERY PASSAGE I QUOTED ABOVE! I wasn't looking for it. I was awestruck and almost speechless.

When Gene got back the car, I told him what had just happened. He just turned to me and smiled.

If everyone would refrain from posting, I would like you, Sputnik, to explain to us exactly what this passage says to you. Yes, this is a test; a test of your spirit.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Go for it. Lets see how you rationalize your way out of what this passage is saying. Know though, that there is a danger in rationalizing Scripture and the key is in the 1 John verse I posted.

God bless.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Actually, hitomi, it isn't ME who is hung up on sexual relationships ...it's Christianity in general that is obsessed by it.

Rod,

We should be realistic. We have caotic society in both Christian community and secular world. It becoming worse and worse.

Jesus tells us to be salt and light in the world. We should not live by secular world's standard. Not too many are really serious about Jesus' whole teaching. Most of us follow Jesus with take-a-pick type of faith.

"Love' is not just closing our eyes to the wrong doings, rod.

Relic explained very simply and clearly. It may sound harsh but he is speaking the whole truth.

Is this the post you said that I hadn't responded to? My computer has been more down than up during the past several days (spyware, adware, and other nasties) but I am trying to play catch-up with those who may have asked something of me.

I don't know how long I'll remain posting because, to tell you the truth, the lack of understanding by professed Christians toward other human beings is really dragging me down. I don't normally talk this way so no need for anyone to accuse me of being overly dramatic. This is VERY real to me and I'm appalled that very few even WANT to discuss the issue objectively.

Anyway, I'm not sure what kind of response I can give to your post, gingercat. I WILL ask you, however, how you feel that Jesus would deal with this issue if He were here. Do you think that He would 'heal' the homosexual and make them 'straight'? Would He tell them that they were never to experience 'feelings' for the same gender ever again ...otherwise they're lost? What would Jesus do, do you think?

By the way, Relic explained nothing, He (she?) merely quoted scriptures without an ounce of compassion or understanding for others who may well be 'who they are' through NO CHOICE OF THEIR OWN. Sorry, hitomi, that's all I want to say. I'm very weary.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I've been a Christian for almost 18 years and, while I'll continue to believe in Jesus Christ and take Him as my Savior, I'm on the verge of leaving Christians and organized Christianity to it as I can't take this form of dogmatic Christianity too much longer. If I'm wrong then God forgive me.

You speak of "taking" Jesus as your savior like he's some kind of get out of hell free pass.
Has He accepted you? Have you forsaken everything else, taken up the cross to follow ONLY Him?
You know sputnik as harsh as this might sound, you don't seem to be able to decipher what sin is....maybe you do need to do some re-evaluating.
I personally get sick of people giving christianity a bad name also, especially those who make God powerless and standardless, and no different than the world.
As well intentioned as you might be toward homosexuals, it's your brand of "christianity" that keeps them bound in their sins because your god has no power to deliever or standards of holiness.
May you find something better suited for you.
:-?

You're probably right, destiny. And I really DO appear to be a wretched individual giving Christianity a bad name based on most of the responses I've received on this thread. May I one day become the Christian you and others on this forum believe yourselves to be.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Passage after passage after passage has been posted showing CLEARLY that the act of homosexuality serves NO purpose in the Godly scheme of things and they also show the act of homosexuality to be an abomination to the LORD.

'Fraid not, vic. There is no such passage after passage after passage concerning this issue in the Bible. You're fibbing. :

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." (or say - : )

Well ...okay ...not sure what that means.

PLEASE, read the following passage carefully.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Sorry, vic, the above sounds like the writings from a very old book that I can't relate to in modern terms. Honest! Very little of the above makes any sense to me and doesn't appear to address the topic at all. This seems to be one of those 'clutching at straw' texts that basically sounds like gobble-de-gook. I wouldn't want to use it as fuel to propel my spaceship.

Tell you what, though ...if you or someone else can decipher those texts into something more '21st Century' I would so much appreciate it. Maybe then I can respond with something meaningful. I'm serious, vic, I have no idea what - specifically - those so-called 'homosexual' texts are all about. You may have to spoon-feed me. :

When I was first saved, I was in the car with a fellow brother in Christ; we were listening to Focus on the Family. The topic... Homosexuality. Gene pulled into a parking lot of a convenience store to get some coffee. As he was in the store, I picked up my Bible and opend it to THE VERY PASSAGE I QUOTED ABOVE! I wasn't looking for it. I was awestruck and almost speechless.

When Gene got back the car, I told him what had just happened. He just turned to me and smiled.

If everyone would refrain from posting, I would like you, Sputnik, to explain to us exactly what this passage says to you. Yes, this is a test; a test of your spirit.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Go for it. Lets see how you rationalize your way out of what this passage is saying. Know though, that there is a danger in rationalizing Scripture and the key is in the 1 John verse I posted.

It's presently very late here down-under (2:30am) and perhaps I'm sleepy, but, does that text (1 John 4:1) have anything to do with this topic? You've thrown me out a challenge and I don't know what you want from me. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something.

 

[destiny]

I've been a Christian for almost 18 years and, while I'll continue to believe in Jesus Christ and take Him as my Savior, I'm on the verge of leaving Christians and organized Christianity to it as I can't take this form of dogmatic Christianity too much longer. If I'm wrong then God forgive me.

You speak of "taking" Jesus as your savior like he's some kind of get out of hell free pass.
Has He accepted you? Have you forsaken everything else, taken up the cross to follow ONLY Him?
You know sputnik as harsh as this might sound, you don't seem to be able to decipher what sin is....maybe you do need to do some re-evaluating.
I personally get sick of people giving christianity a bad name also, especially those who make God powerless and standardless, and no different than the world.
As well intentioned as you might be toward homosexuals, it's your brand of "christianity" that keeps them bound in their sins because your god has no power to deliever or standards of holiness.
May you find something better suited for you.
:-?

You're probably right, destiny. And I really DO appear to be a wretched individual giving Christianity a bad name based on most of the responses I've received on this thread. May I one day become the Christian you and others on this forum believe yourselves to be.

I can know God and proclaim to be a christian, and i'm not ashammed of that.
FYI, I don't believe that certain forms of being attracted to the same sex are "choices", especially when you hear people saying they've felt that way for as long as they can remember to early childhood.
Theres a book called "They Shall Expell Demons" by Derik Prince, this explains my position as well.
He gives a testiomony of what happens when a guy struggling with homosexuality after salvation comes to his office for help.
It's very interesting, and this is where we've absolutely missed it.
Order the book!!